Embracing the Imperfect Ties That Shape Us

Welcome to Wabi Sabi. This is the art of imperfection, the podcast where we talk about imperfections in life. And to be honest with you, we're gonna talk about something pretty important today, I'll start with a story and that will blend right into exact topic of what we're gonna discuss today. So I have never, we got an exclusive uh scoop. Yeah, it is an exclusive scoop. I haven't announced it to anybody. I haven't actually mentioned anything to the socials, but depending on when this podcast gets released, it may be known by now.

We've got a scoop, we've got a scoop today.

But I have, you know, the reason why, let me explain why I haven't said anything. The reason why I haven't said anything in public is because I really didn't know how to say it in a way that, I don't know, I just, didn't know how I felt about it actually, personally. So I think that's important to kind of set that up because I didn't know how I would feel about the whole situation. And it wasn't really until the day it happened that I could kind of like bring all of those emotions. into play and then maybe formulate a thought of how I thought about the thing. Okay, so now everybody's like, okay, what are we talking about here? So yeah, what's okay. So so here's the thing. It's so on my on near my birthday of a couple weeks before my birthday. ah I think I mentioned this in a previous podcast, my wife did a great thing. Jim was one of those and they my wife asked a whole bunch of friends and people that I knew.

Okay. Now I'm glad I knew what you were talking about because by now you would have like, what's going on Lawrence? Tell me, I wait.

to write something, a message for me for my 50th birthday. And so she collected that from a whole bunch of people and from around the world. And she writes an email to my dad and my dad writes an email back, but this time he writes an email to everyone in the family but me, okay? For whatever reason, obviously, because the message was for me.

Yeah. oh

so that she would write this for my 50th birthday. Like this was supposed to be my 50th birthday gift, just so you know. So the message was, and this came in an email, and my, we were all out for doing something, and then my daughter, Kaya, calls me and go, did you see the email from Ye Ye, you know, my father, her grandfather? And I'm like, what email? And so she tells me in the news and the news is this. was actually, before I tell you the news, she goes, oh wait, let me call you back. She hangs up on me. like, what is going on here? She calls ah my wife who is in the shop somewhere and then she calls me back. Don't worry about it. You're not supposed to know. Boom, hangs up, right? So the message, what I'm not supposed to know, which is I'm gonna review now is this, was that my dad, message to me was that he was engaged and getting married.

Hahaha

That was his message to me. And first of all, that's like sure, getting my dad getting married, that's amazing and that's big news. But the fact of that, the problem was, not the problem, but the fact was I didn't even know he was dating anyone. So that's the background that I think people need to know. And so it was a shock to me, shock to my family. And now when you go back to listen to what I just said earlier was that I didn't know how I felt. And not in a bad way, I just.

Mmm.

didn't know how I felt about the whole situation, but just because I had no context, I have no ramp up, know? Like most people kind of find out, you know, someone's dating for a while or been dating, okay, and then you have the expectation that there's a wedding coming up or whatever, right? So that's all part of it. This was like all hit in like one message, boom. Oh, by the way, I'm dating, I'm engaged, we're getting married, I have a new mom, blank, right? And plus I have a new family. So that was like the process that I was going through.

Camera left field. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

I didn't know how to process that, to be honest. That's the thing for me. And the background was, not a negative way. I didn't have negative energy about this. Probably some little bit of going like, oh, what does it mean? But it was really more like, what's the meaning behind this? How do I feel? And I don't know how I feel. I'm happy for my dad, of course. He's 82 years old. I'm happy for him. It's hard being lonely and for him to find someone. um And she's a lovely lady. She's amazing. She has... You know, she has kids on her own as well. And so this is, she's, I think is our third marriage. She has two daughters from the first marriage. Then she married um someone else who passed away at the same time my mom passed away. And so they've been widowed for three years together in a way. And um so that she's got two natural daughters and three step sons. So the wedding basically brings three plus two plus us to. now has like, you know, seven family members to get family seven families together in a way. And I never experienced like, you know, step sisters and step brothers. And so that like all of these kind of like thoughts were going through my head. Anyways, I'll let you kind of come into your play. But that's sort of the blend of the cultures clashing.

Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Lawrence. And you're right. We talked about this a couple of months ago, you know, when it first came out. And then and now, I can certainly see where you go. Look, I don't know how I feel about that because it brings up all these emotions, you know, all this... feelings, like I want my dad to be happy, but how does it relate to this? And what about my mom and how it's this dynamic change that shifting that is pretty much the art of imperfection brought to life in terms of a family model. And I don't want to share help. I want to acknowledge you for sharing that because you've, you've, you've shared something that is quite true for a lot of people. And that is Um, relationship and the dynamic nature of them and how they can change. And, and as much as we all want the, um, happy ever after or forever and ever things change and how do we adapt and things that started off looking one way evolve and change and adapt and pivot as time goes on. So. Yeah, I think this is a, this is a dimension we haven't ever covered, you know, in, terms of the imperfections of life, but also, you know, the, the, the cracks that brought together that show where, those cracks are that are really the essence of the juice of life. So, um, I think this is a really fascinating and interesting discussion and specifically a very transparent and uh, honest one for you to share with, with people. And particularly, I was having a scoop as well too. That's, that's even more so. So, cause it's top of mind. It just like, cause we were like, Hey man, how come stranger? How's it been? We've both been busy. We've been traveling and doing different things. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm really intrigued. I really want to find out more and have this unfold.

Well, it's, yeah, go ahead. Do you have a question or? Yeah. Yeah, so we flew to Toronto for the wedding just recently. This is why the topic's in front of mine at the moment. And I haven't actually shared any pictures because again, I didn't know how to kind of feel about this. And again, I'm not, the feelings were up and down because on both spectrum, like one is I'm truly happy for both of them and absolutely amazing. This is before the wedding, right? But again, you've got to remember for context, I've never met her, right? And the only time I'm going to meet, the only time, this is actual truth, the only time I... got to meet her was actually the day before the wedding because we flew in. Yeah, we flew in on a Thursday and oh no, sorry two days before the wedding, right? So I flew in on a Thursday and we saw her that first time. We had dinner together. It was the very first time I met her. Friday we had lunch together and then Saturday was the wedding. So, you know, this is a brand new person. My dad's gonna be with, you know, his new wife. And we just met. like, was all these feeling like, who is this person? What did what do they do? What's the background? I'm sure we got a little bit that from phone call and conversations, but I never actually met. Who's the family met the daughter. So this is the crazy part, right? So on Saturday happens. So they did it in this this cafe, instead of like a traditional wedding, you know, they probably like over it, they don't care. Right. It's like, and they just brought like 80 of their friends and, and, and family members. And it was, what was weird was that me and my brother were the best man.

Yeah.

And we were at the front, and who comes up is the two daughters who are bridesmaids. So the eldest daughter comes out and then uh the second daughter comes up and then she comes up looking beautiful. She's fantastic. My dad's super happy. And then they stand in the front. So me and my brother sit down. And I still remember this moment because across the aisle, which is, it was tight, there's a small little cafe, tight was the daughters. And I remember leaning over, right? And then Dovrin goes, it's nice to meet you. Literally, that was the first time we ever met. Like I still have it in my memory. I wish that was taken on camera. It's like, it's nice to meet you to both the sister. And it's crazy. It's crazy as it sounds. Now that I was still so thinking about myself and it's not until much later, I realized I'm like, oh, wait a second. They probably thinking the same thing. Who are these two guys? know, who are these, you know, who's this, you know, new...

Oh boy. Yeah. How'd they get the gig?

Yeah, like who are these two guys and what are they about? And you know, cause obviously I'm in Portugal, they never met me or anything. So it was, it was funny at the same time, but it's something we can all laugh about. But all of that just kind of came into play and, uh, and that's how you meet your new, you know, I stepsisters or, know, however you want to call it. And yeah, it was, was, it was profound moment. But what was really interesting for, for us was, you know, we had, I mean, the head table was my dad, um, his new wife. and the two sisters, not two sisters, the two daughters and then me and my brother. So we actually had a chance to over dinner over loud music, unfortunately, you know, have a conversation, actually get to know each other. And that was fun. That was fun. And really get to know like they were amazing, amazing people, you know, doing amazing things, which is fantastic, which is, know, so it's just like all the, all the doubts or thoughts that you had like preconceptions before. you it just all kind of went down and it actually swung to the positive side. And so it's great because you could easily go, it could have gone the other way, right? You meet them and going, oh, well, they're the horrible people or you just don't know. And as the thing is, you don't, you can't do anything about it. It's not like we can't because this is this part here is it happens. It's not something you actually have any control over. So that's why I didn't put any thought to it in a sense, but you just hope for the best and the best it happens, which is great.

Yeah, totally, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So look, I want to thank you for sharing that. Is it okay to just ask you some specific questions that will perhaps ponder and give people insight into some of the thoughts and emotions. So thanks for that. how, how do you think or, or, or not, not how do you think, what do you think made it difficult for your dad to tell you that he was dating someone, alone marrying someone?

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. think I did ask him that, you know, afterwards. I'm like, why didn't you tell me like, you know, like, why did you wait so long? Because I didn't know how to tell you didn't know how you were going to take it. And I'm in my brain. I was like, well, don't you think telling me that you're engaged makes it even worse? It's like it's like the long and this is a good lesson for everybody. The longer you wait to tell something that's uncomfortable, it actually is worse, right? Because it actually hits harder. Right. And so

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

because now the relationship between my dad and Irene was moving at such a pace, and because you never got a chance to say anything, it actually now gets to a point of no return, and now it's almost too late, and now it just gets more complicated. um I I actually found out before the daughters did. The daughters didn't find out until Mother's Day, and...

Yep.

And they didn't find out because they know that she just saw a ring on their finger, her finger and go, what is that during dinner? And then she had a hard time telling the step sons too as well. And that took a long time. think one of them found out like a month before the wedding. So it's like, it's just a delay delay. And, I think that makes it harder. And unfortunately, um, one of the sons, uh, wife and son couldn't come because they were in a different country and they just couldn't make the plans to make it.

Okay.

But so your question was, sorry, remind me of the question.

Yeah, it was like, made it hard for your dad? And obviously I ran to bring it up to their respective families, you know, is, would it have been difficulty, uncomfortableness of it? would be, was it the projection or the judgment of what they thought they're judging themselves about, you know, like, so there's so many, you know, there's so many questions that come to mind. like, you know, you're in your eighties, you're probably there going, I'm really happy, you know,

Oh my god, harder. Yeah, so I-I-It's fu- Yeah.

Is this right to do or do I deserve to be happy? Do I have to go through all? So I would imagine there's a whole lot of questions that they had to cycle through for themselves to even entertain that. But then, as you said, then the difficult part of how do I tell my own kids that there's a change in the dynamic? And I haven't been able to tell them for a while.

Yeah, I think it has probably a respect of my mom maybe like I would say, you know that he didn't, you know, didn't know how the dynamics and my love for my mom and how that would change and how I would have accepted and I think, you know, and I get that fear because I imagine that would be there. My dad actually a year about in the last November. He did when I spent some time with him in Bali, we spent about three, four days together and he did ask me, he did ask me, he said, Hey, you know, would it be okay if I start dating?

Yep. Yep.

And I said, Dad, you're 80 years old. Like you don't need my permission. But absolutely. And but I did ask him, I'm like, are you dating anyone? He goes, No, no, no. No, I'm not. um So, you know, he could have told me at that time, I guess. But he didn't. Yeah, he was he was probably testing. Yeah, he's definitely testing. So he he did brave that I'm not sure he told my brother. And and even the thing is, is he brought her to one of my

Yep. He was testing the waters, by the he was testing the waters, yeah.

my nephews or nieces soccer game or birthday party or something. But he never announced to everyone who she was, what the relationship was about. It was funny because the cousins like my daughter and my nephew or nieces or nieces and they were like, you know, Instagramming each other and goes, you know, I think she, know, they were just speculating, you know, I think, I think she's a girlfriend, da da da. And then we're just going back and forth. So I was getting information from like teenagers rather than, you know, the scoop from the teenagers rather than actually from my dad. So I think the challenge is probably the respect of what that meant. And it is interesting how human nature is that, you know, despite being 80 years old, you're still kind of looking for approval for from others at times. And I found that kind of a fascinating human psychology, not to say that's a good or bad thing. It's just I think that it's, think at some point, we all are not fearful, but we all are care about the judgment of others to impact our decision making. uh putting stuff out there.

Yeah, I think that I, that's the angle that I had was probably, um, respect was really that the uncomfortableness of it. And, know, how's this going to, um, how, how is, how is this going to be seen by my kids in terms of their, their mom and all those kinds of things. So I totally get that. And I think there's a part of us out of respect that seek a blessing from somebody as well. When we finally let them know, like I know when I asked, uh, Bettina's handy marriage. actually went to her dad. actually did it very traditionally. I got on a train and went and overnight train and went and spoke to him and I was petrified because I knew he had a lot of guns on the farm and it was either going to go really well or really badly. But he was awesome. He was great. But I did it traditionally. even when we, the opportunity came for us to move to Spain, we even did that with our kids. You know, we actually said, look,

Mm-hmm. Me too. hahahahah Hmm.

Yeah. Hey guys, here's this opportunity for us. This is where we're at. How do you feel about that? And there's something about getting someone's blessing that, just goes, Hey, I'm good. And, and, you're short. Yeah, I'm good. And it gives you reassurance that, uh, that what you've got doesn't change. It's just the dynamics and the form and it will just probably look in a different form, but yeah, that's how I interpret it from, from when you first.

Well, I think there's the I think it's critical to kind of make sure that we we kind of frame that frame it too as well, because you're absolutely right. Like I think you asking for your permission, not permission, sorry. Let's take that back. That's cross that word asking for blessing for, you know, or thought or opinion of your kids moving to Spain. Say, right. That was the thought process. And I think that's important. But I think where we need to kind of quote unquote, put it like a bracket on this is like from people that you actually care about or care about their opinions. Because I think there are people who might be listening to or watching this who might be, may seek approval or seek a blessing from people that they don't necessarily respect. And all of sudden now they may not do X because that person wouldn't approve. And so I think that's really important, right? Just putting that in the context.

Yeah. Good point. Good point.

Yeah, and I know that there's gonna be people out there where it's like, oh, I don't know, but then you ask and then they're like, oh, why would you do that? Like, this might be a, this could be a parent too, right? Could be a parent. If I ask, like, for example, I never asked my parents, actually, no, it was after mom, but I never asked my dad, I'm like, what do you think of me moving to Portugal? Right? Not that I don't respect his opinion, but I also had this thought process, go, well, his opinion doesn't matter on this.

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Right? You know, I definitely asked the kids, right? But for me, think my dad's opinion on moving to Portugal isn't going to be the beyond and at all, because now what if he says no, right? And even my mother-in-law who lived with us, right? And we made a conscious decision. Okay, this is a perfect example. My mother-in-law lived with us in Sydney. And when we made a decision that we're moving, it wasn't like a conversation that goes, what do you think?

Yeah. Yeah.

Now, right. was more like, okay, here's what we're doing as a family, like as in sense of me and Karen and, and, Kai and Christian, um, we'll love for you to join us. We'll make that happen. But at the same time, this is your decision. You can choose to stay in Sydney and we'll make that happen too. We'll, we'll find a way to make sure that you were looked after. Um, but we're, going now that might sound like harsh and cruel, but the end of the day is that.

Correct, yeah. That's...got it. Yeah.

What if she said no? I write and then now now I'm like, well, I'm stuck, right? Because now I'm to let someone who doesn't want to move who's, you know, 70 mid 70s ago, no, I don't want to do this. And now like, well, wait a second, this might I thought this is my family, my choice, right? So I know it seems kind of weird. And by the way, she said no, she's not coming. And I'm like, okay. But we're still going. We're still going.

Yep. Yeah. Yep, yep, yep.

and we'll make things happen. wasn't until like much later she decided she goes, no, I think I better come with you. Right? And I'm like, yeah, of course. And she has a great life here, right? She's got lot of friends and everything. But of course, like if I was 75 years old, I probably won't want to move either. Right? And so again, I'm not I don't blame her for that, that initial comments or situation I don't. And I don't want to put her in that position either. But I also can't put my family's decision on someone else's opinion. That's not my core family. And

Yep. Yep. Yeah.

let's face it, my reality and kids may listen to this in the future. like, we asked for your opinion, but I didn't ask for your like, blessing in a sense, like, you know, I mean, like, I didn't really ask for, you know, whether you said no, I think we were still would have considered it. But if the fact that we're moving, we're moving, we would have moved because I think at 13 and 10 at the time, it's like your decision kind of like, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's different. It's different. And, And, and, and, uh, I think the distinction I am here to, and I agree with you totally. Like there's a difference between at a courtesy to saying, listen, this is what we'd like to do. I'd love to see, um, I want to find out how you feel about that and whether you want to be a part of that. That that's, that's a different conversation to asking five different people. What do you think about this idea? And based on their ideas, you decide to proceed or not, because that's, that's the difference between permission.

Hmm.

seeking permission and do you think I should do this or can I do this as opposed to listen, this is what we're doing, but because I care about you, I just want to let you know that that's the angle that we use with our kids. And interestingly, you know, our eldest son, when we said, Hey, listen, this is what's going on. We just want to you know, this opportunity has come up. Uh, how do you feel about that? And they said, look, go for it. You've always said you've, you know, follow your visions and dreams. And we're really proud of you for even thinking about that. And we said, well, how's that going to affect you? the other son said, listen, I'm moving to New York. So I'm okay. And, Xavier youngest said, you know what? No, I'm good. I'm actually, think I'm staying here. And it was probably 12 months later when he just went, you know what? No, I'm going to do what every other 20 something does in my life in, uh, in my world. and go abroad and he moved to London for a while, but there was a difference between asking them for permission, but then also consulting them and say, Hey, you're an important person. How do you feel about that? So sometimes they'll give you a blind spot. Sometimes they'll, they'll like, you know, highlight some things that you may not have considered. And that to me is where, where, and why I do reach out when I'm sitting on something that's really important. I'll ask some people for insight that I might not have on mommy. might be blinded to saying, but that's

Yeah.

Yeah, if I'm already sharing it, I'm 70, 80%, 90 % of the way there anyway myself, if I'm honest. Yep.

Yeah, well, it's also that's the role of a coach and consultant, right? Like as a coach has a role for what we do is like, people ask for our opinions, but it doesn't always stipulate. It's like, okay, this is is my thoughts and my opinions based on what I know about you. But the reality is that I have no attachment that you have to follow what exactly to do what I tell you to do. Right? Because I'm not attached to this. Not my ego. The reality is like, this is just my opinion based on what I feel. But you have more insight, like, you know, the client or anybody, any of us have more insight to that decision, because there's a lot of factors that

Yeah. Yep.

I may not be a proofie to inside that brain of yours, right? And it's the same thing, you know, I remember telling my dad afterwards, was after, when he first came, actually, when he came to Portugal to visit and he spent a month here and I was talking to him and he goes, what did you really think when I told you we were moving? You know, did you think that we were crazy? And it's like, well, kind of. He goes, what did everybody else think, right? When he told, you know, all my aunts and uncles or whatever. And they go, yeah, why Portugal, right? Because, and that's the thing, because most people have this impression of Portugal and being like this third world country, you know, that, you know, no one goes to, they don't know the inside. No one does the research because you just have this like whatever worldview point of a particular area and not know anything about that. It's no different than, you know, when I meet people and they, I'll say, where you've been the last, you know, 10, 15 years, oh, we moved from Nenibia, you know? I'm like, I don't know anything about that, but it's like so, kind of a shocking thing to me at the beginning because it's like, oh, who comes from there or Nairobi, right? I met some, and they're like, okay, wow, like what brought you to Africa? You know, like, you know, and they're like white as anything, right? So it's just like, what, like, what, what, what have you been doing there for 15, 20 years? No different than probably where, you know, when I meet people and they said, you know, where are you from? And I'm like, well, Australia or Canada, but like, but I spent 20 years in Australia. They're like, wow, like where, how did you even end up there? And it's like, it's usually that,

Go. No. oh

because most people just don't have that conception. They see Australia as this faraway land that you holiday and maybe never get a chance to go to, right? But for Australians, they're like, no, that's our country. This is where we live. is what we, the faraway land is America, right? So it's just perception. And I think that that's why I feel like we need to put an asterisk on that. Getting people's opinions or permission has to be an asterisk of, it has to come from someone you respect.

Yeah.

Right. And again, you don't actually have to follow through with it. You just need to get their opinions to formulate your own opinion and decision-making based on all those opinions, because they're to come from their worldview versus yours.

Yeah. And I still get asked these questions. Lawrence says like, why, why did you move? Seriously? when, uh, particularly a little bit in, in, Barcelona, when people would say, we really aspire to move to a country like Australia, why would you live here? I'm like, well, you know, great lifestyle, all these kinds of factors, but Scotland more so like every second person is why dude, why, you know, we got the Hills and everything. That's great. But why? And you know, obviously there's a purpose and a reason, but that would be. That's the allure of Australia for lot of people, this amazing opportunity and adventure and all those things. And so people have to understand why we do what we do. And for initial, it's just not gonna make sense. It's just not within their sphere of cognition to even consider why you'd pack up and move to the outside of the world when you're not in your 20s.

Yeah, I remember like I still get that when I was in Australia and people find out from Canada and they're like, why like this Canada so amazing because their vision of Canada is Vancouver and Whistler, right? That's what they see because that's probably the only place they've been to in Canada, right? You know, they don't imagine anything else. No one's ever been to Toronto. you know, like it's a big city, but no one really kind of comes from Toronto. Um, and, and, you know, and the thing is, is that, you know, people think, oh, like, you know, I remember, uh,

Exactly. m Yeah.

I remember when I first moved to Australia, you know, my Canadian friends are like, Oh man, Australia must be amazing. Yeah, that's absolutely amazing. But we still work, you know, like it's not like just 24 seven on the beach every single day. We can because it's available. But it doesn't mean like we're on the beach, sun tanning, you know, Baywatch style all day every day, right? We can again, but that's

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what did you say? You did. And what did you say to me just before we started recording? Cause just on the weekend, I went to the Royal Edinburgh military tattoo and amazing event. I've always wanted to watch it. And yeah, and I was uh dressed in traditional Scottish attire as you go out in the evening in summer. And it was a jacket I was wearing. And what did you, what did you say?

Oh yeah. Yeah. I think I don't know what exactly, but I remember Facebook coming to us. Yeah. Oh yeah. So my daughter, which we'll get to in a second. I go, Kaya, this is Scotland. It is Edinburgh in August. Right. And the reason why is because I said that to Kai is because she, one of her top schools that she wants to consider is in St. It's at St. Andrews, which is just an hour outside of Edinburgh. Old one of the.

What's with the car? You said your car. You were showing your car. You were showing...

It's actually the oldest university, think, in the UK. It's from 1400s. It's crazy. Anyways, um and going back to Kaya for a second, you know, she has a couple of choices. And one of the choices is Madrid. And when we're away for in the Canada, you know, we've been talking about different schools and she goes, I don't want to go to Madrid. And I go, well, how come? He goes, it's the same same. Like same same. What are you talking about? She goes, it's the same as Portugal. It's like sunny. you know, it's nice weather. And I'm like, oh my God. I was like, okay. So he goes, Port St. Andrews, like, you know, it's different, you know, different culture. It's, it's cold and I can remember, you know, she's Australian, like she's born raised in Australia, right? Born in the sun, in the beaches. And we come to Portugal, sunny, you know, weather, Madrid's very similar, no beaches, but it's sunny. She goes, she wants to change. She wants to have that contract, which the cold.

Yeah. Yeah.

know, the winter clothes and, and she just wants that she wants that cultural change. And I admire that I know, like, at first, I'm like, I don't understand it, because I come from the cold, remember, so like, the contrast of worldview I have is like, why on earth would you ever want to go there if you had to choose? And, but I can understand, you know, being, you know, you know, teenager, but or like, heading into her 20s, like, yeah, you probably want to experience that. And then you might

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yep.

to make a decision you either love it or you most likely scenario is like you absolutely hate it, but there's at least it was only a few years, right? And so I think it's funny how all of us are, we are seeking the side that we don't know, right? And that could be in business or life. It's like we're seeking the other, yeah, the grass. Yeah. And the difference is that you're, it's the people who are actually making the change and to test it at least to see if that's something I actually want, or you're just sitting there thinking about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, the grass is always greener on the other side.

but never actually executing. And I rather test it and recognize I'm like, oh, I made a mistake or I didn't like it and then go back rather than just going, I've always wondered what the grass feels like on the other side.

You know what? Yeah. That is so spot on, know, like the conversation that Bettina and I had, like, yeah, it brought back to this conversation we had on that night. So the Royal military tattoo, remember watching it as a kid on TV and Bettina's mom did as well. And they did too, when we were back in, and she always said, I'd love to go see that. I'd love to go see it. I'd love to go see it. What's really interesting is Bettina's mom and dad worked so hard and put everything on hold that they didn't get to experience a lot of the things that they've wanted. And there's this irony at the moment that all the things that, um, but 10 is mom one day said, I'd love to do that one. We're actually doing it. And there's this, there's this part of life where you go and pretend I consciously went, how good is this? How good is just. having this experience and opportunity. And I think there, and then we made the commitment that we're not going to opt out of life because it's difficult. We're going to keep trying things. And we had this, why that conversation started was there, we're in line and we're waiting to get into the castle. It's like a 40 minute wait, know, you just, everybody's lining up and I'm wearing my Canadian jacket, right? Got to give it to the Canadians and I had to put a jacket together, keep you nice and warm, particularly in the Scottish summer. uh

Yeah.

But as I'm in line, this lady just taps me on my shoulder and taps the Canadian. Um, like it's not a Canadian goose. It's another, uh, cause I've got one of them. They're brilliant too. And I go, and she goes, Oh, are you from Canada? I said, no, actually I'm Australian. And I go, you Canadian? She goes, no, I'm from Boston. And I'm like, and she'll be like in her eighties. And we've had this conversation where it's like, Oh, so Boston, I've been to Boston. Yeah. So did you come from Australia? No, I've been part of like this whole conversation. oh And what I really admired about them is that that was Bettina and I in about 30 years. You're right. So these guys are in their eight seventies and eighties and whatever it could be. Can't remember exactly, but they're still adventurous. They're spirit. They've kind of like, yeah, we've done this. We've done that. We've lived here. We've done that. And I walked away with Bettina and I went, you know what?

Yeah. Yep.

It just reaffirms the richness in life. know, like you can stay home and yeah, you'd be aspirational, but hoard everything and never have experiences. And there'll be a time in our lives when we can't do that anymore. Right? We can't do, we can't get out there and have that. But no one provided that we keep our cognitive faculties there can take those experiences away. And to me, that is the richness of trying new things all the time.

Yeah. Well, that's Well, that's the essence of the book, Die with Zero, right? And so if you have never read that book, I highly encourage everyone read that book because it's one of the most phenomenal books that talks a lot about this. you know, going back to the 80 or like my dad and Irene, like they, you know, they came to realization, you know, this is something before the wedding. You know, I mentioned to my dad, I've been trying to get my dad to do this, which is like, let's liquidate your assets. Like you do not need to hold on to these real estate properties. um

Yeah.

For what? you know, like you're going to like my dad has assets in Canada, Hong Kong, Australia. And, know, there's no offense to him. It was like, but at some point I'm going to have to deal with this. Right. I'm trying to minimize my work. Like, could you just sell some those assets? Could like, can consolidate to like, least simplify this so that we can just deal with one bank versus like multiple banks. And since my mom passed away, he's been dealing with a bank in Hong Kong, like for three years.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, simplify it. Let's simplify life.

trying to get hold of that asset. And it's like, probably costing him more. Yeah, it's crazy, right? And I'm like, dad, what are you holding onto? A real estate in Australia? You haven't lived there in like seven, eight years. You know, like, why are you still holding on? I don't even live there anymore. I can't even help you. It was in like Western Australia. Finally, he sold that property. And you know, he has our family home since I was, you know, 12 or 13, as he still holds it. And I'm like, dad, you're moving in with Irene. Like, what are you holding onto this asset for?

Yep. Because when you go through probate and all these stuff, it's just a joke. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

learned to sell it and it took a while, but he recognized, actually both him and Irene, like Irene has a massive real estate portfolio as well and they're both starting to realize, I'm like, you know what, we're married, we're gonna sell off our assets. ah But anybody cares, I the first questions that people get like, did they get a prenup? Yes, they did, so like that was done. So I just wanna put that in there, because I know that's the first question people ask. But anyways, so, but they're gonna sell off their assets, think at least the intention is they're gonna sell off their assets and they're gonna enjoy life together, right?

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Because they got to read, I mean, how amazing is that, right? At 82 years old, um they are starting fresh again and they get to experience life. And they're actually coming here to Portugal. They're doing a two to three week trip to England, to Spain, to Portugal uh and doing a massive trip. know, at 80 someone just, that's awesome. I think I get to see them for like, maybe for dinner, I think, because they're doing this tour that's quite expensive and quite rich. So the key element is like, you're right, is.

Yep. Oh cool. Yep.

The one thing about Dive with Zero that says like, you might have this vision that, oh, when I retire, I'll do X. But the problem is that we don't know, the assumption is, right, the main thing, the reason why people put it off is because we'll have the money at that time, right? And the time, those are the two things. But the assumption you're making is that we have the mental and physical faculty and desire that you had when you were, you know, in your 30s or 40s. And I'm starting to realize that. like, there's certain things like,

Yeah. uh Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I went to a theme park with my kids and my brother's kids. went through a theme park and you know, Karen just absolutely now she used to love roller coasters and she hates them now. I went on it just because my daughter loves it. So I'm going on with her, but like, it's not like a let's go do that. I'm not going out of my way to go, let's go have fun on the roller coaster. You know, so that's what I mean. Like, you know, five years from now, like I'm getting, as I get older, I'm getting more scared or not.

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Desiring to want to do that after about seven rides. I come like I tapped out I'm like, okay, I'm done because like my vestibular system was like mmm. Yeah, it's been a mush right? It's like a little bit too much now um And exactly so like that's what I mean by putting things off You know what you said is that you know We are living life and getting to do the things that we want to do now the only challenge with that is we run out of things and then so we have to create all the like, know harder things to do but new things exactly, so it's

Yeah. Yeah. It throws you off. Yeah. New, new, new things, new things. But, but, but, but I think, I think that the concept of plan for tomorrow and live for today is really important because that was the, that was the thing that I really got and had to get to was for me, I was probably guilty of the first part, probably a product of the conditioning and I had where it was just all delayed gratification to, to almost a ridiculous level to then be able to Um, because I, I, I remember deferring enjoyment for a lot of things. And when we did sell a property, there was, there was a whole lot of money that was available and there was, there was a, not a guilt, but it was like, Oh, do I want to use that on experiences? And so to me, it was, I had to, I had to rewire that part of my brain. I had to give myself permission, so to speak. to actually allow myself to enjoy that, realizing that I'm not stealing it from the kids inheritance. know, like I'm actually, uh I'm having an opportunity to enjoy some experiences that I want to get to. if it, and if it means that I'm happily achieving, I think that's the, that's the big distinction I've made the whole achieve to be happy as opposed to happily achieving. That's been a really big rewire that I made, you know, the last 10 years, particularly.

Hmm. Okay, so let's put an asterisk on this this comp this topic around this of like living life because I think I think no No, I think it need we need to kind of asterisk is like we did last time So here's here's my thought as you were talking. I think it really depends on who's who's listening to this right now Okay, so here let me let's go through this. I think if you're in your 20s your advice about um Like delay gratification is actually important

Yeah, you want to come back to it. Alright.

All right, here, me explain that in a second. But if you're in your mid-30s to like an above, I think what we initially started saying about like you gotta live for experiences, there's like a balance. think maybe like, I'm gonna make these numbers up. So say like mid-30s to like mid-40s, it's about balancing experiences with, you know, and also being concerned, responsibilities, right? But I think beyond like mid-40s onwards, I say,

Responsibilities? Yep, yep.

you know, let's just be smarter. Like, let's pull more towards experiences and less about, you know, the delayed gratification. So that's the range, right? And the reason why I'm saying that to go back to this, and I'd love for you to comment on this, the 20s is like, I think we're living in this world, and this is the context I'm wrapping this around. It's not that I think that 20 years should not live for experiences, but I think we live in a world right now in society in 2025, that the society is pushing the narrative of like, live now versus later.

Yeah. Yeah.

Don't worry about retirement. And it's been a narrative from, guess, when we were younger, but it's gone obviously mainstream. We're seeing a whole bunch of influencers like living large, buying Lamborghinis, Ferraris, traveling in the world, influencers. You now have a comparable world that that's what you're supposed to do in your 20s. And what has shifted the narrative in 20 years mind that if I haven't made a million bucks by the time I'm like 25, I'm a loser.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's the wrong story to have ingrained in their mind. And I feel like what needs to be flipped at least counter counterweight that again, I'm not saying you shouldn't go and live life and experiences, but I think you need to actually put a little bit more weight because society norms is pushing this way that you're going to have to put a bit more weight on delayed gratification and actually putting in the work to develop your skills and and really working and developing the skills within your 20s. That's my asterisk on that.

Yeah. Yeah, good, actually a really good point and really good decision. saw, I watched a video with Gary Vaynerchuk, uh, along the same thing. And he said, when, when of our vintage, if we wanted to tour Europe for us, was like backpacking it. That was really the option, right? There wasn't the, you weren't thinking five-star, you were just like, want to, and that was, we were comfortable in working within a particular budget, so to speak. Whereas you're right. There is, there's a lot of pressure on, on people that if you haven't, uh, if you're not a crypto billionaire by 25, you've, you've somehow not done some things, things right. And it has to be different. that puts pressure on people. And I remember Gary V saying along the lines of, um, you know, this is what we did. And if, know, if you want to go out there, experience is good, but don't complain that you don't have these, um this stability later on. So for me, I can definitely see the wisdom of that insight that you've had because there is a period of time that that creates the opportunities to have choices. And I get it. So I was talking from the perspective of a 50 something year old guy who did that in his twenties that now has the opportunities to do and have experiences that I wouldn't have had in my twenties. um

Yeah.

that I didn't have in my twenties, but now I wouldn't be able to do them in the way that I do. I wouldn't have the level of freedom and choice that I have. And I'm very, very grateful for that. But now what that for me is about, how do I maintain my health to keep enjoying these experiences to, and not with the view that I have to keep withholding and depriving of experiences. Cause to now, like I've gone, wouldn't say I'm now I'm a minimalist, but the The getting something has less interest now to me than it, than it ever did. Right. So have something I haven't, I'm not worried about it, but it's the experiences that are, that are really important to me. So, um, that's how my brain has, has, has sort of changed over time, but I, I, yeah, definitely. I definitely like your insight about what you said before.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that the advice is sound across the board. It's just that that's why I wanted to preface it was because we didn't actually state, you know, like the range and I think that having the range because then now the listeners go, okay, I fit into this range. Again, this is just our opinion, of course, like who are we two guys sharing opinions, but it's like, you know, if you want to listen to it, that's my thinking about it. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I, I feel like when you're young, like, I don't think people are working hard enough, hard enough and long enough to

Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

to see the rewards and they're giving up faster and sooner and moving on to the next thing. And that's, I think that could be a detriment long-term, um whereas people who actually spend the time to develop that skillset and, you know, it's no different than, you know, people expecting like a six figure income first day out. ah It's like that high expectations, like, where did you come up with that? You know, like. And I think that that's a wrong expectation to set. And I tried to do my best, but I mean, all my kids, unfortunately, and I'm sure the same like my kids, you know, they're uh used to a certain lifestyle, right? And they used to a certain type of, you know, quality of hotels. And again, I'm not, we don't like stay in five star, but it doesn't really matter because there's always a particular level, right? And so therefore here's the minimum. then therefore, you know, they're going to get a rude awakening when they're going to have to do their own travel of what you said about Europe. If they're going to travel,

Yep. Yep. Yep.

to Europe, it's not going to be at a four five star hotel. And you're not eating at a nice restaurant, in a nice steak house, or a nice sushi place. Yeah, you might do that once in a while, but you're going to be looking for the street food, which has a different experience on its own. And there's nothing wrong with it. It's just that it's a different way of traveling. And I think we all have to experience that. I told the kids over there, when we went to Bali, for example, it's like we went to X-rated hotels.

Yeah. Yeah.

you know, we aspired to go to those five star luxury hotels and we actually went, I actually, you know, rode a bike there and asked for it to see a room, right? Just so I know what I was aspiring to and do I want this? And I think those are, you know, testing and it's the same thing with the cars, go test drive a car, maybe go to a dealership and just like sitting and just to see like, you know, if that's something you really desire, go for it. And then at least you can visualize it because now you have kinesthetic. you feel like what you know, a car feels like this is the car actually want it might take you a couple years to do it, but at least you got the feeling um or you know, rent rent it for a day or whatever. Like I think sometimes that that's enough for someone they don't actually have to own it.

Yep. So it's just a question that came to my mind and circling back a little bit combination of what we just talked about now, but then also your dad. Was your dad a person who liked adventure along the way? And did you model that from? him or your mom, because I think you've mentioned in the past that your brother hasn't done as much traveling as you have. So what what's influenced your worldview? Was it through parents or was it through not having experiences that inspired you to to create your own?

That is such a great question. I reflected upon this a lot uh when I was, every time I go back to Canada. I've been back only a couple of times in the last couple years and my brother and I are similar in mannerisms but contrasting very different worldviews. And I don't know the answer to that. I'm still kind of dumbfounded about like how I became who I am and how he became who he is. uh The answer is, for me at least was that my dad traveled a lot for work and he used to fly, but not like worldwide. He used to travel a lot to mostly the States. And I don't know, I saw it as like, that is so awesome. You know, I actually said this in one of the weddings, one of my, during my wedding speech, had to do a wedding speech for my dad. And one of the things I remember was that my dad asked me when I was probably like 16, 17, he goes, do you want to come to LA with me? I'm like, sure, right? So he flew me out on a work trip to LA.

Hmm.

And when we landed and he's like, okay, well, what do want to do? I go, I don't know, what do you want to do? He goes, well, we got a day. Let's go drive to Vegas. I'm like, how far is Vegas? It's like a five hour drive. I'm like, okay. So we drove to Vegas, spent like the entire day in Vegas. And then we drove back. Like in one day we didn't stay in Vegas. I was like, that was awesome. And that was one thing I remembered about like my experience with my dad at some point.

you

And that's my backbone of my speech was like, you know, he was such an adventurous person, you know, and to go travel and creating experiences and he's doing it again, you know, at 80 years old creating new experiences.

Yeah, that's, that was my whole point. That was my whole point was what kind of person have you been to then be an 80 to travel to the other side of the world as they're to come and visit you, but also be able to go, you know what? I, I deserve to be happy in the, in the golden years of my life. And I'm, I'm prepared to marry, get married again. So that's the, that was the nature versus nurture was it circumstances that he had. So that was where my mind was going.

And so I just saw this video and I thought it was brilliant. It was a guy who was talking about parenting and basically he talked about his blank canvas. He's like, if you think that you as a parent has any determination, deterministic ability to be able to determine the trajectory of your kid's life on how they're gonna end up, you're mistakenly wrong. He said, yeah, are a combination. Your kids are a combination of generations of DNA between you.

and the cushion. Yeah.

you and your husband or wife or whatever, um combination of that. However, they are a blank canvas. Now, does it mean that you have no influence? He goes, absolutely you have influence, but you cannot determine that they're gonna be X or Y or do whatever. Like they determine that this is the path they're gonna have or this is the type of personality they're have. No, they are their own personality. And so he was suggesting what he said was so true, which is basically like you need to see your kids as a blank canvas for them to paint on. not for you to design. And I thought like, wow, that is such a powerful thing. And that's exactly what happens in families, right? My brother and I grew up in the same household with the same parents, with the same parental, you know, restrictions or guidance, but we came in the world with different personalities, right? And that personality led to different experiences as a child and different experiences through school ah and different. And what I mean by that is like, I was always, I had the determination to be a good kid, always do things by right.

Yeah, yeah, nice.

always brought up by the book, I got good marks and I had success. My brother was like the opposite. He was like, was hard to deal with. He got in trouble with the principal all the time. He got in trouble with teachers. Every principal and teacher knew about him. They always had this conversation like, are you a brother of him? Right? And that was the narrative. And so now whether maybe that's like, so that's why I'm saying he's not that he was like bad or he's a great kid. He's a teacher now. So he knows all the tricks and he's a great teacher. But the challenge is though, is that I think those experiences he had as a childhood probably lend himself to be like, I want a stable job. I remember him two years ago telling me, he goes, seven more years, I think, whatever, seven years. I go, seven years to what? He's like, seven more years to retirement. I'm like, what are you talking about? Retirement? And I was shocked. Internally, I was shocked to my core, because I was like, I don't even know what I want to do yet.

Hmm. What was that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And you're talking about retirement in seven years? Like it really shook me to, not in a bad way, like shook me to my core and going, what's happening to this? Like, wow, is this conversation happening right now? And it was so weird. And maybe we can discuss it at another time, but like that really rocked me to my core. going like, wow, this is, we have such a different worldview. He was coming to an end. Again, nothing wrong with that. I think he's great. know, he's got a great, you know, teacher's pension and whatever. But like for me, I don't have a pension.

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

right? Like, whatever I earn now is what I all I got. I don't have someone I can't rely on someone, which does, you know, it's a takes different, you know, you and I both know that it takes a different beast, right? To be able to handle that. um But he needs some people need security. And I think that's great. Like you need to kind of strap in some people like, you know, don't need that security, you're gonna have to fight for what we got. I think that's the world view that I think you're looking forward to that that challenge and shape me is that and I think

you Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

one thing, one decision reinforces the other and therefore it just kind of culminates and therefore those experiences stack up to who we are today.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's very, yeah. I think we should expand on this one. Actually. They think it would be a really good topic because the, you know, I'm in a couple of months, I turned 57 and I conventional wisdom says, you know, you, can have early retirement. I'm like, I couldn't Sure, you know, there's elements that have slowed down, but I can't visualize. have conceptualized. I'd be like your dad in eighties traveling. You know, that's the kind of life that I want to live. And consequently there has to be a belief system about what life offers for you to be open to those possibilities and opportunities. So, um, yeah, uh, yeah, fascinating. Let's, let's, let's circle back to this conversation. I think this, can definitely expand into a bigger program, but Lawrence, I want to, I want acknowledge you for bringing this to the table because it is like, the time this is heard, you probably would have already posted it, but to actually sit in that emotion, like, because if this was going out tomorrow, you've recorded something that, that has been, you know, basically, um, something that you're trying to make, uh, understand, I guess more, but you've given us insight into that. And I want to thank you for that because that, that is quite transparent.

I appreciate that. And, uh, yeah, it's still a story that's ongoing and shaping itself and who knows where this is going to take, but it's, it's weird as I left Canada and I'll leave off with this, which is, you know, when left Canada, I actually, uh, feel disappointed that I didn't get a chance to really spend too much time with, you know, my new, like, I guess steps, um, siblings. And, I actually made an effort to organize a dinner on our very last night in Toronto before we left and, to

Yeah.

you know, catch up, actually did spend some time with the eldest son. He came for dinner, which is great. And it's sort of like, oh, how do we plan? Like my brain now has gone to like, oh, how do we, what's our next step? Like, how do we plan to maybe meet up at some point? And I don't go to Toronto very often. And so it might be in another couple of years, but it's, at least I'm thinking in that realm. And so it's in a positive realm, which is before we heading in two weeks prior, it was like, oh, like dreading it. It's like, oh man, I don't want to meet these people. So yeah, it definitely has transformed.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I hope this journey and this experience have helped you kind of look at your life and maybe looking at taking chances and maybe experiencing life that you actually have always wanted to and figuring out a way on how to actually get more experience in life because at the end of the day, it's not going to be perfect. It's going to be imperfect. And that's the way we like it. So this is Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. Hope you enjoy it. Join us in the next episode. Take care.

Awesome.