Persevere, Pivot, and Perish

Welcome to Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. This podcast is always about the challenges that life brings and how you adapt to it. Jim, you have a great topic for today. I'm throw this to you because I feel like you're gonna be the guide this conversation and then we're gonna just have a crack of a conversation on this.

Sure, Lawrence. Well, a lot of it was, was inspired by the video you sent me during the week, to be honest, actually, you sent me this video of the an oriole, a biscuit that was, was, um, resurrected. And we don't know, I don't know whether it's a legitimate product that's been released or what, but you applied the principles. was a great play on the Wabi Sabi prospect of the, you know, gluing things up and putting things together where things have been broken and I don't know whether it's a huge marketing coup for the company that makes Orioles, whether it was just an example or whatever, but it, I guess it stimulated in my mind, the concept and idea that sometimes things don't have to be over. Things don't have to be broken. They can be resurrected if you look at things a different way. And sometimes you just need to adapt or pivot how you look at things to open you up to something possibly even better.

Yeah. So the video that was sent to us, basically taking Oreo cookies. And for those of you who know Oreo cookies, obviously the biscuit, it's like a black, I don't know. I don't even know if it's chocolate. think it's like sort of a black cookie with a cream filling on the inside. And, and like all of us, we've all bought cookies once in a while that has, you know, how, you know, some of the cookies are broken in it you know, it's crushed. And so the idea of this Oreo company is that they actually, you know, supplied, or you can buy the, the white filling in a way in a two, almost like crazy glue tube. And you can then now actually glue some of those pieces back together, sort of like the Wabi Sabi concept, right? The wabi .com said is to take a Japanese bowl and they used to crack it and find the cracks and they actually, you know, glue the bowl back together, but they line it with gold. So now you've got this unique piece of art in this bowl, which shows the imperfection. They don't hide the imperfection, they actually show you the imperfection, but it's highlighted in gold. And the same concept here in the Oreo cookie. So I think that when I send that to Jim, I'm think,

Yeah.

It's just such a brilliant way as example, not even it is exactly what we talk about on a daily basis. And, and you're absolutely right. So let's take it from a business perspective. I know we kind of, some people listen to this and coming from a business perspective, it's like a company now has taken, you know, a product or something that may, you know, have go wrong sometimes, or just taking a simple thing and then use that as a marketing idea, or at least an idea or concept or a new way to enjoy their product. I think that's super smart to be able to do that, to be able to pivot and add to it. And it's like taking an existing product and then finding another vertical, within the same vertical and then adding to that product line to enhance it.

Yeah, that's what we were talking about before. Like, do you think it was just deliberately done or do you think that they're just the recoiled broken biscuits that they just found a great way of recycling and reusing? Who cares? Like if it works as a concept, if there, if there's someone in there who's breaking the really perfectly good biscuits in order to create those crack form, I don't know whether they've got a division of that, but to me, if they were, you know, let's assume that they were the recalled. biscuits that were broken that consumers didn't want. They've just suddenly found a way of extending their product line and extending and minimizing their wastage. And to me, just by thinking about things in a different way. whether it's deliberate, whether it was accidental, whether it was just someone who went, you know what, we could, how can we use this by just asking a different question? They've extended their capacity and their revenue.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's sometimes you taking awareness of what's going on in the moment and then pivoting. think this is, so many of smart marketing ideas around that people are utilizing to, you know, really take a, like I guess really the term is turning, taking lemon and making lemonade out of it. Right. And it's like, it's spinning that around and then changing it. think from memory, there was, uh, just, you know, it comes to my mind is like Ryan Reynolds, uh, Ryan Reynolds, like recently with the whole, what's that bike that, you know, during COVID was massive. It's just on the tip of my tongue at the moment.

Oh, yeah, I know what you mean. know what you mean. It'll come. It'll keep going. Keep going.

Yeah. So anyways, obviously this famous bike company, you know, you can actually go, uh, and, know, plug it in. can actually join spin classes, uh, in there. And then, you know, you do this and there was a commercial that really kind of created some viral, not a sensation. It was actually criticism because it was almost like, I think it was for memory. was the, the, husband bought the wife, the bike or something. And then these, you know, people as we do, you know, saying how sexist that is, is, you know, the men. you know, buying a woman a bike to help her lose weight. Even though the intention of the ad was not to do that, right? And so Peloton, yeah, yeah, you're right. Peloton, it was Peloton. And so, you know, the poor woman, right? The poor woman, meaning the actress or the actor that played the woman was getting so much flack or hate because the way she, you she's acting, she's literally acting her role. But people can't sometimes tell the difference between reality and television sometimes.

The Peloton, no, the Peloton, yep. That's the one, okay. Yep, yep.

I think she was getting so much flack for playing this woman, whatever. Anyway, so like so much attention was going, we have those viral moments and this is during COVID, so we had nothing else better to do than to criticize whatever's online, I'm sure, right? And what was funny around that is that he, Ryan Reynolds being smart marketer he is, grab that woman and then use the same actor, right? The same actress to put it into one of his ads. you know, to promote something completely different, but using that spin from the energy and the awareness of what was going on in, in that was happening in, in Peloton and, know, and that's basically free marketing for him, right? Because it's just taking something with a detention and then shifting it over.

Yeah, but... And they had a huge backlash as well too, in publicity as well too, because there were people who were meant to have had heart attacks and the like on there. I think was it the movie, was it the sitcom Sex and the City or something where one of their characters was on there and he had a heart attack. So there was just this massive negative publicity about it. But what I liked about it, what you've done is that someone who's enterprising can look at the situation and go, hey, here's someone who's got some publicity. How can I piggyback off that? It's the whole principle of guerrilla marketing in a lot of ways really, where you actually find a way, because there's people who, and much to the chagrin of a lot of people who have paid money for great marketing, they'd pay all this money and then someone would come over off the top or from the side and just leverage off that and find a way to hijack that awareness in there. That's in a sense, is it ethical? Probably not, but we annoy the heck out of a lot of people who've

Hmm.

committed to that money in there. But that's another way of looking at the situation and going, how can I leverage this situation to maximally expand brand awareness? And that's pretty much what happened. That's what obviously Ryan Reynolds has done too.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, regards to life itself, we've been talking a lot about, you know, from the start, from the business and the ability to pivot. mean, you're in a situation right now when you think about, you know, we want to talk about pivots, like you are the pinnacle, the poster child of what's going on right now. I mean, really, we know what's happening in your life at the moment. So just to give some background, know, Jim right now is in, kind of in limbo, right? Like, so he, I think he announced it in our last podcast that he's moving to... now out of Spain and he's moving to Edinburgh, Scotland, because Bettina has got a job there now and has been hired there. So now the move continues after two years. And in Spain, he is now moving north to better weather and better climates, supposedly. and, and, and then so, but, know, they're in limbo because they need a visa. And so now they, we've already talked about, if you haven't heard that story, why they're waiting for this visa and the way they're doing it to make sure that they're

Pardon me.

betting on themselves, go back to our last episode. I think that's gonna be really important context. So now they're in limbo, they're trying to figure this out. And yeah, so Jim, I'll take it forward from here, because obviously, you know a bit better on what's going on.

I was, I was saying, well, how it started you in the background, you've got, and you said to me, Hey, you got that really, you know, hazy filter. I, and I go, Lawrence is not a filter. I'm right up against the, the, the blinds here, the drapes. The situation is that because we've got a dog that we're limited in where we can go and stay in. We had a great place lined up that literally got canceled within like a day of us moving in there. And so we had to find something really quick, smart that took a dog and we were limited by it. So I've got this great backdrop, but I want to show you in the ear, in the, know, when they say pull the curtains back, I'm literally going to pull the curtains back and show you the backdrop of where I'm recording.

Yeah, so for those of you who listening on audio and can't see, you're have to go to our video and then there you go. We have, you know, bit of clothing, we got some, I don't know if that's underwear or not, it's woman's clothing or not.

We there's, there's underwear there. There's underwear there. And there's a guy who insists on getting on his balcony, stark naked, you know, to just do his stretches in the mornings. It's just hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious. And so in Barcelona, if he's doing the downward dog, yeah, if he's doing the downward dog, I'm just looking away. Um, but, but we were, we were in a scenario. We had to go with what was available. We had to go with what was possible. And sometimes that's.

I hope he does the downward dog pointing directly at you.

what happens you know like when things happen very very quickly they're not always going to go to script and it definitely had to go to oh I think this is what here we go here's the go here's the guy I'm talking about and quite on cue but he's dressed but he's dressed oh this is hilarious but this guy honestly is fantastic he's down a dog anyway I'm gonna pull the curtains back now but he's going now

Oh, there you go. Oh, here you go. At least he's wearing a shirt. His dress. Yeah. Oh, Mr. Chef. I thought he was going to start cooking.

Yeah. So, that, but I know, I know, but that's going live. Right. And so I've had to, what I guess I demonstrated in that moment was my Oreo biscuit is broken right now. Right. In that everything that I have focused on for the last two years, I mean, I'm running businesses and enterprises out of a one bedroom Airbnb. Right. There's a lot of things that have technically been a real challenge. I've had to, when I've had to I don't have do this. have to go down the street, go to the post office because I don't have the printer. So all these things are there. my Orioles are broken right now. But in that moment, what I just tried to do is to go, Hey, listen, have a look at this. Let me show you this. And I've created humor in that situation to just go, you know what? Here's how it is. Like I've just got to go with it because if I don't, I'll blow up. Doesn't help. Right? So I've tried to create content out of the imperfection of my current situation. And it's all chosen and it's okay. It's not a case of poor me. It's more a case of it is what it is. Sometimes you just gotta embrace the suck and just work through it because what's on the other side of it is either a revelation about yourself or just a process you had to get through. That's it.

Yeah. Well, at the end of the day too, as well, as I think that in your mindset around this is that it's not, it's not just only accepting that this is not perfect, but also the reality is that you also know it's temporary. And the, and the thing that important thing is, is that it's important to recognize that someone's temporary might be someone's long -term. So meaning like someone might not be able to handle your situation for more than a day. You know, you've been doing it, you've been at this for weeks. And who knows? Like when I say temporary, it doesn't mean like, oh, it's only gonna be a couple of weeks. mean, theoretically, this could be months, right? And so the reality is that you are, you don't really know exactly when this is all going to finish. So you're just taking it one week at a time. But you're accepting that. And I think that's where a lot of people sometimes get stuck is that some people kind of think about, yeah, it's easy for you to say that, Jim, because you know you're be out of there. Well, we... does know he's gonna be out of there at some point, but we really don't know for how long. I it could be, you know, month away, it could be a couple, you know, could be tomorrow, who knows? But the reality is, that temporary means that it could be just temporary. I mean, mine was given to say, like when I first moved to Portugal, it was supposed to be temporary, right? It was temporary only about three, four months. It ended up being a year. So, you know,

You're the same. You're the same.

There's a point when you reach around, I think, probably around the six, nine months mark, you go, you know what? Okay, like I just gonna need to accept this, like rather than just thinking, hoping and praying, we were hoping and praying that it would be next two weeks or next month or whatever. And we just at some point goes, you know, I think we just need to like really accept this more a longer term solution rather than just expecting that this is a short term. Cause there's only so much hope you can actually have. And so you kind of have to switch from that temporary mindset to accepting. that this is a longer time than it actually is. And it goes back to the story around the paradox of choice, it was that, I'm just trying to, Stockdale paradox, yeah, that's right. Yeah, we talked about this before and know, the Stockdale paradox is like about a prisoner of war, John Stockdale in the Vietnam War and he was in the prisoner of war for seven years and when he got out, he talked a lot about, and just quickly similar because some of you have already heard it, he talked a lot about

The stock -tile paradox that you will. Yeah.

how he coped with, who coped better in the POW camps. And it was the optimists that actually died the first because they're the ones who always felt that we're going to, this is only temporary. And they just gave up hope after a while when they couldn't get out. And the people that accepted the realities of where they're at, know, meaning understanding that this is life, this is, you know, what it is, but doesn't mean you give up hope though. They still had hope, but they also accepted the reality of what it is. And today, I'll give you an example. I was coming home today after you know, taking my son bouldering and I, you know, we're doing some work in our garage, which is a year later, by the way, it's house is still, there's still stuff to be done. Anyway, so we had to, you have to go to a different driveway in the house. could just, uh, the different parking lot and it's really tight because all the cars are parked on the street and I had to make this turn. And I didn't have the radius and I can see like, Oh, my car could, could fit. I'm sure it could fit. And in that split second, I had a decision to either continue going forward or just back up a little bit and make the turn. I didn't back up for the first time and shh right. There's the scratch. And what was interesting though, it was like, I knew it right away. I'm like, ah, damn it. And I didn't even need to go see the car. I knew it was going to be scratched on the paint and whatever. The wall was fine. And I came out, my wife's like, did you see it? you know whatever, know, you know how she.

Oh, oh no.

that she just mentioned this, but the end of the day, so she was more upset for the next hour. She probably still looks upset like over the next hour or two hours than I was because the matter of the fact is to me, I guess in my head is like, it's done. Like, matter how upset I can get, it's already scratched. Like me getting upset and being more mad about this isn't gonna change whether the car is scratched or not, And where she, can see it, she's really irritated by this and. I don't know, like I just kind of just let it go. And that's what I mean, just acceptance is like, I'm not, not to say that I'm not mad or, you know, mad at myself for, you know, doing something, but the reality is like, I'm also going, well, I'm to have to fix that at some point. And being mad about this really isn't going to change. might as well enjoy my dinner, enjoy my time with my family and don't get wrapped up around this because energetically, it doesn't mean anything if I get mad right now. I think that's just one of those examples we talked about, you know, accepting.

Hmm. Sure. Do you think it was the reframe that you were able to do for that that helps? it just that because some people ignore and avoid and they have a feeling that things go away, but then there's other people who reframe it because by changing the narrative, by changing the story, you change the significance and the meaning and what it means. So did you consciously reframe that in your mind to be able to

Mm

get on with things and do you think Karen perhaps held onto part of that story which has probably been why she hasn't been able to look over it as quickly.

Yeah, I think... Yeah, think, well, there's a couple of reasons for that. Now let's expand this story and just hope she never listens to this podcast. And she can't hear me through this. let me explain this. So keep this hush hush. If you're listening and you know my wife, this is between you and the listeners. I'll just tell her to avoid this particular episode. Anyways, so to explain the situation, there's a car that parks outside of our gate. And because the way it's parked, we don't have enough room to kind of back out.

Just between you, me and our listeners.

it's been an ongoing sort of like resentment to that car. I don't think they know about it. And so it decreases the turning circle. So we have to almost make a three or five point turn to get out of our house of the driveway. So our car has been there for a long time. Now, it's one of our neighbor's cars because their driving is being fixed. So they have to force the park and they obviously just parked it without knowing. So that's the challenge. so the reason I'm telling you that story is this. it's irrelevant to what I'm just about to say is because when the accident happened, it compounded something that was already there, like 10x. Does that make sense? Like it's already annoyance, but there was more of annoyance before. But now that something happened, even though it wasn't to her, but to me, it now just escalated. And this is a perfect example when unresolved conflict, right? Unresolved conflict is when you

Yeah.

have like let's say you have something that you want to say to your spouse and you just or a friend or a boss or someone you just haven't had the courage to guts to say it and you keep it in you keep it up but it's still a noise the crap out of you and usually at some point you know something triggers and this is the trigger the trigger triggers this whole thing and blows up like a volcano it wasn't like it's not the scratch and it's just that it's now forced the issue because of that thing to something massively think that's why she's so upset. For me, you're asking the question, answer your question. I think it was, for me, it's a reframe. I think actually it just helped as I pulled back and as you asked that question, it's also because I saw how she reacted. I almost recognized in myself, I'm like, well, I'm not that upset. And it really made me pull back a bit. I'm like, well, should I be upset? I'm like, well, is it gonna help? No. Then why should I be upset? Like it's already... To me, like the reframe was being, well, there's nothing I can do about it. And I could live the next hour to be like angry at myself or I can just learn to let it go. the outcome doesn't actually change, right? The car is still scratched, right? And it happened to me the other day, like I'm sure you haven't already driving in it, honey. I made this corner for, I made that corner hundreds of times. For some reason, the wheel hit the curb.

Mmm. Mmm. you

I can feel it. was like, but I'm like, how on earth? And I, you know, I don't even need, I don't almost want to see the thing, but I'm like, okay, I gotta go see it. It was like pretty badly down. Like, what am I doing? Like, what am I, what's going on here? This is like two, two incidents in one. I didn't tell my wife this yet. But anyways, again, that's why you keep this between you me and every other listeners. But again, there is nothing I can do. Like, I was upset for her for a little bit, but I was like, well.

Yeah.

It's done, like you made a stupid move. What can I do about this? And I think it's a good analogy to life. And of course I don't react like this all the time. There are certain things that just, oh, you get mad. You know, you play a game of paddle or something and you're just like, oh, I can't let that go. But I've learned, actually in the game of paddle, I've learned to like, okay, made a bad point. But as I turn my back, move back to the service line, I go after the go, next point. Like there's nothing I can do about that, right? Learn from that point, let go of the energy and just move on to the next point. Because otherwise, if I'm getting upset with the previous point, I'm not gonna make this point worth doing. And I think those are some of the things I've been really kind of focusing on in myself to catch myself to not get too upset about certain things and let it go. Again, I'm not perfect at this. It's easier to let go about certain things and harder to do with others.

Yep. Right. Seeing as we've started this car theme, I've got to share a couple of stories of a really great friend of mine from back from university days, who to me, when I think back to this was the ultimate guy. never got frazzled. He never got sort of overwhelmed by stuff. With stuff would happen. He just always find a way almost like, you know, how some people are funny and they don't even try to be. But he was this guy. He was like that. So two quick scenarios. Once we're driving to to uni and as we driving to uni we look over and there was a car load of girls in the other car that we just started talking to and you know my friend's driving who should have been paying more attention and before he knows it bang he runs into a car in front of him and so I was like oops that's no good the police come and they interview him and you know at that time we're going oh man you know this is not great And so the police officer says to him, listen, what were you doing? Were you tailgating or were you speeding? Because there are only two options. And my friend stops and reflects for moment. goes, which one's the cheaper fine? And the cop looks at him incredulous. goes, speeding. He goes, all right, that's what I was doing. Right. And to me, it's the ability to think, like, can you imagine every other question that's been going through your mind?

Ha

Every other scenario, he just comes up with this really practical scenario. Same guy must've been finally gets his car back. Three months later, he goes, Jim, think he's driving. was his turn. doing this carpooling thing. drove some days and he's driving to coming back from uni this time. And he said, listen, I'm just hearing this little rattle in my engine here. think I'm just going to go into this auto electrician and just ask them if they can just have a quick look at it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I said, sure, no worries. So as we're driving in, he comes in, he does exactly what you just said. He missed times the turn. And as he's going into the workshop, he side swipes the whole of his car. Right. He gets out unfazed. He looks at it and he goes, do you also do panel beating quotes here? Do you mind if I just get one while I'm here? Like there was no, there was no, not a nanosecond.

No. You

of stress and I had to just, you know, afterwards, I go, how do you do this? How do you, how do you change things? Because things, you know, back to that stage of my life, you know, I guess I would either do what you just said. I I tend to suppress things a little bit more. things were a trigger. Quite often I'd express things in a little bit more frustrated way. He just says, look, you know, like no one died. It's okay. He just had this, no one died. It's okay. Yeah, I should have whatever, but that was his approach to life. And it really, I found that really helpful. And he, that's why I asked you that specific question. Do you reframe it and is it deliberate or is it just a view of life that you have that helps you look at it from a different perspective? And you kind of answered that along the way.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, think it depends on the situation and it is a skill. think you need to practice, uh, on a regular basis to kind of get to that stage and level. Like I said, I'm not perfect at it, but I think it's, it's, but you have to be aware of it though. Right. You have to be aware that that's actually happening. It's interesting. It's funny. You know, I was, I was, um, I was, I was actually at this, I had this really great conversation with my son on the car ride home today and doesn't happen often, you know, like I try to talk to him sometimes, but you know, he's 13 and, and I had this great conversation because you know, we went bouldering, as I mentioned before, and we went with one of his friends from his class. And, and she, you know, she got frustrated at one point when she couldn't do a particular route. And she fell and she can, she was beating herself up. And, and I use that as a, you know, just the comment to say, did you notice how, you know, she was really frustrated with herself? And, and it was interesting because he, you he picked up on it goes, Oh yeah, I guess that's probably the most I've ever seen her frustrated like that. But she does tend to beat herself up over things. And I'm like, Oh, isn't that interesting? goes, well, it's good that you're aware of it. And that's my point is being aware of it. Cause if you're not aware of it, of your own self, you can't actually change anything, right? You can't actually practice what we've just been talking about. So first thing is awareness. And then, we continue on this conversation and, and it was such a beautiful moment. you know, I'm glad I'm recording this, because I can actually just record it for the recording sake, because he said, you know, you sometimes I do that. And I was like, oh, okay, all right. So then now we're gonna have a conversation like, you do that, when? And then he goes on, it's really interesting what he said was, he goes, sometimes, you know, like the other day, you know, when you congratulated me on something or praised me for something, I can't remember exactly what it was, he goes, to me, his way of saying was like, to me, when you said that.

Hmm.

was almost like, I didn't think I did that great. It wasn't that great. And your praise has almost felt like a participation award. And I was like, oh, I was like, wow. That's some really amazing insight to be able to kind of go there. And I get it. I get it from his, because if you can remember someone who is, think that they did that well, and then you have someone praising it, they mean well, obviously meaning me or Karen.

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.

praising him for something. But to him at that moment, because he doesn't think he did well, he is, you know, taking that, he's not really accepting the praise. He's just knocking it as, you know, you're just saying that because you're my mom and dad, or you're just giving him because his participation that you think, you know. And, but in reality, it's, you know, so it's interesting to see from his point of view. I thought that was fascinating to be able to kind of look at it because when you are in that state of mind, and this is the point, is that when you're in that state of negativity mind,

you

it's very difficult to accept any positive feedback that's different than your view of the world at that moment in time. And the challenge I think was, is I said to him, I go, do realize that I would never praise you because I just for praising you say to make you feel better. I tend not to do that. I praise you because I really do see something in you. what I said to him, and I don't know if this is valid and you can maybe.

Hmm.

validate if this is good or bad. I just said to him, I said this and I think what's important for you is that when I, next time that thing, when something like that happens where you feel like you've done something poorly, whereas I say, I saw something in you and I praise you, I would love for you to just pull back a little bit for a second. Just in that moment, just be a third person and go, what if dad was right in that situation? What if dad's assessment was actually what happened was true and my assessment was so isn't. Like let that sink in further. not honest. I said to one, you know, don't need you to accept that. I just need you to maybe see it just so that for that possible moment, you can see, Oh, maybe there was some good things in that moment that I didn't see because I was so focused on the negative. But then also not denying the negative happening because I don't want you to do that either. Right. But to be able to take the never go, okay, how do I improve and how do I learn from So now you're kind of more balancing yourself. And I said to him, as kids, as you get into adulthood, as adults, we struggle with that. And if you can figure this out, if you can figure how to balance that at a young age, you're good. Like you're going to be good. It's when that, if you can't figure this out and it just perpetuates as the friend did, if she continues to perpetuate this negative thought and being yourself out, no matter what was good happening, you're always going to find the faults in life. And that will be a massive challenge.

You know, Lawrence, some of the best, I'm not surprised that you had this great conversation with your son today in the car because some of the greatest conversations I've ever had with our sons were exactly the same scenario. Because I think particularly with boys and if anybody's out there and they have kids and they're in teenagers category, you know, probably a little bit older, sorry, younger group that we're talking to, but. It's something magical. You can't force the issue. can't decide now is a good time for me to talk about these things. You got to take your opportunities when they come. And a lot of the times that's what I found when the boys defenses were down after they had sports training or bouldering or whatever they were doing and they're tired and they just look straight ahead in the car while you're driving. I don't know. It's almost like this hypnotic trance that they get into and they just open up. They let go of the defenses and the resistances and they can speak. So I too, you know, like there's a difference between expressing love. And so my love language is words of affirmation. So I would quite often regularly affirm that and, and, and let them know I love them through observation. And that was the thing that I got to realize over time was that I started more praising the effort, not the outcome so that it empowered them to find their own strength, their own. self -esteem through their effort and they could associate that with that. So it wasn't just, uh, at a boy for the sake of at a boys because while sometimes it's appropriate to, and you need cheerleaders along the way, sometimes you also need someone who can be objective that can, I can highlight to them, Hey, this is the process that you're going through is really good. What can you see in yourself that is, is powerful? What can you see that you can affirm for yourself that will help you that you can take onto? in further stages of your life. So it's a case of the old teach them how to fish as opposed to give them a fish right now, because right now you might feel good for a second, but it hasn't really shifted anything for them. And I think that was one of the biggest things that I learned in parenting, particularly teenage boys.

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, that's a huge element is to praise, you know, the effort put in and not necessarily the actual reward. And, and I guess, you know, now that I have reflection and actually said this out loud, I think that's probably why I wasn't so fazed about the car was because it literally happened on the, that was the, that, that talk happened and I pulled in and scratched the car. It's like, you know what, whatever just happened was so magical. I don't give a, don't care what happened. Like it's like, it doesn't matter, but Karen doesn't have that context because I've actually had that conversation with her on what happened yet.

Correct! Correct! Yeah! Correct! Yeah! But isn't it funny how you have this massive win and you go, alright today's a good day, whatever you wanted to ask me, now's the day to ask me because I'm in a zone. But isn't that fascinating because your perspective and your reference point will determine how you look at things. So suddenly you've had this massive connection with your son, right? You damage your car and you go, no big deal. Who cares?

So, yes. out. Yes. Yeah. Yep. Exactly.

Right. As I've had this magical moment that I, that I, that I would never change for the, so it's happened many, many times. And, um, yeah, you know, so I could see the context of it. So that's, that really is helpful to understand that in that situation where, you know, you, you've scratched the car and whatever, but you've had a situation, you know, another experience that, that bypasses the negativity of that in the scheme of importance and the scheme of fulfillment to go.

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, that wasn't great. However, you know what? I'd take that all day every day if it meant that I have these magical moments with my kid. And I totally get that. That makes total sense.

And I think if you reflect back on your friend's mentality and how his outlook in life and you he had the mentality of like, no one died today. It's okay. And so like, you can tell like the reference points for him is that, you know, it's, you know, whatever happened, he's comparing it to like someone dying. And if, if that's, if that's his reference, you can see like he's just stretched. It was like, it's okay. Like everything that we do, everything that ever happens to us, typically 99 % of the time it's okay. It's not the end of the world. When people say not the end of world, it's literally not the end of the world, right? There are certain moments where it's really sad and things are just terrible things that do happen. And we've all had the experience of that. But 99 % of the time, those things that are actually happening are happening to us. We make it worse than it actually is. We're exemplifying or, sorry, catastrophizing the situation way worse than it actually is. And I think it's, your friend has a really, really healthy view of the world by creating that opposite contrast to really, so he's not allowing something that could be really big. And most people take that. It's almost like, actually, here's the way I sort of things, most incidents that happen to us, or that's happening, there's no energy, good or bad. And the only good or bad is the art of valuation on how we see it and how we put it. So someone could take that mean, let's say it's at zero, could go to like negative 10, right? Because they catastrophize it, or they can just keep it at zero, or they can make it, you know, and flip it the other way and go positive. And so any situation could be positive 10 or minus 10, or somewhere in between, it just depends on how you see it, and how you perceive the world. All it comes down to is the story you tell yourself, the perception, how you see it, and what are you measuring that relative to. And that goes along with everything, pretty much, I think.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, Lawrence, everybody wants to hit a home run out at bat, or everybody wants that ultimate outcome of the result that you're hoping for. But the reality of life is it doesn't always work out that way. And I think that being prepared to sit in the heartache, the sadness, the setback, the frustration is where a lot of the growth in us occurs because

Hmm.

out of boredom. Like here's the thing, you know, like when we were kids, it was routine to be bored. I'm bored and I'm literally bored. Your parents would go get that piece of paper and just draw or go and knock that, you know, like get these rags to get, you came out with, you have a tennis ball, two sticks and you'd go, how can we create a game out of this? Right. And it was out of that frustration that innovation occurred. It was less than perfect, you know, and then one of your mates sticks will break and then you've got half a stick and you've got to create a game around that. But that taught us something about being innovative in the moment. If you don't routinely have that, you don't exercise that part of yourself. And if it's, if you go from one to the other and things are always perfect, what happens is that when you do get to a situation where it's less than perfect, you don't have the skill or or the resolve. or the tenacity to find a solution, you go from 100 % to zero. And to me, I'm always stunned where I can see people, we used to call them in front players, where they play very well when things are going great. But when things don't go well, they go to water. And that's not the reality of life, where there are seasons where things are tracking very well. And we've talked about this many, many times. It's not always going to get a plan. But how do you adapt, how do you keep progressing? How do you keep evolving when things aren't great? When you're cycling through or feel like you're walking through mud to progress, that's where the growth will occur. That's where to me the decision to keep progressing and moving forward, determine and help fortify elements of your character that the great times don't always do.

And it's this time of, you know, when a time of this recording, I mean, you know, you just had the Olympics coming through and there's no better example of that is in the stories of these Olympians and what's been happening. There have been moments of triumphs and there have been moments of like tragedies, you know, and some of these are just literally split seconds, like, you know, hundreds or thousands of a second from one color gold to a silver. And you know, I'm sure that sometimes like when, you know, people go to this, they will have these moments and they, and the unfortunate part or the fortunate part, depending on how you look at it, again, like some of these would have to take four years to redeem that moment, right? And you know, you spend four years or more really going after something and you lose it on a technicality, you lose it on a weird situation, you lose it on, I don't know,

Yeah.

some maybe it's the meal or what, there's so many little things that just go wrong. And I've seen it happen so many times and it's really amazing to me that, you know, that's the pinnacle. it's some people will take the defeat. I mean, I love to celebrate the winners, right? It's amazing to see it, but there's always some times when you take the defeat and go, what's the story they're gonna take? Right, what's the story you're gonna create for yourself? Because that story they take,

Mmm, exactly.

is really gonna change how the next four years goes. Because it could debilitate you and go, I'm not good enough or, you know, I'm gonna take this, you this is not gonna happen. Or you're gonna take that next four years to really gear towards where it can create some magic for you. And we can, I mean, there's so many stories. I don't know where you wanna start, but I got so many things I can, yeah.

I love them. I love, I love the Olympics. really do. It's the celebration of, you know, like when people go, Oh, look, everybody, it's another theme and it's actually been contentious. The, the, Olympics here, they've been, you know, very much in there. So for a whole lot of reasons, but to me, the Olympics was always about the celebration of the best to me. It's like, it's phenomenal story and there's great stories that come to it. And out of all of those, out of all the events,

very much.

the hundred meter sprints are always my favorite. Love them, love them, love them. Right. And to watch how close that one got, my son afterwards, Jerry Seinfeld has this sketch where he talks about the Olympics and the sprint. And sometimes the difference between first and second is head position. And that's exactly what happened with Biles. just literally, he literally fronted forward and he won that. And so the separation of gold,

Puh, yeah. Yep. Yep.

to never heard of him who came forth was just shoulder position. It's just fascinating. how do you foot went correct, correct. Yeah. It's about the trunk, the chest. the, so, so to me, there are so many interpretations of that. There's a celebration of that, but there'll be people who will just be devastated gone four years. I got within 0 .005 of winning a gold medal. Um, there's so many different ways of

Yep. Even though that the other person's foot crossed the line before him, right? But it's not about the foot. It's about the chest, the torso. Yeah.

expanding on that and yeah, they could come back, they could be even better next time around because the ones that I always love, you know, I love the story of the person who came and they're on their third or fourth Olympics. They came in, they didn't place, they got a bronze 12 years ago, they got a silver eight years ago, four years ago, they came runners up. And to me, that just shows the perseverance of of the human spirit. And to me, someone who can keep coming back again and again and again is a wonderful story that inspires me in so many ways.

Well, I mean, there's another one that I can think of, which is an Australian swimmer. Her last name is Jack. And, you know, four years ago, she at the, I think the Australian trials, she was suspended and fined because of drugs. They found drugs in the system, very minute amount of drugs, which was she contained, she tested it to say that it was something she didn't know. wasn't like, cough syrup or something that she didn't realize and she had minor traces of it. And they banned her from the sport for like four years. She fought over in court. everybody called her in Australia, called her a drug cheat and all that stuff, right? She gets, doesn't get into the Olympics, obviously in the 2021 Olympics in Tokyo. And, you know, and then she had to fight her way back. And what was interesting, I remember the very first day, day one, when there was the four by 100 meter freestyle relay females, they won gold, Australia, and Jack was one of them. And you're like, wow, like I'm like, is that the same Jack? I think I can't remember her first name. think Shaina, Shaina Jack, I can't remember her first name, but is that the same person that was, know, that couldn't go to Olympics because they found drugs in her system? And sure enough, I went back to the stories. I'm like, yeah, that was it. She went four years later fighting all of that battle, legal battle to fight her way to get reinstated, dropped the, I think they went from four years to two years suspension and now gone into the Olympic team, comes back, wins the gold medal.

Yeah. Yep.

I mean, how amazing of a story is that, right? Those are the stories you kind of want to hear because sure, anybody with that scrutiny of a whole nation coming down on you and saying you're calling you a drug she could easily have turned that around to crush someone's sorrow, crush someone's mentality and to really destroy their confidence and anything into why bother, why bother with this, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And that speaks to a lot, a lot to her spirit, to her tenacity. Then you've got the others, you know, who from the outsider in it was Gabby Thomas from the US who won gold medals. Now she's like, you know, it's all been heralded and they've said, look, she's an incredibly attractive woman. She's highly educated, graduated from Harvard, graduate epidemiologist.

Hmm Harvard graduate neuro neuro neurobiology.

Neurobiology and and and I heard this I saw this meme today that says you know how the people say out there There's someone who's always better. Well, that's her right and so she's the epitome of the the story that you just look at and go hey man, how could that even get any better and We celebrate those people what?

Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, it's funny. It's so funny because I watched the 200 meter funnel and I actually stopped everybody from watching whatever they were watching. And I go, can I, can we watch this 200 meter funnel? I turned on the TV, you know, and everybody's watching my family. I was watching and even Karen, when they won, used to go, Karen's like, she, and when they said, you know, she won the gold medal, and she goes, and she was a Harvard graduate. And she goes, she got, went to Harvard too. Okay. So she's good looking. She's athletic. She just want to go, and she's smart. I'm like, when.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And she literally made the same comment you just made. goes, when you say that someone can't have it all, she has it all.

Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Right. And so that that that is, I mean, and I think that's a really important thing. And to celebrate people who do that. And we don't know the pressure that she has to be because in her world she has to go, oh, yeah, it's all right for you because you have this and this and And probably a lot of people will down regulate and down talk how hard she's had to work for that. Right. So to me, there's always a story. There's always these assumptions that the grass is always greener somewhere else. It's okay for you. Not really, not really, because yes, you know, no one was probably there. I didn't think you parachuted into Harvard. I don't think you get an Olympic gold medal just by hoping. And they've been, I'm sure they've been challenges in the way. Great. Okay. You've, you've, you've gotten some, some great head starts in some areas, but

Hmm.

If I was incorrect, there will probably have been some cultural challenges that she's had to cycle through and discrimination just to even get onto the track. So to me, that's the story as well and the challenge.

Mm Yeah. And what we don't see is the mental fatigue or the challenge, the expectations, the heavy burden that she would have on that shoulder to, what would you do in those situations? Like, you know, and, and we don't know, she could be having something, you know, some Simone Bios is the perfect example, top of the world, best gymnast in the world. But you know, she had, she had to pull out, didn't she? She pulled out, you know, four years ago, because she could, like, she's just mental. She goes, I need a break. And people criticize her for you being like you're pulling out for the wrong reasons, why are you doing this? But she had a mental breakdown, but she needed to take some mental time off to do that. And we all criticize her for not being strong enough. And here she comes back, you know, four years later and just freaking dominates the whole entire field. And so that's incredible for her come back in the story. But in the moment, there's so much criticism, especially in today's world. And it's really sad to see to kind of go through that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Again, though, going back to what we're talking about is that it's you got to train, you got to train for it. I'll give you one last story, you know, before we just kind of make this all about Olympics. But I think this importance is exactly what we're talking about, which is, know, there's a for those of you don't know, there's a great kayaker, Australian kayaker, Jessica Fox. She won gold last year and started four years ago and now she was going for she won two golds and she missed out on a third gold, but her sister won that gold in that event, which is a fascinating cross kayaking event. But the story is that I actually started, I watched a video with her training for, I think this upcoming Olympics. And one of the things that they did, so in kayak, just to kind of put the context, so kayak, basically go down canoeing and kayak, basically go down a rapid and you got to go through certain buoys. And you either sometimes for some buoys, you got to go down. forward and then some boy you got to turn around and go around and got to go upstream and then come back down. So you got to go through a course and it's timed. And so one of the training sessions that I watched, she went to this guy and basically what he got him to do was she would have to do a whole bunch of skiergs, right? Or just a roller or whatever, just get the heart rate. So then you're now under fatigue. And then after a certain amount of time, she would then put her on, on a thing and he would throw tennis balls at her, right? And, and then she would have to dodge them. And then, then she would have to

Wow.

And then she'll go back to the skier and just do the ski, get the heart rate up again and get the body working. And then she had to do the, you know, the, uh, the lights that you have to touch the lights and reaction time. And what was happening was that what they were training her was to go. It's easy to kind of do the reaction time, but it's like, how do you do it when you're under fatigue though? Right. What happens under fatigue? So that's why they had to get the heart rate going, you know, do it to a speed skier. So now you're the hardest pumping and you got to do reaction time. Like how do you, how do you deal with that? Because in her sport, sometimes you just hit a rabbit wrong, right? And maybe you miss a boy. How do you react in that situation? Do you get frustrated or do you kind of let that, that last boy go and focus on the next one? And that is the key because no one runs a perfect race. It's very difficult to run a perfect race. And that's what they're trying to teach them is that during the practice, it's like, happens when you're going down the rabbit and you miss something? Michael Phelps did this, I know I said it was this last time, but there's Michael Phelps, one of the greatest, obviously, Olympian swimmers. During training sessions before the Olympics, his coach used to mess up with his goggles. He would make it loose, whatever, and put holes in it, whatever, so that when he didn't know about this, Michael Phelps, but when he dove in the water, the goggle would fill up with water. He wanted to see and train Michael Phelps and go, what are you gonna do? Because sometimes, when you dive in the water, the goggles might flip off, they might fill with water. Are you still gonna be able to handle the situation and still race? Because you can't go, oh, sorry, guys, let's stop the race for a second. My goggles fell off, let's start again. You can't do that. so what I'm saying is, I guess, it's training. It's training not for perfection, but training for imperfection. When the worst case scenario happens or some things bad happen, how do you react? And that is trained in an Olympian, that? So that's no different than us. That you have to train yourself to be

Yeah. Yeah.

Can you adapt when the pressure is on? Because if you can't do it for small things, you're definitely not going to be able do it for big things. And so the training is life.

Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, love it. Two quick things for me. And then I reckon we start wrapping up. So with pilots, the way that they prepare them for training is to take them out and switch off the engines and some of the engines to simulate engine failure, to show them how they adapt. And so they're not counting on things going always to plan. They're building in contingency for when things don't go right. So that's along that line.

and

I'm glad that they teach them that because if an engine fails and you're going, Oh, we're in trouble here. There's a huge ramifications and impacts there. But the other thing just going back to some of my balls, just for a moment, I loved her comment. I'm not sure if you caught it when someone said to her, this is my fantastic, amazing what's next. And she said, is it okay that after training for four years, I can just stop for a moment and just appreciate this moment right now without worrying about the next thing. And I thought that was brilliant. because it just brought the whole thing about, let's just acknowledge how hard that's been and stay in the celebration for a moment rather than being perpetually addicted to what next mountain am I going to conquer and just let me enjoy that. So I really loved seeing that. I loved her having the presence to be able to just bring it back to this moment and to celebrate. So Lawrence, this really...

Yeah. And I guarantee that was that guarantee someone has taught her that or some mental coach has worked her through that to, really focus on that. And, uh, and that's the key element, right? That's the element of practice and training and really rebuilt that mind because the core essence of this particular podcast, you know, what I feel like is, is that you got to train your mind. You have to train your mind for these situations, um, inevitably. And this is what this whole podcast is really about. It's like we're sharing.

Yep.

all these ideas, the situations that are not ideal, how do you handle those situations? And because if you don't put yourself in those situations to fail or to recognize how you adapt, you're not really gonna know. then you don't want it to be something really terrible before you actually make a decision on it. I think it's good to practice on the little things too.

I'm done, Lawrence, I've got nothing more to add. So I think we can wrap it up there and it was a great topic. I really enjoyed it today and I got to show everybody the backdrop and my neighbors aprons and underwear on display. So if you happen to catch the live version of that, let me just say it was just amazing.

you Yeah, you should maybe send him the video and let him know that he was famous. Anyway guys, so this is the episode of Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. We look forward to seeing you at the next episode. Talk to you soon. Take care.