The Meaning of Life

Welcome to Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. And, uh, you know, before we got on this recording, we were just discussing what should we talk about today? And Jim kind of threw out a topic and, he was talking, well, it doesn't really matter what he talks about because we're going to go with my topic. Not that it's a competition or anything, but it was diametrically opposed to and tell what we're going to talk about. And so I thought I'm to start off with, go, Jim, let's, of talking tactical and strategy, we should talk about what is the meaning of life? So we're going down a deep, deep.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Discussion, maybe, maybe not, who knows, we'll be surface or deep. We'll see how we end up.

Yeah. And I love that Lawrence, because that's exactly right. When we were, you know, in pre-production all three minutes of it before we got on, on a recording, said, listen, this is the experience I had. And Lawrence just said, listen, I, I had a totally different topic to talk about. And I went, okay, let's do that. Let's go with that. Let's see where that takes us and being open to it. So what, what a great conversation and topic to talk about, about. meaning of life and it's the purpose of life. so yeah, have you, what, what was the catalyst for that for you?

Well, yeah, so the catalyst was for me, I usually go on say YouTube and try to find some educational stuff, know, as books is meaningful for you, I kind of like just kind of watch certain videos that are, you know, that are meaningful to me. And I swear I've had at least three videos that had the meaning of life in somewhere in the title that, you know, one was on Elon Musk, it was an interview and there was another one. I'm like, what is going on? And this is on a span of the last say 48 hours. And I thought, you know what, this maybe is calling me. And actually I will share two stories to kind of begin this. So last week, same time, seven days ago, I was playing paddle and I was playing paddle with a couple of friends and also the owner of where I usually play paddle at. And I was playing with him, the owner, and I was playing against my two friends. And in the middle of the game, sort of maybe a quarter of the way of the game, it 8.30 in the morning, we, my, my, uh, the owner, uh, my partner, he was getting a little bit dizzy, which is, know, sometimes can't home, you know, common, especially at our age, you know, sometimes you look up for too long and you're waiting for a ball to kind of come down and you know, it just, there's just things that kind of just like, kind of phase out a little bit, but this lasted a little longer than I thought. And then I, so I gave him a break, you know, when I say give me, cause us men, we tend to just continue playing like, we'll be fine. We'll be fine. Right. We're like, no, no, no, this is a little bit, you know, like,

keep going. Yeah, it's all right, mate. Walk it off. Walk it off. Yeah.

I'm going to go get a drink of water just to kind of buy you 30 seconds just to kind of get you, you know, a little bit of time. And then it happened again, which as I felt was kind of strange. So anyways, the next day he messages me and said, Hey, can we have a rematch next week with the same players? I wasn't playing my best. My father just passed away.

Oh.

and it happened when we were playing. And you're like, yeah, exactly. While we were playing. So, all right, is that coincidence? I don't know. Like, is that kind of woo woo stuff? Maybe, right? But the thing is, is that it happened around the time when we were playing and his father passed away unknowingly. He didn't know until obviously after the game. So, okay, second story. Yesterday I was walking with a friend.

while you're playing.

And he was just recently in uh India doing a bike tour from one place to another. I don't know the cities with Richard Branson and he was, uh we were having a chat and talking about like they were just chatting, you know, at one time he was riding with Richard for like two hours and they were just chatting about life and you know, you know, partners and stuff like that. anyways, Richard was talking about his wife. I can't remember how many years now, I think 50 years or something. And you know, just like the frustration sometimes she's not taking. Well, let me finish the story. Give me away the ending here. So no, no, no. So here's the thing, right? So we were talking about the wife and anyway, so on the second to last day of this week long trip, Richard Branson eats it on the bike, right? He just gets pummeled onto the ground and the medical team said, hey Richard, think

since she passed away. She just passed away. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Spoiler. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Spoiler.

you know, there's some ligament damage here. think you got to get that sewn up or something like that. So he, uh, so the team advised him to fly out. So he left the day early, uh, from, from this event to go to London and to go to the hospital, which ends up that his wife also ended up in hospital at the same, at the same hospital. So he decided, so what they did was that they actually had lunch together and then she does the next day. Like, So you just think about Richard Branson's life and not coincidence or whatever, like all these things have happened to him. So this is the thing about imperfection, right? As we talked about this wabi-sabi thing about imperfection, sometimes we kind of judge it and we kind of give it like, this is not perfect, da-da-da. But I'm blown away by that story, because 24 hours in listening to this story, I didn't know his wife passed away, but basically you think about it. If Richard Branson didn't fall, right? Didn't like eat it.

smoke.

Right? Which would have been a terrible thing. You know, you think of any, anyone's getting an injury is like, Oh man, that's like, this sucks. And you know, it's one of his events, you know, he's got to leave day early. You can think how all the disappointment of all the people that were there, you know, he had to leave early, da da da, right? He ends up in the same hospital um where his wife is. They actually get to have one last lunch together. Right. And she unexpectedly passes away. Wow. Right. You think about, you know, all these really weird coincidence. So anyways, man, I don't know, this week has been kind of, I don't know, weird in a way. And all these little things are just happening. And I thought, let's talk about life. What is this meaning? What are we here? So anyways, I'll let you dissect all that, those stories.

Okay. Okay. Great topic. So yeah, I am, I'm really sorry to ruin your sport. The story there. I, I just the way the lead up, went, but, what a, what a, what an amazing explanation. And I know he had gone on record to talk about a lot of the basis of the relationship that he had to his wife and how special they were. I, my wife pretended just recently, just, she was talking about that. We were talking about it and how he was paying reference to her and,

No, no, no, that's alright.

Uh, respect to her. So I don't know, maybe is that some karmic even up to go, Hey, we want to give you one last memory to go out on, or I don't know. I don't know. Like there are so many unanswered questions. that synchronicity? that like Providence? Is that kind of like, um, some kind of. Karmic. I don't know. There's, there's factors at play. You know, I think that. I've often, I've often spoken to people who don't have a belief system that there is more to what we are here. And it's very nihilistic. They just go, you do something. What's the point? And then you die, you know, and there's other people who. Filter life events through their faith, their belief, their, their global view of life. And that kind of makes more sense. You know, I was talking to a coaching client earlier today who, um, who lost his father. Uh, relatively young and, now he, he's got a young child of his own and he's, he's getting this like, like these constant messages, like I need to talk to young men and I need to, and I need to talk to them about those kinds of experiences about my journey through the path. What I learned being the child on either end of this, being the child who lost a father, now the father of a son. And there's, so much wisdom about that. There's so many.

Hmm.

both so much wisdom, but then also some pain that will actually be lent, lent into in the discovery and the conversation of that. So I think certainly talking about this is helpful because up until the most, you know, last 2000 years, 2000 years, wisdom was passed on through stories and that's how wisdom basically was, was passed through. um, yeah, that I I'm trying to get my head around that story specifically with Richard Branson, cause that's like,

Mm-hmm.

I got like a hair on the back of my head. just, my neck just stood up. As you said that I went, Oh, there's something in there about that. So.

Yeah, like I guess, you know, there's, there's a couple of different schools of thoughts, right? Like one is like, you know, is our life already predetermined and everything kind of exists, you know, already planned or is that that there is no prediction in our life and our life is just totally random. And I don't know, I sit, I've always kind of thought about that. And I feel like I, I, I sit in like right between those two kind of like contrasting viewpoints, which is one, I think there's like a deterministic of, and maybe I can't sit. I don't know if you can actually sit in both lines, but let's say, I feel I've always felt that there is a certain destiny or path or some sort that is not necessarily predicted, but there's potential there, right? But every time we make a choice, but it's also given to the choice of the individual, right? So as a uh spiritual being living in this world, I feel like I actually have the choice and responsibility to make the choices that's right for me in those moments. And not that they're right or wrong, but every choice I make, creates different branch, right? There's like a different branch kind of occurs. And it reminds me of that movie adjustment. It's called the Adjustment Bureau. I think it's with Matt Damon. And you know, like every time he chooses something, another branch kind of occurs. And, and I feel like that's sort of what actually happens, right? And in our life is like, I believe anyways, is again, is all comes down to belief, which is another interesting point we can kind of talk about. But it's it's that

Yes.

There are certain paths and I do believe that we are there. We do have a specific purpose, whether we believe in that or not, but doesn't mean that you actually get to live it if you choose not to. And so that's sort of where I kind of sit. I don't know how you feel about.

Hmm. Yeah, look, I agree. I it's funny because I was always, I had this belief that an idea comes through you. And if it comes through you you don't act on it, it will pass on to somebody else. And, you know, often where you, where an example of that would be quite often people would say, Hey, I had that idea. I had this idea about this wheelbarrow 12, you know, 12 months ago and I didn't act on it. And now it's, it's gone through another form. I think ideas sometimes. There's a collect, we're getting pretty, pretty deep through here, but there's a collective consciousness that develops and you can tap into that. If you're connected to that, if you are open to things, we're not talking about being gullible. We're not talking about jumping in shadows. I'm talking about this collective consciousness that we know is out there. And if you're tapped into that, if you're connected to the super highway or the concepts of that opportunities, synchronistic experiences will show up that will open you up to another. Reality another portal so to speak so to me that that's always how I've looked at it is the more connected I am to that Sometimes these little winks in the universe or winks in life will tap You know we'll tap you on the shot and go hey pay attention here or this and that to me is the difference between a Predetermined path and one that you actually choose on your own

Yeah, I was actually been listening to Rick Rubin a little bit, watching a little bit of Rick Rubin's interviews lately. And I'm not sure why I've been attracted to it, but he talks a lot about that, you know, where it's not like he's the career, you know, for those of you who don't know, Rick Rubin is one of the most prolific, most probably one of the most successful producers, music producers in the world. I think Def Jam Records or something like that. mean, he's producing, but he doesn't, he has no, and he fully admits this. He doesn't have any.

Yep. Yep.

musical like inkling on his own. He just has tastes, like he just has this ability to be able to find artists that just feels like it would resonate. But he talks a lot about where it's a synchronist in the energy of like, everything is just out there for us to kind of like tune into if you choose to tune into it. But it's also not, and he also admits that it's not actually ours. Like it's not, it's just out there and it's you just being the channel.

Hmm.

to really reflect upon that, to start channeling that energy into a work of art. And through that medium, which is through you, then all of a sudden the artist form, but it may be like, so for example, if I take an idea and it comes from me, where you, Jim, you take the same idea and it comes from you, it most likely you're gonna create two different things um because of the filter, which is us, the artists who we individually are. puts it out there and then now it kinds of changes form. But the energy, the source itself, uh we're getting very deep here, but the source itself is the same in its essence.

Yeah. Yeah. And, know, I haven't, I've been aware of Rick Rubin's work for a long time, but one of the, haven't really gotten deep into him specifically, but I did a hit, listened to an interview he did with Joe Dispenza a few months ago and that was phenomenal. It was a really good, I'll send one through to, I'll send it through to you you want to listen to it. But that, that blew my mind because it explained

Hmm. Oh, wow. Yeah, I'll love to listen to it. Yeah.

what you're talking about now in so much depth and Rick was, he was just leading it and Joe Dispenza with his skillset was able to expand on it in a different concept and form. And look, I'll be, I'll be upfront and say, look, these guys are a lot more, that's their wheelhouse a lot more than it is mine. uh However, that doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to dip into that and be open to that and, and, and keep expanding and learning in myself. So I agree. There are times where You know, when I'm stuck in a rut and I'm thinking in a very linear way and I'm, and, that keeps me constricted, but when I'm expanded, I do what you're talking. I suddenly see the patterns and the connections and the, the, the routines and the, um, the, the coincidences that I go, well, is it just that, or is there, is the purpose of life to understand yourself more as the purpose of your life to understand your own purpose? What's it open to? Is it open like, You can go all Buddhist and go, well, this is just a life lesson and a journey until another life, which is their, their spiritual beliefs as well too. And the karmic lessons that you have to learn through in this lifetime will determine what you do next time. So that's, that's, you know, if you haven't guessed already, like we, we're pretty comfortable in a three piece suit talking, um, business stuff, but every now and again, you know, something like the two events that you mentioned, um, Lawrence make you sit up and take notice and go, okay, what else is going on here?

Yeah, there's two directions I wanna kinda go, but I wanna adjust this one first, which is, I think of our human bodies, we both studied the human body in depth, and we understand that the makeup of who you are, any of us, any human beings, is made up of trillions and trillions of cells working in harmony together, working together to what forms us as a human being. And I feel like in a macro scale, the universe or the earth itself is sort of similar, right? That we're just like trillions of beings kind of working somewhat together. We just don't know that, right? Like my skin cell doesn't know what my kidney cell's doing necessarily, but it's like there's some interconnect. So my belief, anyway, again, I'm gonna preface this by saying it's my belief that we are all interconnected in some way, but it doesn't mean that we all have to like each other. We don't all have to like understand that we just, that we actually have to know that that's what we're doing. And I feel like our joint purposes are like, if each individual cell has their own purpose, and if you start to lean into at least focusing in on trying to see what that purpose is and fulfilling that, the entire universe will be better for it. Now, I will preface the other part, which is we need to also understand that we may never know our purpose. I mentioned this story many times at the moment, so I don't need to go through it again, but it's more just recognizing like it's the pursuit of the purpose, not necessarily achieving your purpose. So that's sort of where our thoughts.

Yeah, totally. yeah, and that's great. That's a great distinction there because I agree. You sometimes you don't make sense of it. That's the, that's the spiritual journey of trying to unfold and learn and having the courage to keep asking questions you might never actually have an answer to. But that's the unfolding and the evolution of us as, as beings as we're constantly expanding and working. But a lot of the time, interesting like A lot of this stimulation for this kind of thought either comes from an event. You know, there's an old saying, something comes into your life and something comes out of you. Right. So this event, sometimes tips us on our access and makes us look at life in a totally different way. And if you look back through history, sometimes people ask bigger questions of themselves and of life. And they've gone through a really challenging time, either personally or globally, when, someone You know, when someone goes back through a horrific experience, they look back and say, well, my life changed as a result of that experience. And now it led me to these kinds of questions, whereas other people spiral and never recover from those. So to me that that's a really interesting frame to look at as well. And you've obviously paid attention to these two events and ask it stimulated, ask a question. It's probably in your thought consciousness, your algorithms supporting that now. And so you're getting this positive um confirmation bias.

Yeah.

You know, uh and that suddenly leads you down that whole pathway in Revitol.

It's true though. It's I mean, let's play it. Let's, let's recognize where AI does play a role in here to kind of feed into my echo chamber to myself and my own thoughts. Um, but it is a, but you know, the AI I haven't searched for anything like this, right? I let's be right. So I didn't actually go and search for meaning of life or name. It just literally popped up. Now I know as soon as I clicked the one video, right, it's going to reinforce that. So I have no doubt about that. So I understand that, but you know,

All right, OK.

The coincidence is, you know, this one video, the first video I clicked onto versus, uh, you know, the, what's been randomly happening. Um, actually to be honest with you, I didn't connect all the dots until we were been on recording of all these things that have been happening. didn't, it was just like, meaning of life just kind of came popped up to me, like literally maybe half an hour ago when I was eating my lunch. And, and then it was like this whole thought like, ah, maybe that would be a good topic to talk about. But then as soon as I got on and when we were a pressed recording, you will see me all of a sudden.

Yeah, yep. Yep, yep.

If you go back to it, I didn't come up with those two stories until we got started. I went, oh yeah, there's these two stories that I just heard, you know, in the last week that I, should probably share. And that's how it got to kick.

Yeah, and that's... And you know, and you know, it's one of the things that we do. was talking, we've make it perfectly clear. Part of what we do when we deliberately do that is we come up with a theme and topic. So what you're seeing is us going through this. like if it if it was a different topic, if it was a subject matter podcast, but this is one specifically where you're seeing this evolution of our thought processes. And why I declare that is because often so many times people are trying to, let's say they're trying to create content. And they so stuck in the, like, we're just going, Hey, we're just going to get go. We're going to go and we'll work it out as we're going along. And that in and of itself is a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of our, our purpose as well too, where we go, Hey, if we can, we can encourage people to just get in there and get stuck and do it, it'll help out. So that's, that's part of the motivation. And that's, doesn't surprise me. go, Hey, the stories came to me because we already in motion.

Yeah, and Yeah, well, this is the creativity part, the creativity and also the creation of what we're talking about, right? This is the streams of consciousness that are actually out there. And as soon as we start talking, I was like, oh yeah, I need to grab that and actually kind of embody it here. So I guess one of the earlier comments you made at the beginning of this, you sort of said something about, you know, people who believe there's something in life or some spirituality, and then there's some people who just don't believe and were just like here on earth for temporary time and that's it.

Yeah.

I wonder, like obviously I don't believe that and I assume that you don't believe this based on the conversation you've had with me. I wonder like how. I'm trying not to judge it, I'm like, just, I'll give you my thoughts. My thoughts around this is that if you don't believe that there is, if everything's just random, we just happen to be here, da da da, all this is happening, I find it harder. For me, I find it really hard, mostly because of lack of meaning. And maybe that's what it is, and that's what I want to kind of get to. It wasn't like making it wrong, it's just like, I would find it tough just because there's this lack of meaning, and I like meaning. And if I'm wrong,

Yeah, yeah.

I almost want to, I'd rather live my life with a belief, and this is all beliefs, because no one can prove it, that there was some sort of purpose or there's some sort of meaning uh in the life that I had. Anyways, that's sort of my thought. How do you think that through?

Uh, yeah, I'm the same. I have to, I have to see the good in life and people, and I have to feel like I have a meaning because that then allows me to make sense of the good times, the bad times, the challenging times and realizing that, um, it's all part of a life experience as opposed to, uh, well, you know, you live a life and then you die. me, it's like, okay, how do you evolve as a person? So there has to be. Meaning and I, I, by nature, I'm, you know, I feel where a lot of us are meaning seeking organisms and we're looking for. uh, meaning in what we're doing, you know, people, makes no sense where people defy their own basic human need and survival instinct to go and do something for somebody else. If there wasn't meaning in doing that, you know, if it was purely just a case of a zero sum game, you know, that then it wouldn't make sense. And I agree with you. My life would certainly be a lot more disappointing and sad if I had that view that there is nothing other than something else, you know? And so. I don't, I like, I've declared that before I, I've moved away from denominational, um, spirituality and I was on a recording podcast with someone a little while ago and we kind of went down this path as well too. said, I'm a spiritual being. I believe in a whole lot of spirituality. Um, I'm not denominational, meaning that a doctor or a book of rules within one area is the definitive pathway. I'm open to a whole lot of, uh, avenues and that allows me to be open enough to take learnings from my blind spots and go, Hey, I didn't realize that I never thought about that. And so I can be fascinated by different cultures and, and, uh, doctrines and, path. And that helps me make sense of life specifically. That's how I go about it.

So because we're humans, I was just on the flip side of that, like as humans, we tend to create meanings, right? Out of things. And because all these circumstances do happen, right? Do you find that over in history that maybe that's the other, the downside of that is that we just almost force a meaning if even though there was no meaning, you know what I mean?

Yeah, look, that's a good point. That's a good point because you know, you look at like the, the ancients, they used to look at that and go, it's the will of the gods. It's like, and so effectively what, what that does sometimes the predeterminism, the only part, and I sit in the camp that you do as well too, where I feel there's a level of order, divine order. I believe that. Um, but I also think that we have some kind of input into that as well, because otherwise you just then going, okay, well, I don't have to do everything. It's going to happen. It's not going to happen.

Yes.

If I sit on my couch, I don't sit on my couch, same outcome to me. That just doesn't make sense to me where, and so I have to believe that I have some say in it, you know, and there may be elements of things that I don't know how they're to play out. And, but it helps me to understand that there's a, there's a kind of an order. Yeah. There's a, the order in a, a, in an unordered imperfect world that somehow kind of links up and makes sense. It's kind like a tapestry that, that has individual parts that come together that individually. look imperfect, but at the end you go, okay, I can see the magic of that. That to me is what life looks like.

Yeah, it's interesting for me, I grew up Catholic, uh you know, for most of my life. And, you know, I haven't really been to church or mass for a very, very long time and probably over, you know, 25, 30 years. But it's been interesting, like being in Europe and every time you go to a city, there's always like, you know, a church that, you know, walks by and you walk by and you just going to go, oh, like that's a beautiful church. And, but it's only been this past year for some reason I've been more drawn. to actually walk into a church and not just look at the beauty of the church itself, but just um really just sit down, actually. I've sat down in the pews and just do a prayer. It's been such a long time, which my kids have never seen that before, because obviously we haven't been in churches and never been religious, but I've been more drawn to it this year than any time. I'm not sure what I don't have any meaning for. I'm just sharing a comment that I've been having.

Hmm? Hmm. Yep. Hmm. It's... It's... Yeah.

that it's been kind of drawing me to it, not necessarily going back to Catholicism or just more just being in this place. And I'm not sure if it's because maybe it's because I turned 50, maybe it's the age or maybe it's sort of that thinking of those types of things, but there's definitely been more of a pull there.

I, um, just on an interesting, different stat too. Um, uh, I have read that the number of young men, particularly in the U S that have moved, have been drawn to religion have spiked up significantly in the last six months. So that is, I definitely call you young. Yeah. Um, but no, but, like, so that it doesn't surprise me.

Hmm, you're calling me young. That's great, thank you.

In that, and that perspective, but I know that I went to, when I went to Sagrada Familia and I sat in there and I felt the essence of it. went, there's something here. You can, you can, you can feel that. So, uh, I love that. I love that that you are looking at this and going, okay, some things it's kind of like this emergent feeling or thought or, or awareness in you that you're exploring. I love that. I love the fact that you go, okay, well, what's this about? And I feel like I'm called to it. I'm not doing it because I have to. That was the hardest thing about for me. In my, in my religion, in Greek Orthodox religion, it's an ancient religion. The hardest part uh for me growing up was I couldn't relate to it because it's in, it's in ancient Greek. Now I'm fluent in Greek, but I couldn't understand the cues. couldn't understand the sermons. I couldn't understand any of those. And all I did, I took my cues. Oh, this is where the old people stand up and sit down. But if you go into a Greek Orthodox church, particularly in Australia, where I was from, it was people that were predominantly 75 and up.

Hmm, right.

So to me that says, well, this isn't moving in the, know, where's the, where's the succession? Yet I went up to some, some friends' some friends uh church who had a different religion. was a contemporary religion. They had young people in there and, and it was a, it was an inclusive really. And I went, I can see why that resonates with you. That makes sense. That gives you purpose and meaning and why you feel connected to it and your community. So I totally get that.

Hmm. Hmm. So yeah, there's just definitely a power in a church, right? There was just like, always every time I look into these old churches in here in Europe, you just go, man, I can't believe. Yeah, it's like, remember, this is the time when they didn't have cranes and, and stuff. These are all built by humans. You know, back in like the early what 1400s or you know, 1200s, sometimes you just like, how is this? How is this even possible? You know, like, it's just absolutely amazing. And I always try to imagine like, the people back then, you know,

It's stunning. It's stunning.

coming to a place like this and seeing this marvel and I can see the awe. I mean, I'm all and this is like a 2025. I can only imagine what it would have like, know, 100 years, sorry, know, a thousand years ago and them feeling that the way they do seeing these amazing structures. So let's kind of answer some of these questions. Like, what do you think the meanings of life is? Or do you think there is a meaning, you know, if it is, if there is one, what do you think it is? Or how do you find it? How do you search? How do you think about this topic?

Hmm. Hmm. Uh, look, I think that's a great question. And it's, and it's great that you ask me now as opposed to 10 years ago, as opposed to, uh, yeah, because it varies as your age, you know, and, your, your life view and purpose change, you know, like I think. For me, um, it's about understanding the purpose for me was about trying to understand myself. Uh, to me, I I've come to understand that there's certain.

Yes. eh

experiences that led me to have a life lesson. And I've put it through a spiritual lens to say, my whole purpose here is to understand the lessons that I need to learn so that I can evolve as a spiritual being. That's that to me is the part of that. Now, what do I achieve? the human form of me wants to see family and all those kinds of things. But that to me has filtered over time to get to the point where I say there are tests, there are lessons that I need to learn in order to elevate my level of spiritual awareness. And the moment that I can do that, I can actually elevate uh into a different platform and form. So that's how I see that. And, know, I'm having, I'm a human having a spiritual experience. a spiritual being having, sorry, having a human experience and in the human, the mortal human in me is tested that I need to keep learning and to keep to expanding in order to evolve as a spiritual being. That's, that's how I see it.

You know, it's funny, like, you know, obviously we know, you know, the stats and also the, the, the, the comment commonality at the end of life is usually about not know how much money you made is never about, know, it's about who you, who you, who you've become or the regress you have, uh, also the, the, people you've touched, right? We all kind of know that that's sort of the common theme at the end, but yet like, yet there's during the pursuit of that life usually is never about that.

Mm-hmm.

It's usually about pursuit of success and money and prestige and everything else. It's not until the end of life we start to realize all the things that you regret. And all the things that do regret is usually about the time you could have spent with loved ones. And so it's like, I find that spirituality and questions like this, it's a reflective one. It's reflect to kind of remind ourselves to go, like there's a deeper meaning here and let's not lose sight of that because I feel like we're always on this train to kind of pursuit and we're always in this train so fast.

Hmm. Hmm.

that unless we pause and we meditate or reflect or journal or something like that, that doesn't allow us the time to really kind of. kind of put a pause on going like, are we going in the right train? Are we going in the right direction? And is this matter? And the second thing I kind of come across is that, you know, the life experience that we actually have needs can't be perfect. Like it has to have these elements of imperfection. It has to have these elements of where there've been trials and tribulations because without that, it's a boring life, right? Without that, it's almost a life that it's just too good to be true. It's almost like there's no, not meaning, but there's just no experience in that when everything's going your way. It's almost, if your team always wins and you never lose, it gets kind of boring, right? Sports becomes very boring if there's no winners or losers. ah There's nothing at stake. A book or a movie, a story has no um thrill in it if

Hmm. Hmm.

if the hero is always winning and they never actually have any loss. And I feel like that's of similar to life. It's like we avoid lessons, we avoid hardship, but in reality is that in order for us to kind of get to somewhere that's worth living for, we need to have that hardship. And exercise is one of those perfect examples. Like in order for us to really be fit and strong and feel proud,

Hmm. Hmm.

you actually have to go through the pain and without the pain, you wouldn't appreciate the health that you have, AKA when we're 20 years old and we can be fully jacked and had never really have to work for it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that would be amazing. But it's, but it's interesting that you could look at that perspective, reflective from, from an older age, because you know, I am, I'm getting to a stage where I do, you know, I had a birthday we talked about most recently, and I don't know whether every year I look at things and go, does it really matter? You know, not, not so much. Does it really matter in terms of what I was getting rolled up about? I still want to pursue it. want to still do good quality work. want to contribute. Those things are important to me, but some things that I probably thought were important over time, I've been able to let go and that's been quite liberating. So I think I've become more of a minimalist as time's gone on, except my books. But I can see a time where if I choose to move, I'm going, right, I'm just basically, I'm not doing that again. But, but I think that gives me a bit more freedom and peace. But I love, I love watching in conversations with their kids because our oldest son's nearly 30, 30 next year. And to see him evolve and get a level of maturity has blown me away the last five years. So him moving away from home, um, moving to the other side of the world, going to two different countries himself and what he had to test himself with and who he's become as a result is fascinating to watch where you can see. their own evolution and then go, and then you say, well, what was my part in that? My part was just sometimes just sitting back, not jumping in and bailing you out, but you know, just outside of it. didn't never wanted to coddle them. We always wanted to them to learn that process. They had to go through this, um, this rite of passage, so to speak, to learn the lessons so that when we're not here, they go, right. They're good. They're okay. And so that's.

Yeah.

That's another dimension that I've been sitting in as well too, is like, here's my immediate impact and effect on the kids. uh But how do I allow them to find their own path, their own learning through the struggle and the learning itself so that they invariably have the capacity to navigate life on their own terms when we're not here.

Yeah. And that's the children is one of those things that you can really do see the impact, right? And that's sort of where we often, if I, if I ever looked at, know, if, I accomplished anything in my life, you know, I definitely look at my kids and go, okay, you know, at least I hope I did this right. You know what mean? Cause that's the, that's the main thing. And that's the really, the most important people that you kind of hope that you've made an impact on life, no matter how many people we have touched and helped, but it's a, you do just hope that you did your family well, your kids well.

Yeah.

and they grew up to be great human beings and hope they can continue and pass it on to someone else too as well, which is always challenging because you can't control that. You have to let them kind of fly and you gotta have to let them do their own thing.

Hmm. And, and there's things that I'm, I think that for me, the, the evolution is, is the values of learning freedom and experiences and growth are becoming more and more, even more important than they did before. You know, like, um, we had, we had a Christmas party on the weekend, caught up with some friends. Uh, it was wonderful. You'd be happy with me. Lawrence, we went to a wonderful restaurant here in, um,

I saw.

In Edinburgh, in Edinburgh. Yeah. So Bettina, uh she said to me, make sure you tell Lawrence this. I went, what's that? She goes, it was a fine dining, um, restaurant. She thinks it might've been a Michelin star chef. We just have to check. Um, but she goes, it's not your usual blunt instrument, um, food that you're interested in. went, huh, I like that term. That's really, but, but I, start blood. I'm a blood instrument eater. She said, you know, um, as opposed to a refiner, I went, okay, I'll take that. Uh, but I'll make sure I'd let Lawrence know, but.

one instrument.

But I think those kinds of things, can, know, where that previously wasn't as important to me, I can go, I can now see the importance of that. If, if I look at that and I go, well, there's X amount of dinners I will have in the rest of my life. Um, how do I want to enjoy those? You know, who do I want to be with? Um, what do I want to appreciate in life and beauty, all those kinds of things. So that's a filter where previously I may not have given it the, the reverence or the importance.

Hmm.

At that time for me, I'm suddenly going, okay, that actually is more important than I thought it was. So it's just, I don't know whether it's just a shift. don't know. I'll become a, a foodie, but I think I've leveled up a little

Yeah, no, think it, well, exactly. I think all of us have different values and we all have different interests and what, what meaningful to us. And it's not about trying to like be everybody else. It's not like trying to be, you know, enjoying what everybody else tastes is, but you, but it is leaning towards what you enjoy the most. And I remember, for example, um, I hear what you're saying at all. Cause it, cause remember there was a, there was moments where I was used to be guilty for like watching my 49ers play, you know, whatever time it was. And then after a while I'm like, you know, my kids or my wife used to make fun of me and like, know, why are you dressed up? You know, you know, they don't want to see you or why you getting up early in the morning to watch this? And there's no right answer. There's no good answer to it. It's like, it's just, there's no answer. No one's going to be able to know. I'm not like broke social media broadcasting it or anything. there's no, so it's not even like any cloud or anything. It's just more like, because I actually enjoy it. And it was just like, there was a little shift and years ago I was just like, I'm going or I'm doing this because I actually enjoy it. Like there's no, I don't need to explain it to anybody else other than this is purely out of my own enjoyment and my purely to my own ah scratching my own itch and just check. And that was like, for me, that was really pivotal because it was instrumental. like, I didn't need the approval of even my wife or my kids to go enjoy this, right? In this game or whatever it is. I just purely enjoyed it because I enjoyed it.

Hmm.

No one else, I just enjoy this. And it was just like that moment of just recognizing it's okay. Like I'm okay with this. So therefore it is okay. And I think that's, for, for, you know, as we talking about meaning of life is that it is finding those moments, right? It's like finding the moments that what makes you tick, what makes you happy, what makes you create, have the joy that you have. It doesn't have to be someone else's. Someone it is maybe buying a Louis Vuitton bag, right? But for someone else could just be like being in the woods um in the middle of Scotland and just. you'd be able to walk in peace for three hours in the silence and just to the Beatles and humming, like whatever it is, it's just like, that's the path. There's no right or wrong way. But I think that we've been, ever since I was young, I was been chasing what other people says should be right. And I think as we age, we get to this point where we just realize, I'm like, oh, I don't need to chase. Like, I just need to figure out like, what do I enjoy? And that's not an easy answer.

Yep. Yep. Hmm. Hmm

Right? If you think about this, like the question I'll propose for all of us to kind of think about and we'll maybe try to tackle this uh as we finish this up, which is, you know, do you have clarity of what your life, what a perfect life would look like or what a great life, I forget perfect, what does a great life look like for you? And I would venture to say, I think it's very, none of us have really sat down and actually mapped that out or thought about it in massive detail. I know I haven't, you know, there's bits of pieces, but I never actually. sat down and wrote like, this is the life that I would love to have. And I think without that clarity, it's gonna be difficult to actually maybe make it happen.

Hmm. You know, I talked about the spiritual journey, but what you did really well there, I was, was captivated in that process was you were talking about the, the human or the mortal journey as well, which is to get to appreciation of self, you know, and doing things and inspired by our own enjoyment and fulfillment. And that being the metric and the compass of what we do, you know, I, I so often would say, you know, obviously we've had a history of In chiropractic, when we were young, you know, I'd go and meet the old timers and they're just going, Hey man, just do your thing. I'm just happy to see my people who I see. see. that's it. And I'm happy and I'm content. And I really get that now. I really get that now. And it's not, you sometimes you have to channel travel through it. It's sometimes it's hard to pass that onto someone and go, because you think, Oh, you need is this year. Yeah. But you're at a different stage that I am. And, and. And that to me is the pathway where you can, it's not to invalidate it because they're all necessary steps and processes of your own path and evolution. And whatever feeling comfortable for you is, it can be different to me or Lawrence or somebody else. That's your truth. It's about being comfortable in your own skin and being okay with that and getting dressed up in your 49ers gear and cheering them on. Even if they lose. That's the highs and lows of life. That's the imperfection, but that's what gives us joy as well too.

You know, it's funny you said it's hard to pass that on and I find it very difficult, right? It's not just about passing it on, but passing it on in a way that it could land some way or somehow maybe now into the future. Because, you know, raising kids is probably the perfect example, right? Or coaching for us, as we coach young chiropractors or young people, oftentimes it's so easy for them to dismiss anything that we say if we say, this is how you should do this, because they know that we're coming in from a

Hmm.

older, wiser, maybe 10 years, 20 years ahead. And I really try to restrain from doing any of that, right? Like I'd really try to restrain from doing that, especially with my kids, because I know that they're gonna relatively make mistakes. And I can't really just go, you should never do that, because I know what the outcome is. But the reality is I can warn you about the outcome, but I can't stop you from doing it, because I know when I was your age,

Yeah, same. Hmm. Yeah.

I would want to do that. Like I would want to go pursue it and you and you can only give them the guide rails of just like, okay, just do it in the confines of this. Like try to like, you know, not to like stop the pain or like but to minimize it. Right. And I remember one of my coaches talked about, you know, in your 30s, you're there to accumulate like your goal is to just accumulate as much as you can, the cars, the house, you know, whatever the blinks and everything else. And you get to a point where those things don't matter to you anymore.

Yeah.

you know, you'll get to the next decade in your 40s where you kind of organizing your 50s. You just they just shedding, which is what you're doing. You're minimalizing to the things that you just doesn't serve you anymore. But in your 30s, you don't hear that. Like you go, but I'm in the pursuit phase right now. Like, why do you so you can't really be a 50 year old telling a 30 year old not to accumulate because that's the phase that they have to go through. And I think this is where a lot of mentors or coaches go wrong as they try to impose their thoughts and viewpoints to the wrong era.

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

right, using their current rare to go through it. we got, you and I both recognize is that that's actually not healthy for them. you can guide them through this, but you also gotta appreciate where they're currently at and where they need to be so that they can actually learn through that because they have to go through that experience. It's like, for us, when I was a practitioner, you look at babies and stuff, it's so much easier to put them into like these.

Yeah, yeah.

you know, these swings and all these things so they don't have to go through the falling stages or the walking stages and you know, and, but if you don't allow them to learn to stand up and fall or you don't learn them to allow them to crawl or utilize their own weight, they don't develop certain reflexes and certain patterns. And if you don't let them do that, they actually will have problems not right now, but they actually have problems five years later or 10 years later where they actually didn't have those.

Hmm.

firing patterns, which they should have learned naturally, but we impose these outside in type of, you know, principles that force them to think about it or utilize their body in a different way. And that's the hindrance. And we don't see it until down the road. And so we try, I try to really not to do that as much as I can, but are so hard, so hard.

Yeah, it is when you can see it, you can say a solution, you can jump in, but that's sometimes you're going to go, who am I doing this for them or me? And, but, but also elderly too, you know, when I, should just probably clarify when I say about shedding, I'm talking sometimes about responsibilities or obligations or letting go of stuff that I don't want to do. don't want to do. So I, I've let go of things that I don't want to do. And that, that in itself is liberating. It's very helpful. Um, and when I say about. Um, minimalist, like, you know, if it comes down to, Hey, I've got a choice between a $50,000 couch or, um, visiting Europe for two months. I know what you want them to take instead, you know, because to me that's, that's, that's an experience that I'll never get back. I'll sit on the couch, a dog, get onto it at some stage. And that to me, it's just that I've changed the meaning of things and what it means and what I, what I believe is necessary for me to achieve that feeling that I was after. to me that, I guess maps my progress and, and, expansion and growth as well too, where you're right. You know, before for me, we said you're in a chasing phase and now for me, I'm looking at impact and, and, uh, effects. I'm still trying to expand and do great work in areas that I work on. I'm choosing that whichever way that goes on, but I'm open to the idea that what I did up until now may be totally different tomorrow. And that's okay. I'm not attached to the.

Yeah.

This is what I have to do. And I think because you and I have exited a career, I mean, you, I've still got one foot in the, the, in the camp where I'm still maintaining registration and I selectively just might go in once a year and just do something like, but we've, we've exited that. And so we've, we've been open to it, you, you a lot more so, and that allows you to re develop and, and, um, just grow and, and And as we've said earlier on that we don't know what we're doing in its current form will be around in X amount of time. That's okay. We'll adapt, we'll grow, we'll move forward and we'll, we'll find something else that gives us that meaning, whatever it is in a different form, whatever it is that it's doing.

Yeah, well, life is strange and life is uh different for everybody. And I think this is the whole conversation is about is recognizing their differences between you and I. And when anybody who's listening to us, our goal isn't to tell you what to think. Our goal is to kind of hopefully using our stories and how we think to maybe simulate your own thoughts around this and what your beliefs are, because it really comes down to it. No one's going to prove you right or wrong. The reality is like, how do you want to live your life and how do you want to, like, what do you want to believe? in order to kind of create the life that you want, right? So I started saying, but belief and how important that is, I think it does. It really just comes down to your beliefs and what you believe in and that's the life you're gonna create. if you wanna choose a certain life, you're gonna have to believe in certain things. And again, no one should make it right or wrong. It's just, there's just this way you are. So I hope we kind of came to that conclusion and there is no answer to the meaning of life. you came before this podcast to find out what the meaning of life is, you're not gonna get it from me. I doubt are you gonna get it from Jim, so.

Yeah. Cause we're, just, we're trying to work it out ourselves. But I'm honest. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the answer is 27. That's the answer. 42 actually was 42. It was 42.

All right. Yes, exactly. I'll tell you when I die. Isn't it 42? I think it was something about 42. Yeah, 42 from, what's that book called? Galaxy or whatever. It's a camera. His shirt his sugar's good. Yeah. Yeah, 42. haven't read that book I'm actually now thinking about maybe I should go read that book. I just knew the answer was 42 All right, guys I hope that was helpful for you and hope you thinking about what the meaning of your life is and I hope that more importantly is not just about thinking about it but actually action and taking action towards Achieving that and making it a reality into your life Until the next time until our next episode. We'll talk to you soon. Take care

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Yep.