Being successful in marriage

Well, welcome WabiSabi. This is the great episodes of, well, not just this, the whole podcast is really about the art of imperfection. And we thought we'd bring in a topic that I don't think we've ever covered yet. We talked, you know, bits and bits and bobs about it as through our conversation. But is there another topic that you can think of, Jim, that actually has multiple imperfections during a long -term relationship other than, you know, than marriage itself, the topic of marriage. We haven't really spent much time talking about marriage. And I thought, and you brought this great point about you being interviewed today on a podcast with you and Bettina around relationships. And I thought, man, this would be a perfect topic around marriage and the longevity of marriage and how to create successful long -term marriages and how to make it

Yeah. Great point, Lawrence. it's actually, that was, that was the catalyst for it really, because this person interviewed us for a program and said, look, you've been married for 35 years. You know, how do you do it? How do you keep making it work? it luck? Is it a whole lot of things? Do you never not complain? I'm like, do you never know? I was like, no, no, it's none of that. And all of that. It's, it's a, it's a work in progress and it's not a set and forget thing. It's The 2024 version of us is totally different to the 1989 when we met and started dating. And had we not evolved and grew together, both individually but also as a couple, we wouldn't be where we are today. And I think the paramount to whether you're talking about relationship, when we talk about primary relationship, because we are both traditionalists in the sense that we have both been married. But the principle within that is applicable to multiple areas of life as

So let's put some context right at the beginning so that people understand where we're coming from. Obviously, everybody has, know, not every relationship has, you know, differences and every relationship is, there's no like scripts, right? If there was a script, there would be a book and there'd be a book on just marriages. And this is not the case. We're just talking, we're just two guys talking about, you know, what we think making our marriages work. Will it work for others? We don't know, but we're just trying to keep the concepts and the principle, you know, from what has. transpire for us and might be the same. It might be different. So I'll be interested in kind of see where that goes. But for context, Jimmy, you said you've been married for 35 years.

It's a, we've been together with Bettina for 35 years. We have been approaching 30, basically 2012 is when we got married. So we're approaching 33 years, 32 years this year that we've been married, but together for 35.

Well, together for 35 and married for 32 years. Yeah, 32 years, okay, great. So what year did you get married?

Yeah, this year. 2002 sorry 1992 what am I talking about? 1990 so I did my math wrong. did my math wrong. Sorry 1992 It's just that it just feels like yesterday Lawrence so to 19 Yeah, sorry Mark that mark that up. You're right. You're right 1992. Let's go. Let's start that again. Yeah, so 1992

I was gonna say, was gonna like, I don't know. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, great. I wanted to make sure because I knew that was going to come back. I like, I thought I heard 2012 and I'm like, okay. Okay, all right, perfect. All right, and Karen I have been yeah, yeah We've been together for 20 29 28 years we've known each other for 28 years And we've been married for 23 years. So so that's the context I think that's good to set that up just so that people can understand where we're coming from. All right, so What do you think? know, why do you think? Actually, let's start with why

I'll never forget that day. Yeah, except that the year I stuffed up totally.

marriages don't work or what has your experience been with people that you know of that have, you know, gone through divorces or separations? And I think that sometimes, you know, sometimes I know that some for sure, like certain marriages are just not meant to last and they really, you know, it's better that they actually split up and they actually go and meet someone else and that actually works better. So why do you think are some of the main reasons why marriages

Well, fundamentally, there's the recurring themes that I've seen over time, whether it's in friends, with people that I've known, it's communication and trust breakdowns, paramount in a lot of those. And that can have multiple ramifications and impacts, but fundamentally is lack of trust in that person to be the support for you, the person on as the agreements that you have, whatever those agreements are, they're not just basically fidelity agreements. There could be other types of agreements that you have in there as well too. But then also the lack of communication where things show up as issues and problems. And I think at the start of that is Hollywood movies portray the romantic period as something that's going to be everlasting. The prince meets the princess and they meet and they live happily ever after. And that lasts for a period of time up until the realities and the messiness of life gets involved. You you have kids, have mortgages, have responsibilities and you can't just trade on that for the rest of the relationship. And to me, I think it's almost an illusion that people start with that sets them up for disappointment and failure later

Yeah, it's great that point that you made around movies because we do live through the stories of movies and that's how we get, you know, a lot of our expectations, I guess, or set certain type of reality or dreams of how life should look like. But we also forget that a movie is 90 minutes to two hours long and they compress that whole journey from beginning to the happily ever after in that 90 minutes. two hour cycle. And so we feel like, it's, that simple. And it's almost like watching say Rocky or any of those type of movie where you use transformation and, the montage of the person training is it's it's kind of like a three minute song. And you're like, wow, like they went from flab to fab in less than two minutes here. And it's like, man, I just got to get to the gym and just do a couple of sit -ups and push -ups and man, I'll be fit like that too. And that's, then you realize when you hit the gym, you're like,

montage training yeah he did it in three minutes wow I'm

This is way harder than it actually looked on the movie screen. And you can use that as inspiration. I mean, of course, like I know I have, I've always drawn from these movies of, know, aspirations and taking them and then try to apply it. when you actually apply it to the real life, that it becomes quite a bit of a challenge.

Yeah, totally. And that's, think, the what sets things up for disappointment, because you're right. No Hollywood movie is going to highlight taking out the rubbish or or basically making sandwiches for your kids for lunch or all the mundane things that relationships a lot of the times are built on is that picking up the kids or driving them to sport or being there for the all the like all these commitments. And that's the reality of a lot of families are alike. There's a lot of Mundane things that have to get done that when that you pull them all together you have these magical moments Consistently and you can set them up for that But there's a whole lot of things that just have to get done in order for the good highlight reel to happen and we don't we don't realize that they The mundane or the routine or the important things that have to get done The glue that keeps the family a lot of times together

Yeah, I think I'm gonna come back to communication in the future there because I think it's such an important topic that we're gonna go through. I think one of the other challenges that I think that creates marriages not to work is the, the, how do I put this? Not adapting and evolving together through time. You know, when I first met Karen, we were 21 years old.

Yeah. Yep.

and it was actually on my 21st birthday. And so, you know, at the time, if you, know, I thought I knew the world. I knew what I wanted. I knew what life was about. I mean, just remember that time. Everybody go back to that time. If you're not 21 yet listening to this, you know, I'm sure you'll feel that way when you hit about 20, you're like, man, I know the world. But then you, you you fast forward 10 years, you know, when you're 30 and then you look back and like, I knew nothing. Like, what was I thinking? And then when you go back to, you know, four days, you look back and going, Oh my God, I was just a kid. Like I look at some 21 year old now, I'm like, surely not. I did not look that young. Surely that I was not, you know, acting that way when I was young. But the reality is, is that I probably was. And, and that's the challenge. I see myself in, you know, the, age that my daughter is in, uh, and in my kids, I'm like, I don't think I was like that. was way mature than, than that. And that's when it really hits me of realizing that I just knew nothing. And so you think back when we're both 21 years old and what we thought we wanted, and if we kept on having the same expectations on ourselves, and you add that to the same expectation on our relationship and not change and evolve together, I think that could be a real big challenge. Now this leads to the point I think which is really important, actually not a point, but just to address this, is we evolved at different pace though. I don't know if you and Bettina did that or not. Like I knew that we evolved at different pace. I remember having a conversation with Karen around this and there was a little bit of insecurity where one was evolving faster than the other. Not right or wrong, we just knew we were evolving faster than the other personally, not together, like personally. And the challenges we had to go through to ensure that, you know, this one speed up or does one person slow down or like how do we navigate that part? I remember having that conversation early on in our relationship. I can't remember if we were married at the time or not but it was definitely something that we had to chat about. So evolution of time, think that's an important element that I think people don't do it together or don't have a conversation about it or actually don't continue to have those conversations and one person is holding the expectation of how they used to versus about where they're going and then wanting the same thing moving forward and that creates the conflict.

Yeah, I think you highlighted a very good point there in that it's the iteration and the growth trajectory of the individuals between, I think it's important to individuate and grow individually and then also grow as a couple because, know, having one person doing all the growth, what I've seen time and time again is if one person is committed to growing themselves and improving themselves and one isn't, you will generally outgrow that relationship. And you might have started. So, but I may have started with specific commonality around historic experiences, child experiences, wounds. A lot of people get together because of wound based relationship. And what happens is that someone will do the work to recycle through that, to learn, to transform, to grow. Another person may not. They suddenly go, I actually don't need this influence in my life anymore. I don't have the same situation. And so I think it's really paramount that there's a growth process

true.

an individual so they express their highest and best version of themselves. But then also as a couple to reflect and say, how do we keep getting better and stronger? You know, how does the 2024 version of us so much better than 10 years ago? And how have we grown? How are we getting better together with age? I think is a it's an ongoing process. You can't just sit and forget and hope it'll take care of itself because like any relationships, like any plant, unless you water it, nurse, you nurture it, unless you feed it the right ingredients and the right circumstances in the situations it might thrive and a relationship is no

Yeah, and it's such a hard thing to do because you know, you as you especially in your 20s, if you meet early in your 20s, oftentimes you're, you know, there's so much growth to be learned and it could your growth can be so fast and so rapid. And also your desire and dreams, you know, has to be in some people are really focusing on, you know, becoming something, you know, and some people are just content and being happy where they're at and there's no drive and in I think that's Oftentimes though, at that stage in life though, if you meet around that time, it could be you're very similar. But it's the projection of how you're gonna be in five years where one is, you might be the same when you first meet, but if one is so much further, has so much aspiration and the other person is happy where they are, that gap is sometimes very, very difficult to catch up. And I think that these are the things that you need to look at. And this is why we're spending some time talking about, because as I mentioned earlier in another podcast, another recording, I'm sure, we talked about is that, you know, if there's, there's certain decisions in life that are super important, I'm talking, I remember listening to Morgan Howes, I mean, he said that there's like really only two or three decisions in your life that really changes the trajectory of how your life is going to turn out. And you know, there's decision on what you invest in stuff, but those are like, you know, the decisions and yes, it would change it. But the major for all of us, the decision, one of the major decision is actually the, the person you choose to spend the rest of your life with, that partner really does change massively. It can really impact. so it's so important to really consider that decision carefully because it does affect so much of your life and how it's gonna turn out. And if you get it wrong, it has devastating effects.

Yeah, totally. So I think it's so that's where sometimes, you know, I actually wrote about this recently, because I was really sitting with it with this whole concept of compatibility. And this day and age, people are obviously looking for all efficiencies and simplification. And most people are looking for compatibility, particularly in relationship. A lot of friends of mine, a lot of clients who are looking for a relationship, we look for compatibility match with somebody, you You like this, I like this. You support the 49ers, I support the 49ers. You like red, I like red. And so we're compatible. What I've also found though is it's more than that though. It can't just be about what you are compatible with. It's also where you complement each other as a couple, as a group. That I think is very important because there are specific things that you in the relationship will do exceptionally well that Karen go, oh, that's not for me. But together,

But

you form a great bond and a union that gets it done. And vice versa, she may be really great at something you're not. So you complement each other by virtue of that. And that to me is the dynamic or the dance over time that ensures that you are in a vibrant and stable and developing relationship.

Yeah, I think majority of time though, you know, or at least when during our era, it's changed a little bit nowadays. But during our era, the way we meet people is actually through some commonalities, right? Whether it be through a sports club, or whether we go to the same university, whether we have particular interests, you know, you happen to be part of a same gym, or you happen to be part of the same club, or you part of you Like you said, you know, like the 49ers and they have to be, you know, met them as a fan or whatever like that usually kind of brings people together. And so you start with commonalities, but that alone, like you said, isn't going to be enough. And you need to understand that the differences because we all, we all know that the saying is that opposite attracts, right. And it's funny that we say that because there's, think if you, if you look at most couples dynamics, they do. If you look at very carefully with a lens, there are a lot of things. that they're different at, different skill set. And I think you need that to balance out the relationship because if one is more detailed, the other one needs to be more, know, thinking, right? And then someone is more on time, the other one is usually a little bit more spontaneous. And I think that balance needs to be there in a relationship. I always wondered though, that, does mean that they attracted that way before or is it more that you kind of once you have a relationship over time, it's almost like dynamically one has to take that responsibility because the other one it won't. And so therefore creates this tension that needs to be there in order for that relationship to work because if both partners are hyper detailed orientated, or both partners are very, you know, spontaneous and stuff like nothing gets done. And so there's there's there's some downsides when when that's when it's not there. So but again, I'm sure we have couples like that. I'm not saying that that's the only thing I'm not saying opposites attract is the best way because what I'm also saying is that we're yes, opposites do attract but there's also a lot of commonalities, right that are very, very similar that are very much alike on what appeals to those couples. And it's I think, for you know, it's sort of getting into not solutions, but to what makes marriage work. I think the combination of those two things is that there's a certain element that is common to both parties and there's also differences that are very different from the both parties and I think that combination of those two things, similarities and differences, is what makes something works over time.

Yeah, do you think I've often thought about this, you know, do you think it would be harder to be starting a relationship now than when we started

in 2024 and sort of, yeah. I think so. And here's my rationale for a few things. think one, you are now, I don't think our kids or if I was my daughter's age, she's 16, she's turning 16 soon. I think nowadays friendship groups are formed differently. There's a lot of more online.

Yeah,

So the conversations are shorter, quicker, and more visual, and it's more on the phone kind of, so you're building a relationship there. Whereas in our generation, we were forced to engage publicly, in a sense. So I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just different, right? Which means that you had to really, I know, I remember I had to really create the skills physically. to create conversation and to create the attraction, right? Whereas now I think it's slightly different. Like you don't have to do that as much. You don't have to put yourself at risk in that realm. You can kind of hide it behind other skill sets through a phone or through texts and everything else. But however, what challenges is that I think what's gonna lead to more problems is that lack of reading people, the lack of communicating with people. I think that hinder long term relationships in the future. I don't know if that's true. I'm just sort of speculating here based on one observation.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the view that I've had as well too, because a lot of the times I think that what helps a relationship develop is, is time is a lot of quality time. Like, I mean, as kids, we, we would have hours and hours of unstructured time where sometimes you're goofing around with your friends. not really, you you might be playing something or you might be doing something, but you'd have hours of just communicating and talking and developing those social bonds, those social groups and networks. Now socialization is totally different, you know, because at one stage I remember hearing my son and he's talking while he was gaming at some stage and like, who are you talking to? And he says, I'm gaming and I've got six guys around me, you know, like six guys in different parts of the country or the world. And I'm playing this game and we're just chatting and talking about it. So socialization.

True.

is really different. And if you filter it through relationship there, the traditional courting process, the getting to know someone to forge those deep bonds, not just width, but depth, they take time. And perhaps the process of what took us to that point historically is not happening now. So to me, that's the thing that I have. We've spoken before about, we potentially, because the neuroplasticity in the brain because of the way we learn and we're not doing deep thinking. We're a lot more at a superficial level of scanning and filtering through looking at a news feed, flicking through articles. We're not really going deep on things, so possibly not getting the connections at a deep brain level. I wonder whether that's the same thing that's happening to relationships because we're not nurturing the way that we used

Yeah. And a lot of, um, obviously the social media, the technology, the Netflix, the YouTube's, all of those things are very easy to distract us and then entertain us really, uh, from really doing the deep work. know what does to me, like it's so much easier. And I get caught up in, you know, watching some YouTube, YouTube video than actually doing some work. sometimes. I'm watching videos that are actually helpful and is knowledgeable, but it is a distraction. I know this is a distraction. And so, you know, as more and more kids are more distracted, they're not really necessarily thinking about unless thinking about, you know, their growth or whatever, unless you intentionally put that as an intention to, to want to grow. And then or put your intention to kind of create those relationships. And I think it's a lot easier for nowadays to just go, Oh, yeah, we're suited together. And then we kind of move on. what we're talking about, what makes the marriage work is that continual growth together, the continual conversation, the continual change and evolving over time that is necessary in a relationship to work. And I think that sometimes we, you know, we forget, and it's not just about marriage, it is about like friendships, right? Friendships require a starting point and it does take time and nurture. We just can't all of a just be best friends all of a sudden. Like sometimes you do, sometimes you meet like your soulmate and you just go like, wow, he's, you know, such a great guy. We just hit it off right away. But there's most of the time, there's some nurturing process. You kind of get to know someone. You start to question and it's, know, a romantic relationship is no different than a friendship relationship. The only difference is the attraction and the sexuality behind it, right? But really the depth of friendship is really such an important element of growth that requires time and energy and really intention to make it work. And I think so same thing with marriages is If you both don't have the intention to make something work long term, it can be very, very challenging. But most of the time, if we're being distracted by other things, then we're just happy at where we are and we just kind of cruise. And that cruising is what's scary. It just leads to a point of unhappiness that you didn't even know why you're unhappy. Because you just ignored. the troubles because you just hide it under distractions, hide it under just of Netflix or YouTube or whatever it is, because you never really dealt with the issue. And you blame it on surface issues, you blame it on other things. It's like, oh, he's just too busy for me. Or, you know, you blame it on whatever he's always at the gym or you know, she's always at the gym and hanging out with her girlfriends or whatever the excuses but really, that's the surface level, right? Those are the things that they're doing.

Yep.

and you attribute to that but not really looking in and deep and goes, why are they doing that? Why is he going to the gym all time? Why is she hanging out with her girlfriends all the time? Right? And without actually having the deep conversation of going, do we want to make this relationship work? And what does that look like?

Yeah. You know, Lawrence, I was just just thinking at the moment, the risk of us even bringing this conversation to the table is that is to be labeled a conservative right wing extremist purely because we believe in an institution of marriage. Right. And if that is how I'm viewed, then I'll wear it happily because fundamentally I had a view of life and I wanted a family I wanted someone to share my life with me. if that challenges people's dynamic of what relationship is in there, I'm guilty as charged. So I'm okay with that. I wanted to present that as a model to people who feel disillusioned by that to say, you know what? is, it's not just your either or, even if you decide that that is how you want to do that, there's still work involved. And part of the conversation that came up today being interviewed was, you know, one of Both our boys have said to us, look, the greatest gift that we ever had was having a happy, stable family life. We always knew mom and dad cared for each other and we had unconditional support and love. That was great. Because at the same token, the flip of that has made this a really difficult bar to basically override. And I didn't realize that the challenge, their model now is, okay, I've got to go into any relationship with the view of my references, my folks have been together for 35 years in a scene in an environment that maybe not values traditional relationship in the same way. So they're in a bit of a conflict in terms of how that looks for them and some of the challenges that brings up for them. So anything you want to comment on that?

Oh, that's interesting. Like, first of all, I'll make the comment around the conservative thing. I can't I just beyond I don't understand why this isn't even an issue. To be honest with you. To me, like, I'm not I have no I guess my point, I guess I'm trying to get to my point here. With using the right words, because the key elements is that building a relationship, whether it building a relationship, like I mentioned before, that's statement before, building any relationship, whether it be in a marriage, whether it be in a friendship, you and me, for example, right? Building a relationship with a business partner, building a relationship with your best friend, it's the same foundational elements that is exactly the same. That's what I mean.

Yeah.

what we're talking about is just building a relationship, which is honing in on marriage specifically and what makes that work. But whether it be a husband and wife, whether it be two women or two guys, that has no differences because the relationship still has to work in a similar manner, right? Building, mean, what makes it work and what makes it last is still the same fundamental human instincts and emotions and the work that needs to be evolved to get to that level to make a long lasting lifelong relationship, right? So that's one comment. Going back to what you sort of said about the predicament that you're in building such a strong relationship for your parents, for your kids to look up to and emulate and now have to compete is the wrong word, but set a bar for them to go and that's what you know, that's what you know, they have to match. I have no problem with that. To be honest with you, I'm like, damn straight, like I'm like, yes.

Time. Time.

This is the standard, right? This is the standard you should look, you should look at our relationship and go, that's the standard. And I want you to do better. Right? Because I mean, but isn't that, you know, like, we're in the midst of the, you know, like, I say the Olympics, for example, like when someone breaks a world record, that's the standard. And so now the standard is like, that's what we're aiming for. Now, we're not

Yeah, totally.

know, someone does, I don't know, let's just call it they the time turned in 2024. They turned into this, the time of what was recorded in 1960. That's not the standards you're working from. You're working from the 2020 or maybe probably the 2020 World Championships in 2023. That's the standard you're working from to beat that, right? That because you're beating that world record. That's goal is to beat the world record. And sure, some people will say, well, that world record will never be I don't know. I don't think there's many records in the world that are not beaten, right? Sure, there's ones that are.

Isn't Michael Phelps, isn't Michael Phelps, every one of Michael Phelps's records now have been broken. Isn't that? Yeah. Yeah. And so, but to, to, to, to your point there, Lawrence, I agree with you. I, me, what I came back to, to our kids with that reference was, you know what? It's not about what we do. It's about, if you can take anything out of it is that you deserve to be loved. You deserve to make, made to feel special. You deserve to have fulfillment and happiness.

are being broken right currently. think five of them have fallen, right?

whatever way that looks for you. And so to me, that was the message that we left. Not that there's this unsustainable romantic love that we've had for 35 years and we've never had challenges. No, not at all. It's like it's a work in progress every day and it has to be, particularly when there's kids involved and you're having your stretched in multiple different directions. But it's about at its core element and level is about saying there is someone who knows me, who loves me, who cares for me, who trusts me. And I deserve to be happy. it's a lot of the times that's what people bump up against is they either feel unlovable or there's someone that they can't open up to. Or like that to me is the impediment to the relationship rather than the unsustainable nature of a relationship in and of itself.

here's the challenge, right? Here's the rub is that the assumption is, yes, you're absolutely 100 % right that every single one of us deserves to be loved. The challenge I think is that most people are afraid to have a conversation to tell their significant other, their partner, how they want to be loved. And that's that communication part where, you know, we alluded to earlier because oftentimes it will work. if the assumption is that the other partner actually knows exactly how you wanna be loved. But that's a big assumption. That's a big ass assumption. I think that's really important because most of the time, right, they're not gonna know exactly how. You're a different, completely different human being. You could've been together for 20 -something years, but they might not know. And they know you well enough, but there's certain things. We all have these deep...

Yep. Yep. Yep.

sense of desires, of thoughts or feelings that we want from our partners. But yet, if you're not able to tell your partners, I'm not saying they will fulfill, they're not fulfill them. But if you can't tell that this is how I want to be loved or being treated, and you're too afraid to have that conversation, then you're going to end up by feeling like exactly what she sort of said is that they're not going to feel that love. They're not going to feel the security, that trust. But then what happens, even worse case, is that you expect it

Yeah. Yeah.

but you haven't told anybody. It's almost like if I expect the Jim to always praise me and say how great I am every single podcast, but I never told him, but I hold him to this standard, he's not gonna know. And I get frustrated every, it's more record and Jim doesn't say it, you know, I'm gonna get more more frustrated, but whose fault is that? It's not Jim's fault, he can't read my mind, right? He doesn't know that I need praise all the time and how great I am and how smart I am, right? If that's the standard, then all of sudden, and then all of a sudden I'm blow up and Jim's gonna go,

Yep. Yep.

Like, what happened here? What are you talking about?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. The whole the whole love languages process was very helpful for me to understand, too. perhaps we can share that for some for people because they may not have come across this before. And to me, that was a real big game changer, because if you can identify, you know, how how you communicate love and how you like to receive love, that can be a huge chess piece for some people. So do you want to do us to go through that? Lawrence?

Yeah, absolutely. There's a Favla, Gary Chapman wrote a book called The Five Love Languages. And I think it's such an important element to, and I always kind of refer that to, you know, when we discuss with clients around, you know, the love languages that you got to go through. basically, I think the premise, synopsis is that each human being has like a, usually a dominant. Now you can have a multiple of these love language, but usually we are dominant to,

There is Cherry Chapman's work here. The Five Levels, yep.

of the love languages that we love to use that to feel love. And so, and your partner may have the same or typically I found actually haven't really found two people that are like say married that actually have the same. They're usually different and surprisingly, and that's kind of, you know, that's fascinating to me. So there's five of them, let's identify them. So the five love languages are words of affirmation. So words of affirmation is sort of what we kind of talked about, like people They feel loved when they're honored, which means like, you know, Jim, you're an amazing, you're so great. What you did there was fantastic. know, like, you know, like, you know, thank you so much for, you know, doing that. So that's a word of affirmation, right? So they need praise. And we're not making this wrong. It's just like, that's how someone loves to be perceived. So I love for you to go through, when I go through these, think about yourself as you're listening to watching this to kind of see like, is that true for you? The second thing is quality Um, you know, for my wife is quality time quality time is for her is like, she, she wants me to spend quality time with her and it could just be sitting on a couch watching a movie. Like that's, know, that's what she wants. She wants to make sure we have some significant time with the, with our family and the kids and you know, and so that's, that's number two. Number three is physical touch. You know, that's, uh, that's more me. That guy, love the physical touch of, know, her just sort of giving me a hug, um, or just holding my hand or, know, tap on the shoulder or just like that's you know, that physical touch. I you know, that's what my love language is. The fourth one is active service. Active service is when you do something, something's been done for you. You know, so for example, if your wife, let's say your wife is an active service, the love language and like making the bed, being her flowers, you know, washing the dishes without you know, telling her taking out the garbage, cleaning up a room, cleaning up the garage or like things like that. Like that would be the act of service that they who will feel loved and honored because they feel seen. And last is receiving gifts. And there's people who are just love sort of, you know, being endowed with gifts and jewelry or whatever it actually is. So those are the five love languages. The challenges with love languages though, however, and I'm sure you'll agree with me on this is that we all have a dominant one. So let's just say my physical touch, my wife is quality time. And so, but however, you got to remember because it's dominant for you, that's what you crave. you actually have a filter to think that everyone else sees the same way. So, you for me touching my wife or giving her a hug, that's an assumption I'm making, which is totally wrong, which is always wrong, right? That's what she would want, how she wants to be loved. And it takes a lot of work on my part to focus on the quality of time, because that's not my love language. So therefore I don't focus not my weakness, but it's not my dominant. So therefore I have to try extra hard to focus in and put that attention in. So therefore, this is why relationship is hard because you actually have to do the thing that you're not naturally gifted at or naturally do because that's not what you crave. And then it requires both of them to do it

Yep. Yeah. And Lawrence, think that for me was a real big game changer when I became aware of that, because mine for for for declaration is words of affirmation. And it's very interesting that. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate it. I'll give you a hug if I could. we're in different countries and so you'd feel great about yourself. So this kind of have to give you a virtual one. But but but interestingly. In the psychology of sport.

You're awesome, man. Just

Right. Um, I've worked out that when I could shut down, I could shut my brain, my mind off to criticism from people who don't really have given the, my heart to, and I'm untouchable. Nothing you can say can throw me the moment my heart's open. Then it's really important. Right. So that to me is my default. And so I would constantly be doing the same thing for my kids. And therefore got everybody's got different love language. And so I'm telling my kids, they're great. They're also on top of Tina. But Tina's one is gifts and not doesn't have to be leverages. It could be a flower. It could be something. It could be something that showed that I thought of her. I went and did something. I got her something. It could be, you know, hey, this is it. And I'd say, but I told you I love you so much. She goes, yeah, show me. Don't tell me. And it was that disconnect to go, oh, man. And suddenly you go, I've been ignoring you thinking that I'm doing one thing, but I'm missing And then I think back to the courting stage and I just go, I was telling you, I was physical touch, were spending time together, I was giving you flowers, was doing them all, was shotgunning them. And then over time, what happens, you gradually default to your natural one, you start not hitting the mark for your partner and suddenly you start growing distance and you think, the magic isn't there, no it's not, it's just that you got comfortable with your own love language and didn't keep nurturing what your partner's one was.

Yep. Yeah, and it's like gardening, right? You gotta keep on taking out the weeds and you gotta keep on watering and give a nutrient to a relationship. And that's the thing, to keep a long -term relationship, that's hard work. And the reason why it's hard work, because it's every single day. And sure, I'll 100 % focus on giving you know attention and love every single day I've definitely missed days and this is where I you know I definitely get into trouble and this is where I constantly I'm also evaluating the you know I'll be truly honest because I'm Karen's not gonna listen this podcast so but you know I look at the week you know I know I care about my paddle games and you know I want to make sure I pay paddle but I also go you know what like I can't play paddle on that day because you know I that's too many days in a row and if I know if I do I will probably get the fun, but I also get, you know, the, uh, the, the, I, you know, the stair, like, what are you doing? And, uh, and, and so I kind of worked that out, right? If I, and I used to happen a lot when I used to travel a lot, I used to go think, okay, all right, I gotta, you know, as I say, I'm leaving on a Sunday. Then I would, you know, Noah went going away for a week. I'm like, okay, I better take off Friday and Saturdays because I got to make sure that quality time is there. And I canceled all these things. So she doesn't see all that, right? I'm canceling all these meetings and stuff just to make sure she spent.

Yeah. Yeah.

you she has, you know, she gets that quality of time because she knows, I know if I don't do that, if I work all the way up to Saturday, I'm like, okay, sorry, babe, I got to, you know, sorry, busy, go, and I'm going to be in so much trouble. And this is the whole thing about making mergers work. It's just like, there's credit and what do call it? Debits, I guess, right? So, you know, we draw us into credit. Yeah, we're draws in deposits, right? Perfect. And so I think it's important to make sure you're always in the plus, always in the black and not in the red.

Good to go. Yep. Withdrawals and deposits.

And you know, there's certain times that you can take some withdrawals and once in a while, but you always got to make sure there's a reserve that you're above that reserve at all times. And you kind of got to keep on keep on debiting, you know, your your credits up there because that that is what if you create enough debit, you can then take some withdrawal. the withdrawals are are not enough. That's going to go into the reserves. And I think that's super important. It's the same thing here is what we're talking about using love languages as a measuring stick and how to do

Lawrence, I want to share this story with you because it highlights this and to a T. So my beautiful bride loves Andrea Bocelli. Loves Andrea Bocelli, right? So for her birthday this year, I bought tickets to Andrea Bocelli and I bought it like six months earlier. And I was like, I was so excited. I was so happy.

Wow.

And it was actually right on her birthday. So was really, so the day after her birthday. And as it turned out, I disclosed in a recent recording that Bettina has been successful in being, leading the program, the Chiropractic College in Scotland. So we're moving to Edinburgh and I'm in Airbnb right now as we wait our visa. So the day that, you know, in the lead up to it, Bettina had to fly to Edinburgh for a day for an interview. And guess what day she had to fly? to Edinburgh the day of the concert and then she had the interview the next day. So here I was super excited thinking this gift is going to knock it out of the park. This is going to be great. This is wonderful. I was so excited. I was like a little kid on a Christmas morning going, this is really cool. Then I got the date that the interview was going and I was devastated because I couldn't get credits for this.

No.

at all. And I was like, man, I've just outdone myself here. I was so super excited and the disappoint. I felt more disappointed. And yet what Bettina took more out of that. Yes, she would have loved to do that, but she got so much out of the fact that I went to the effort of planning something, getting it, even if it didn't come through, I still got credits for the effort that I went into it, but that was a near miss. And I, I'm disappointed in there, but it just highlights that for me, was the disappointment was not in not going. The disappointment was I couldn't, um, deliver something, the P the gift. And that would have been just magical because it would have been something magical for her.

deliver the final piece of the gift. Yeah, and imagine like she got a bit of blend of like receiving gifts and also acts of service as probably her secondary I'm not sure if that's true or not, but

Yeah, like, yeah, there's an element of that. Like I think we have an all element of that, but it's active service, you know, like the blend, but I think that's the primary one. She just loves feeling special because it's just so any time like, you know, if there was a, if you had a present and it was Christmas morning and you were tempted to open it early, she got no, there's a ceremony around that. She just loves the process of unwrapping the, the, the wonder, the excitement, the unknown. She loves that.

Of course, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and

And I've learnt that I have to make a ceremony and a song and dance about that because that is really important to

Hmm. Well, I think there's right there. I don't know if you're watching this or listening to this. And if you're watching this, you know, just rewind back like three minutes and you can really see what makes a really marriage work. And you can see it, but because you saw when Jim tells a story and even if you're listening to this, you hear it. You can hear his voice change slightly. There's that little bit of giddiness, that little boy like energy about him and when he told the story and how excited he was getting these tickets. And I admire that because that just showed, like I can see it in your eyes and there's smile on your face and you can hear in your voice, but like that is what makes great marriages last and long work because you got excited about something that's not even in your love language, but is actually in her love language, right? And doing something for her got you excited. And the reason I'm highlighting that is because that is really challenging for most people. because we're not used to that. As I mentioned, like we're used to being the dominant of what we aspire for, like what we want. We don't tend to go the extra, not that we don't go the extra mile, but we don't think outside of our own sphere and viewpoint. But for you to have done that, for you to be able to be excited about doing something for her in her love language. that just goes to show that you have true intention, your intention, and not just true intention, but the effort you were willing to put in to do that. And that got you excited. You trained your brain to be wired to be happy when she is happy. And like that, subtle, man. It's so subtle, but I'm pointing it out to you because the thing is, I'm not pointing you, but to the audience, that we were just talking about what make marriage work. That is what, it's the effort you put in. But it's not just the effort, but it's almost It was effortless for you in a way. Effort, yes, you had to make it happen, but it was effortless because you actually wanted to do it, right? It's a way harder effort to do it when it's like, I don't wanna do it, but I'm gonna have to do it anyway. It starts there though, it starts there, right? And over time, you have to train your brain to like, this is actually for the betterment of them, and I wanna make this as fun as possible. Might as well make this fun as for me as possible to do this, because otherwise I create resentment. And that's never a success, and that's why I wanna highlight

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, good point. Good point. So you mentioned earlier on about communication, Lawrence, let's deep dive into that a little bit more too, because I think that that is an important pillar. So communication we've established is important in a relationship. But then sometimes what happens is that is lost or the ability to communicate freely, comfortably, honestly, authentically is lost. Why do we, why do we think that happens?

think it happens because we we get stuck in a routine. And, know, and life gets busy. And I know that this happens a lot around probably two stages of our life, which is one is probably work, where, know, you're starting a new job or starting a new, you know, work environment, and you just trying to like, put your attention into a new business or whatever, and you get into this rhythm and you find your rhythm, but you've you had to sacrifice your relationship for the for for the business or for the job or the career, which is, you know, which is normal, but it was only supposed to be temporary. But that temporary became permanent. And we forgotten about that. That was supposed to be temporary. I think the second area I would find would say is with kids. You know, when you have kids like you're so focused on just like trying to get sleep and trying to get a rhythm, try to make this work. And, you know, and this last, this doesn't last a month or two months, last years, you know, especially in the first few years, it's rough and it's not, you know, as one thing kind of settles, another thing pops up. And then another thing pops up. So as we go through the stages, know, six months and then now becomes a one year old baby. And then it becomes the two year old toddler. then, you know, there's always something. And I think we kind of get into that rhythm and forgot, Hey, wait a second. We are, we are husband and wife first, before we were parents. And I think we often forget that. And, you know, and we often drop that too. We just become like full -time parent, but we've forgotten that, you know, this, or husband and wife to first. I think if we don't, so I think that's why we lose that communication over time. But the problem is, is that it's over years and it gets to this point. when, when things do finally calm down, it might be five years, 10 years, 15 years down the road and you realize, how do I get here? I'm not happy. And then, but now because of lack of communication on five years, it's almost like it's too scary. to have that conversation. Too scary to go, you know, I made a mistake or you made a mistake and I'm not happy with you. And now you start, then you start self reflecting and you, you're getting older now, you know, you're 30 or 40 years old and you start thinking about life and you're like, oh, something's amiss. And I think that's where, that's why I think that's where it stems from.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think what happens is that particularly when there are kids involved, you can be channeling a lot of your time into being a parent, know, taking from here, there and you're really busy and it's almost distracted. And you can channel that energy towards just doing and taking kids everywhere and not nurturing what is really important in the relationship. So I totally agree with you because So quite often people, you know, the empty nesters end up having kids suddenly go where they had a whole validation and a whole significance in kids are suddenly gone. They don't need mom and dad in the same way anymore. And suddenly they're left behind and go, who is this person that I'm with that I don't really know? Because you haven't been cultivating that relationship. And I think what was really important for us is that we always, always, always found time to do that. Even if it was a coffee, you know, we'd go and have a cup of coffee together or just have a quiet time or if the kids were playing sport and wherever we'd duck off and have a cup of coffee at a cafe just us for 20 minutes and all we'd have a structured meeting that we had to. So we allocated that and made it a priority. We always found a way, even if we had to get a babysitter and go listen, two hours we just need, we always did that. And I think that was really helpful because it's prioritized. The main thing was the main thing that was like we were the engine room of the And if we were solid, that then allowed us to be solid in all other areas as it filter outwards. If we were rocky or unstable or things weren't resolute and strong with us, then that influenced everything else. And so a lot of the times, the one thing that makes everything else work okay for us was making sure that we as a unit were strong and

Yeah. And I think that, you know, to, to, to really kind of end this with some sort of, um, tactical action, I think if you're, if you're in a situation in a relationship where things are not going as smoothly as you hoped and, or you want to, you know, you things are going okay and going well either way you want to make this better. I think my encouragement to you is having regular deep conversations that are challenging. Like I think without that communication and being able to feel like you can trust to have that conversation. It's very difficult to maintain a strong relationship over time. Now, you know, for some of you who might be, who are in a rocky period of time, I would imagine the first thing is that I can't do that. And, and I would say, yeah, like I get it's hard. It's really rocky. It's, very difficult. You haven't had that conversation for a long time, but the challenge is like, what's on the flip side though? You know, and like, know you're afraid, but the reality is that, you the only other alternative is that this won't last. So you either have to step in and be vulnerable enough or would be able to step into this, this void and trust that something good is gonna come out of it, at least moving forward, or the alternative is just slowly, the relationship will just slowly wither away. And I don't think that's a great alternative. And you have to come to an inflection point to decide that there has to be a choice. and that choice is up to you. And if you're waiting for someone else to step in, because that's easier, I don't know that's going to happen. So someone's got to lead. And my question to you is why not you? And really, what are you afraid of? Because on the other side, the outcome is going to be exactly the same anyways. Because what you're afraid of is that the relationship's going to end. Well, I'm telling you, if you don't step in, your relationship is going to end anyways. Then the only choice out of it is usually that you step in and have the courage to actually do something about it that might actually have a chance.

Yeah. Yeah. A great coach of mine, one of my first coaches said to me that in life we go through stages of either contraction or expansion. And most of the problems in life occur when we are in a contracted state. And because we're thinking about survival and preservation and wound and all those kind of things. And the most counterintuitive thing at that time is to expand, is to expand and to open up, to live in love, not hate, expand and get out of your comfort zone to make that step to be for all those kinds of things. And so it was a really good tool and a reminder that in order to create change, something there has to be a level of expansions either either in your capacity or in your willingness to engage in the things that you may not have wanted to, which is what I guess you alluded to either conversations or, or something that will shift it because otherwise you're, you're trapped in the constant. contraction of that state and that's not a fulfilling process in there. And I think that, you know, ultimate motivation in making it work is because I came from a family unit that probably wasn't as loving as I would hope our kids see that Batera and I have. And so that to me was a real catalyst to go, I want to improve on this. I want to know that, you know, our kids see us and know that we we love each other after all this time rather than just hanging around together just because we made a decision 35 years ago. So to me that was really important and I wanted to model what that could look like for them as

Yeah. And like I said, at the beginning of this podcast, you know, while we saw the art of imperfection, marriage is full of that. You know, our relationship is full of imperfection. It's about how you navigate through it. And this is why we decided to pick this topic. And, know, again, this, uh, the things we talked about today is, know, our opinions and what we made from our experiences, I guess, to what makes it work. I love to hear kind of, you know, do you agree or disagree? What would you add to, what would you add to that makes a great relationship work? Tell us, uh, we'll love to listen. And, uh, until next time, until the next podcast, Jim. Hope that you are moving closer and closer to moving up north into the rain and cold. And maybe we'll see you next time in that environment. We'll talk soon. Take care.