Turning Pro

Welcome to Wabi Sabi podcast about the art of imperfection. We got a doozy today. We got a really, really great topic. I really feel it's one of my favorite topics. Because I talk a lot about it. I got inspired by this topic simply because I read this book and I read this book by Steven Press, Pressfield called turning pro and it's funny enough Jim recommended that goes Hey, should we do a topic on podcast topic on turning pro I'm like, hell yes. Let's do this because this is something.

Yeah.

that it's up my alley. NOISE So Jim, why did you choose this topic? I think there's an interesting origin story behind that.

It is because same thing. I've loved saying press fields books as well too. And there was an element of my world probably in the last month or so where I was creating a little bit of stress and I couldn't work out how and why that was the case. NOISE So, you know, quite often when I first started coaching being a coach, I remember our coaching, the instructors for our certification said the biggest coach job you will ever do is on yourself. So I went, okay, great. And I went looking for a reason and turning pro was a book that I've read many times in the past. It's not a difficult read, but it was calling me and I read it and I found the answer to it. And the reason was for me, there were elements of my world where I wasn't stepping up and being a pro. I was showing up as an amateur. Now that's a really tough thing to admit to yourself, but that was the genesis of it. And just when I said to you before you go, Hey, that's really interesting. Cause I've been reading. And you can probably complete the rest of the story now, Lawrence. NOISE

Yeah, I was reading the War of Art, which is Steven Pressfield's book as well. And the War of Art is, it's, well, it's an initiative book and we can talk about that a little bit in a second. But in the War of Art, there is a chapter called Turning Pro. And I think so many people resonated with that chapter. Steven Pressfield decided to write another book, a book on its own called Turning Pro. And I actually read Turning Pro before I read the War of Art. And I, you know, I really love it. So maybe, Jim, can we describe to the listeners maybe, and the viewers, what is the key concept? Like that's just the overall view concept of Turning Pro and we can dive into all the components.

Yep. Yeah, right. So it's interesting when I started reading turning pro for the first first time, it was like I was reading it and reading it. And then there was this pause. I flicked the page. I was like a slap, slap to the side of the head. And it was really about the distinction between being amateur and not so much an amateur in terms of your sport or whatever, but it's how you showed up, what expectations you had of yourself, what kind of mindset and your identity. And so to me, It was very confronting the first time I looked at that when I went, NOISE okay, so the areas that I feel like I'm going well in life in, if I can trace that back to how I'm showing up, I could see definite patterns that I would go, yep, that's how a professional would approach this. And the areas of my life and world that were creating, I should say, stress or areas and results that weren't the levels that I wanted, I looked at it and traced it back to the fact that I was approaching it as an amateur. So the key for me was having an awareness around it and then stepping up into the areas of my life and world as a professional. NOISE And Steven Pressfield always talks about it when he says, you have two phases in your life. The day that you are basically an amateur and the day you shift as a professional and you'll remember that moment clearly. And it's true. And it's true. And over time, I think I'd noticed a little bit of slippage in a couple of areas. And so I needed to just elevate again.

Hmm. You know, so as you're saying it is, you know, for those who have never read it, I think it's, I really encourage you. It is a very short read. Uh, and chapters are very short. And so it was really punchy. You can easy. It's a, you can definitely, you know, read it very, very quickly. I've read it several times. Uh, I go back to it every so often. It's one of those books I like to revisit once in a while, cause it just kind of gives you that reminder. And the reminder is, you know, it's important because I think it's around a mindset, right? The, there's a difference between an amateur mindset versus a, uh, a pro professional approach. And that's really, really is all about. NOISE And you know, the it's all starts with the mindset because once you have the mindset corrected and you shift it all of a sudden, the actions and behaviors that you take changes. Right. Because as an amateur, you know, like sporting, you know, it sounds like it's a sport when you talk about amateur and pro and it is, but in a sense, but you take the key concepts of that as a sporting amateur, what do you do? Like if you go on a bad losing streak, you know, you start losing fights or you started going to, you know, striking out and, uh, or you can't, you can't hit a basket for the life of you. you know, as an amateur, it's like, oh, well, whatever, right? It's, you know, you just take the hits and you just kind of move on because you got other things to do because you're an amateur, it's not something that you are paid to do. But there's a moment like what Jim said here is that when you become a professional, you get paid to do this. This is what you know, and when we say paid, you don't necessarily have to be paid. But it's like, this is the mindset, this is you become a professional, this is what you dedicate your life towards. And all of a sudden now, you are, you got to be professional about it. So even all professionals will have their you know, losing streaks, they'll have to lose their fights. They can't hit the basket for the life of them. All these things will happen. But what do you do? Professional, the difference is the professional will keep showing up. And that is the mindset. And that's the approach is because you have to show up because that's what you get paid to do. And, uh, and that's the mindset that we need to have. And we need to kind of talk about that.

Yeah. And when you, what I really resonate with this is, you know, whether it's sport, whether it's in business, you know, you can trace it down to your mindset in terms of how you show up, your preparation, your practices, your drilling, NOISE the things that you have exercised to the point where now you're not, you're not trying to rise up to the preparation, to the occasion you've, you've defaulting to your liberal preparation. So you've done this so many times, you know, that you know, that you know that you can do this. Then you're in it in terms of how you show up and how you relate, whether it's in a sport, whether it's in sport, even as a parent, you know, same sort of thing. And then afterwards it's what recollections a professional will look at an event and go, what can I learn from this? Or how do I recover from this to optimize my performance moving forward? So to me, NOISE it's a mindset, definitely. It's how you choose to show up and that's your skills and practices that are refined. so that you show up as the best version of yourself, whatever that may be.

most impressive talks a lot about this one key concept, you can't really talk about turning pro without understanding this concept, which he terms the resistance. Seth Godin calls it the lizard brain, I call it the dragon. And they're all mean the same thing is just like this resistance of this reptilian part of us that prevents us from reaching our potential. And it's basically, you know, that the resistance is really like fear, NOISE self doubt, lack of confidence, procrastination. They basically manifest on everyday basis. I don't think any of us can actually escape without having one of those few things that happen on a regular basis. And so that resistance always with us. And so he talks about that. So how does that relate to you, Jim? Like, can you talk maybe through some of your relationship with the resistance? How do you deal with that resistance? Or how what do you think about the resistance?

Look, that's a great point because you're right. You underlied the concept of that resistance. And a lot of it is our primal brain trying to keep us safe. NOISE Right. So we're trying to overcome basically a function in our prehistoric brain that is trying to say, this is dangerous. This is safe. Don't do this. Don't confront. Don't challenge the norm because this is potentially dangerous. And.

Mm -hmm.

The brain doesn't know the difference between perceived and real danger. So anything that it imagines is scary, is going to run the movie for you that this is potentially life threatening. So your body naturally will try to keep you away from that. So it's, I always heard, and this made sense to me is successful people and courageous people, it's not that they don't feel fear. It's actually they feel fear and act in spite of that feeling. So they're not. stopped by or paralyzed by it, they act in spite of it. And that to me is the big distinction.

And that's the that's the definition of professional right being a professional switching from amateur to professional is that your ability to be able to step into the fear despite you feeling it. You know, this resistance always there like we said, and I call it the dragon because it's like a dragon like a video game where dragon constantly there to to kill you. And every day you got to pull out your sword and freaking kill that dragon every single day. But sometimes the freaking dragon wins. NOISE Right. And so and but the beautiful part like a video game is you get to live another day. Right? Most of us. You get to have another day and you have another go. So the really every day you're sharpening your sword, you get better tactic. And I heard something today, which is kind of interesting. It's like, can you imagine like going to a video game and just imagine you're playing a video game. This dragon's like there and you use the same move, same tactic to try to kill this dragon and you never win and it's always losing. You gotta change tactic. NOISE You can't go into the same thing. You have to change something. Otherwise the dragon's always gonna beat you because you know, video game is quite predictable in a sense. They have certain patterns. you got to recognize that pattern and how to defeat it. And so resistance, the same thing if you're procrastinating all the time, if you say, I want to lose weight, I want to do x, I've always want to focus on my health, I want to meditate, I want to do this, all of these things are there. But what happens is our resistance, you know, or resistance, like, Oh, we don't have time for that. I'm too busy. NOISE Or, you know, I don't know if I have a brain to learn a new language, or maybe I'm just too.

Thank you.

dumb or maybe I don't know if I have the time and you create that's the in resistance. I hear that every single day. I'm hearing it right now. All the things that I'm not doing. Right. And it's like, are you willing to put in the effort to be have a professional mindset to go? No, I'm going to do this no matter what. I'm going to pursue this no matter what. And that's a really, really challenging thing to do because the resistance is strong. And most likely you've developed that resistance since you were a little kid. And no one's really taught us how

Thank you.

to fight against that resistance. I never taught, I don't know of you, but you, you're like, no one ever taught me how to do that. Now, certainly, maybe if you've done a bit of martial arts, you know, maybe in, you know, which you have, and maybe if you've done a little bit of sport activities and sporting activities and teams, you might have been able to teach yourself or figure out that you have to fight through some of those resistance. But even then, we cannot help as human beings to be able to be stopped by the resistance of self -doubt and fear and all the things that comes along with that. and I think is really difficult and hence that's why it's so hard for any of us to push back that boundary. And so I'm happy to share some of my techniques of what I think is important and how I did it. But what are some of the things that you've done to fight that resistance?

Yeah, man. Well, it's funny you say about martial arts because I do when you say that that way I can relate that back to the lessons that I learned in the dojo as a young kid are ones that I have used with great success. NOISE So, you know, I had a really emotionally intelligent sensei for one of my first one who was, who was really must've been a life coach at some in some previous capacity or was able to apply the principles that you would learn. in a dojo to other areas of life because he would, he was very much like Mr. Miyagi, you know, like from karate kid, he'd actually say, no, it's normal to feel scared. That's okay. I feel scared too. But if you just stay where you are and let that feeling pass, you can then act with power. NOISE So, and, and that were the principles. And the other one was always the seven seconds of courage. If you can. cycle through the fear, the doubt, uncertainty, all the things that you talked about, all the resistance and take that first step into it and lean into it rather than walk away from it. That changes the whole trajectory. And I can now trace a lot of the things is I'm a very rapid initiator. So if I find something that I really want to do and I'm terrified, I will make that first step. And I'm scared, right? However, I've learned to train myself to go, yeah, but the moment you do that, the second step is gonna be so much easier. And it's true, it really does get easier. So I don't know often where that first step will lead me. I really don't. If I have a general direction where I wanna go, NOISE but if everybody has a superpower, to me, that would be the first one. That would be the courage to take that first step, even though I probably am scared and terrified as much as anybody else.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I see that in my daughter a lot. You know, she basically just does it anyways. And she doesn't, not that she has no fear, but she knows that there's fear, but she'll give it a shot, give it things a go. And sometimes certain people have that personality. But I can hear it. Some people like, I'm not like that. And there's a saying that I heard and I wish I can attribute to the right person. I'm not sure who said this, but I use it a lot because it's very powerful, which is implement faster than your disbelief. And that's exactly what you're talking about, right? Because you can implement faster when your disbelief starts popping up, but you already done it. Like it's like, you're just, and that's a, that's a, that's a mindset you need to train, right? If the faster you implement, you faster, your disbelief is going to be dissipated because you don't have even have time to think about all the things that are going to go wrong. But if you're a person who, especially for a person who's overthinking things, and you always have like analysis paralysis, you know, decision fatigue, if you're that type of person, sometimes it's just, Don't have to worry about the big stuff. I'm not asking you to do the big stuff. Just use the small stuff, right? Make a decision on small little things or inconsequential things. Like, what am I gonna have for dessert? What am I gonna have for dinner? Like, choose something on the menu you don't know. Just like, close your eyes and point whatever things that point out. Whatever the first thing you point out, have that. What do you got to lose? Is you're basically, what you're doing is you're gaining. What you're gonna lose is that you might not enjoy that meal. But what you gain from that is you're teaching your body is like, so what?

Yeah.

So what? It doesn't matter, because that's what a professional does. Sure, sometimes your meal sucks, but you're not dying, right? You're not dying, so everything's gonna be okay. And I think so, I love the fact that you're saying that, you know, you just go in action. Like my other thing about, you know, how to overcome resistance sometimes is you gotta challenge it big time. Sometimes you gotta go do big things, scary things, jumping out of a plane, go do a bungee jump. NOISE You know, I...

Yeah. down.

done those crazy things, not because it's crazy, but because I wanted to teach my brain that you're not going to be in control of me. Like my body's not going to control me. My fear and motion is not going to control me. I want to control this. Right? Yes, I feel you. I hear you. I hear you loud and clear. It's like, don't do this. Don't jump. I hear you. But I'm going to do it anyways, because I'm going to prove to you, right, but you're not in control. That's really hard. And sometimes I need to remind myself by doing things like that. I I remember jumping off the New Zealand sky tower. Actually, when I remember going up to the CN tower, one of the tallest buildings in the world and walked along the edge at the top on the outside. You know, things like that is just a reminder that I'm in control. Bungee jump, skydive, all of those things are crazy things to most people. But man, the thrill, the excitement, NOISE the person you become through that journey, it changes. It just, it does shift you and allows you to do more.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's what a professional mindset does. A pro is you're willing to put yourself in those situation despite the resistance.

Yeah. And it's not, there's a big distinction. It's just because you're pro doesn't mean that you're guaranteed of success. What you're actually doing is you're giving yourself the best opportunity to succeed because you have mitigated the risks. You've taken all necessary steps to prepare optimally up until that performance. And you're right. Like I haven't jumped out of a plane. Uh, Lawrence, I've done so many fireworks. NOISE I've done the arrow breaks with the arrow to the throat. I've had swords in my throat where you lean into it.

Mm -hmm.

And what it does to you, something happens to you where you look at that challenge ahead of you and you're terrified and you're going, this is crazy, this is dangerous, I could die, doesn't make sense. But the moment on the other end of it, you finish it and you go, wow, I did that. I didn't think I was gonna be able to do it. What else do I think is impossible that now I can look at differently by virtue of this experience that I've just had? And that to me is that subcategory of being a pro is the. to lean into your fears and know that it will terrify you. However, you will be better for the experience of leaning into that overcoming.

What the reality is, is that all of the resistance is is that you got to constantly remind and prove to yourself that the resistance is irrational. Okay, so let's think about a bungee jump, for example. Okay, a bungee jump. NOISE Or I remember thinking this I was at the actual CN tower, I was at the CN tower, which is tall, one of the tallest building in the world. You get to walk outside. Okay. The only thing holding you to this thing is this. cord attached to the back of your jacket attached to the top. That's it. Now, you would think, right, the rational mind goes, okay, well, listen, there's got to be some safety here, right? It is Canada, right? It's, you know, it's not like a third world country here. They must have done multiple checks to make sure this is safe. And I'm tethered. I can't fall off, even if I tried. And there's guards and, you know, there's, there's, you know, sort of, you know, workers in there to ensure my safety and ensure they've been tested. So like your rational brain says 99 .99%, this is going to be very safe. Right? Sure, there's going to be that point one's point zero zero 1 % that you know, something could go wrong. But you're pretty sure that's gonna be safe. But that's the difference. But doesn't negate the fact that I was scared out of my mind, right? Looking down, walking on this small little plank, and nothing but air underneath me. Of course, because that's the rational brain, the rational rational brain, even despite showing and demonstrating that you are perfectly safe, the rational mind will always take over. And that's how powerful the resistance is. The resistance is so powerful that despite you knowing, this is everything's gonna be absolutely safe and everything's gonna be good. But the fear, the irrational fear and the emotions will override any of that. And that's what the professional does. The professional versus the amateur will let that emotion ride you and take control where the professional goes, no, I'm in control of the situation. I know it's irrational. I know the rational fear is there, but I'm gonna do this anyway.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, loads, uh, for everybody who's watching this visually, and we've referenced it over time, several, several times, I should say over my right shoulder, I've got a print that shows a guy jumping between two rock faces. And the theme is take the risk. And to me, that's a daily reminder of stepping into that. So maybe you asked me what I do. I've got an anchor for that too, to model it for me. But even in that example, that person would not have just.

Hmm.

Oh, well, sounds like a good idea. Let's give it a go. They would have prepared for that. And to me, it's a great analogy to say, you know what, even as far as you prepare, you could do everything you can on this side of risk. You can do everything you can on the other side of the risk. But at some point, there's a gap. There's a chasm. You have to make a decision to jump, to lean in, to do that. You can prepare for all of it. However, there's always still the risk and the fear that you have to jump or lean into, no matter what. What we're not talking about is the fear and the jump. What we're talking about is everything on either side of it is and governs whether you are approaching that challenge as a professional, as an amateur.

Hmm. You know, that's, that brings up another good point, which is, you know, most amateur will take unnecessary risk, right? For pro, you, from the outside looking in, you think they're crazy. They're taking so much risk. Like think about any red bull athlete, right? They just go like, they're nuts, but they're a professional. It's not like they just decided to go on a, you know, a suit, a bat suit or whatever those suits are called. and just base jumping suit and just go, ah, let's give this a shot. No, they're not gonna serve the biggest waves here in Nazaré in, you know, Portugal, which is because I'm like, oh, I know how to surf. I'm just gonna give that a go. No, they're professional, which means they've done the calculated risk to ensure that they're putting themselves in this position to succeed, right? It doesn't mean they're gonna succeed, but they know that with some certainty that there's a risk there, but the risk is usually quite minimal because then there's a gray chart and chart. NOISE Steven Kotler, I think he's the one that came up with this. NOISE

the super super super humans. NOISE Yeah. Yeah.

superhuman or super, yeah. And they talked about like this graph. And he said, most people who take these extreme sports, they study extreme sports, you know, these extreme athletes. And what they demonstrated is that they don't take actually massive risk. NOISE There's a risk curve. And the risk curve is that there's this curve, right, this line, and anything below the line, which is where the risk is very low, and they have really high skill, right? So if you're to say you are, actually, let's just say you come to my beginner class in jujitsu, okay? You're gonna, and we go, you and I, let's go at it. Like to you, you're high skill, because you've done it for years, so the skill level is very low, but you got high skill, all of a sudden now, if you continue doing that, if you continue coming to my class, guess what? It's boredom for you, right? But on the other side, where if you had low skill, comparatively to the, the task at hand, NOISE which requires high skill, but you don't actually have the skill, then all of a sudden, that risk is high and your skill is low, it's overwhelmed and you panic. And so what the extreme sports do is that they don't go above or they don't go below because boredom doesn't help you improve, but overwhelm actually will shut you down. What you need to do is stay about, I think, 4 % is what they do.

Yep. Yep. Yeah, just, yeah, yeah.

Just 4%, just 4 % above that line, which means 4 % is not a lot, but it's enough where there's enough fear of like, I may not, I probably, I may not get there. I may not succeed, but it's small enough that you can learn from it even if you don't. And if you do, you learn something. And then they learn 4 % and then they learn another 4%, another 4%. That's how those snowboarders can go up that high. That's how those surfers can surf those big waves. is because over time they're challenging themselves a little bit by little bit. But we never see the 10 years of professional life of them getting there. What we see is them dropping into a surf for the very first time and you go, oh wow, that's amazing. And that's that journey.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, NOISE the, that, that's, he, same kind of also the guy who talks about flow state and how you stay in flow is by matching. Like you said, exactly. If the task is too big, you become overwhelmed. You shut down. Whereas if it's just a little bit more than your skillset and you've got to bring all of yourself to that game, you find that magical zone that helps you keep in flow and perform optimally, which is, which is, which is great. And you're right about the risk and reward because.

Yes.

They talk a lot about a lot of high level investors, for example, talk about asymmetrical risk and return, meaning that they're not interested in kicking the lights out, but taking unnecessary risk. What they're interested in is how can we exploit and find an opportunity that for the little, little, little list amount of risk, give us the maximum amount of return. If it doesn't fit within a parameter or profile of what we're looking for. We don't go, even if it's exciting. So we're not seduced by the potential upside if it means that the risk ratio is too high. So to me, that's a professional. You know, they're not, you know, Warren Buffett always say, it's not about going to a casino. You could win or lose. That's, that's an asymmetric, that's not an asymmetrical risk profile. What he always talked about was lowering the risks down to a point where he can walk over it rather than having to take a run up to jump. That's a professional.

Mmm. Yeah.

And Amritsar would go, look, I backed myself. Let's see how it goes. It could lose or it could work or not. That's not what we're talking about as a pro. You know, there's a preparation that governs a lot of that. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a journey and a preparation to it. So let me, let's talk about that journey. Like, what do you think the journey of the transformation requires? Uh, some, sorry, what would, what would someone need to require to do from an amateur to transition and transform into a professional or have adopted at least the professional mindset.

Okay. Yeah. I always like intersecting and overlying three frames over pretty much everything to that makes sense for me. Cause I always look at it and go the mindset, motivation and method is always the three frames. So I would break that down into a category that, you know, we can talk about specifically, but first of all, the mindset part of it is, NOISE you know, who, what's the, what's the approach of a, of a, of a professional and whether it's your work, whether it's the way you approach a relationship. whether it's your health, whether it's whatever it is, your sport, but there's a particular mindset that will govern how an amateur shows up and how a professional. The motivation then is also the next category. It's the same sort of thing. You look at the motivations, the compelling reasons why, how you can extract the best out of yourself in there and how you can link it up to what helps you perform better. And then the third category are the sub, NOISE sort of the specialties of the methodology. So they're the how -tos. What do I do? How do I extract performance, et cetera, et cetera. So I know I've given it a very broad frame. You might feel like you want to jump in and expand on any one of those, but to me, it makes more sense to create the frame first and then we can talk specifically and people can see the categories that will work.

Yeah, so let's start with that. I think around the server, the mindset one, right? So I think there's, you know, I'll add to it and you can, you know, kind of kind of complete my sentences here. But I think like there's a psychological and emotional challenge or change that has to happen in the mindset, right? The emotional, we kind of talked about that, like you got to be emotionally invested, which is probably leads into the motivation as well. You got to be emotionally going to be be ready, psychologically and emotionally be ready to face the resistance, right? Because it is a challenge. And You know, the, the, the differences between like an amateur and a pro is that the pro psychologically and emotionally, you got to be able to handle withstand some of the embarrassment, um, the, the, the, the resistance itself, but also in the embarrassment of you losing and failing and trying something new. Uh, I don't know if you ever learned a new sport or a new thing. Like, you know, I remember, uh, you know, I, you know, so say like for paddle, for example, you know, to take a paddle lesson, you go to a instructor and they change everything about it. Change your grip, you change your stance and. You know, what's the easiest tendency is to go right back to how you've been playing, but you're not improving. So therefore he changes your stance and you're in your grip and you're in your racket and everything else. And all of a sudden he's like, but I feel so dumb. You feel like I'm just like riding a bicycle can or stamp or starting to walk again. I just feel like I'm making mistakes, but you got to be able to psychologically and emotionally be able to handle going from where you were to go right back to the bottom and then slowly calm your way up. And hopefully that.

Mmm.

on the way up that you can actually surpass where you were. But you gotta be able to willing to go back right back to the bottom to do that.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and most people can't emotionally, psychologically go through that journey of self -discovery and doubt and being the beginner again. I think the big distinction Carol Dweck's work is probably a good explanation. There's a distinction between a fixed and a growth mindset. So to me, NOISE underpinning everything is a mindset, a growth mindset, which says that it's not... you're good, you're bad. It's like excellence. It's focusing on how do I keep improving? How do I keep extracting and adopting a mindset or a growth mindset really is a distinction between an amateur and a professional.

Yeah. And when you talk about motivation, there's such an important element to kind of look at the internal drivers of why you want to change, right? Because it comes from inside, not inside out rather than outside it. So you got to look at, you know, the motivation. What is the internal driver for me? Did want to change that. Is it changing myself identity? Who I am? Is it changing my values or is it enhancing my values or maybe aligning back to my values? Because sometimes, oftentimes when the resistant is there, they often derail our values, NOISE derail us from you know, following our values, sorry, because your values don't tend to change. But sometimes we were too afraid to kind of lean in and align back into our values. So there's so many little things that we need to kind of consider to the internal values that drive that motivation. Because once you'd make a decision internally, we talked about psychological and we talked about the emotional stuff, but the internal something has to I feel like there has to be some sort of why internally that switches you going, No, this is important enough for me to be a pro. This is important enough for me to show up differently. And we talked about this in various episodes in this podcast, sometimes it requires you to move. Because maybe that's the one thing that kind of stimulates that maybe it's a changing of friendship groups. Maybe it's a you losing a job. Maybe it's about you losing, you know, a certain thing and recognizing that you you lost a whole bunch of money from a poor investment, like whatever it is. Sometimes it's like for me was actually, you know, the the when my kids came along, you know, recognizing that I can no longer, you know, function like an amateur and just

Yeah.

Dabble in these things. I need to either make a decision to either go all in on something or not, you know, so all these Internal drivers are going to be sometimes can be a spark of the motivation But it's a decision that needs to be made internally so that you going no I'm turning pro and I then the challenge of course is sticking through which is I'm sure is the methodology

Yeah. And you know, just, just when you said that about, I'm glad you brought up about being a parent because I distinctly remember talking to my brother about this when my first son was born 28 years ago. And as soon as he was born, it was like this thunderbolt came out of the sky, whacked me on the fire. And I went, I get life now. I get life because up until that point, I was really just responsible for myself and yeah, you know, obviously Bettina and we were in relationship, but not to the point. And suddenly I understood the, the bigness of life and.

True.

my responsibility into it and something distinctly shifted in there because I suddenly went, this is now not about you anymore, just dude, it's about you being that parent to that beautiful young kid. And so that was a different distinct shift in there, you know, NOISE and going on from what you said to two before, there's a big distinction between inspiration and motivation because there's, and I'm always fascinated by this where people.

Hmm. Yeah.

you know, when you look at professionals, they go beyond getting the tangible rewards in the short term. They're, they're, they're compelled by something bigger. NOISE It could be that they're moving towards something, or they could be that they're running away from something. And that's all the value structure that you're talking about. But there's something about a professional who focuses beyond just the initial recognition and is tapping into something different. He's tapping into something that is drawing them on like. You know, you look at some of the, you know, the, the, the Tom Brady's of this world, they're inspired by something. I don't know. Motivation can help you get moving to a point, but at some point for me, I felt that it has to switch and that can quite often be the difference because you're then inspired by something else, something different. So that's how I've always reconciled it in my mind.

Well, I think it's the main distinction also that has to happen. It's not just thinking, but doing. So like I met a lot of people and listen, I'm very guilty of this to some extent. I still am to this day and I'll fully admit to that, which is where you know, you're not playing. I like a professional, but there's moments in my life and I just, you know, and these are, you know, people that I've seen, which is where they say they're doing everything. But when you actually question going, everything, right? And the reality isn't because they're more concerned about fantasizing and thinking about what they've already done, but really not actually risking anything. They're not pushing themselves at all to change anything. And this is where going back to the video game example is like literally just playing a video game, going back to the same circle, same big boss. and trying to destroy that boss the same way you've been trying for the last hundred times and not succeeding. Like if you don't change anything, you're not willing to change anything else, you're never going to win. You're never going to get past that big boss. And that's the reality of what we all are doing when we get stuck. I know I'm stuck in certain areas of my life and that's exactly what it is. I'm just refusing to change, right? And until I'm ready to go, all right. I'm willing to fight that resistance. I'm willing to do something different and embarrass myself. I don't think I will improve in those areas. And that's something that you have to admit, you have to be aware of.

See you. Yeah, it is. There's a part of us that has to walk in the hallway of mirrors and have a really good look at how we're doing things because you're right. It's, you know, doing the same thing, expecting a different result, as Einstein said, is a definition of insanity. You can't keep doing the same thing. And to me, that's a big distinction is taking responsibility. Now, I totally understand that there may be an area where you previously wanted something and you've gone... It's actually not as important to me as it was. So I can let that go. That's different. That's different. You know, but if you, if you wanting something, if you're desiring something, if you're talking to everybody around you saying, I want to do this, this is what I want to do. It stands to reason that there will have to be a set of practices and a set of rituals and routines and habits that you follow that one step after another help move you to there. NOISE And.

Yes.

If you're not doing that, there's either, you said the resistance or there's some secondary benefit that you're getting in your current situation and reality. When you look at it and go, what are you talking about? This is terrible. This is, I don't want to do this. It's like, yeah, but if you were to take that first step, what would you have to lean into? I'd have to put myself out there. I'd have to expose myself. And you know what, as horrible as my current situation is right now, it's less scary than the fear that I may not be good enough or I might get rejected.

Hmm.

So it's better to stay where I am and bitch about what I don't have rather than take ownership and responsibility and step courageously into that first step.

You know, it's, it's as a real life example, and this happened to me this past couple of weeks, you know, uh, and, you know, for those people who listen to the podcast, no, like for my love of paddle, but you know, this year has been challenging, uh, haven't had much time to play, uh, twisting my ankle badly and just, you know, just it's time and effort. I know those are just excuses, but it's true. Like it's, but those are the circumstances, right? So I've only been able to play maybe once a week now where I used to play, you know, two or three times a week. And for the last two months. I would say even almost three months. My game is actually getting worse. NOISE Like I'm losing every game. Like there was one time I went into this tournament, like you do a two hour tournament, I lost every match. I've never done that. And I'm like, I have no idea. And the worst part about that is that it gets in your head. And you start thinking like, am I that bad? And then you force your shots. Cause you don't play regularly cause you're trying.

Yeah.

even almost too hard. And that actually makes it worse. And so now I'm letting down my partners, you know, and, and it got to this point, you know, this past couple of weeks, I'm like, you know, they're saying, Oh, just because you haven't played enough and you haven't, sure. I can blame that. And it is true. I haven't played enough. So I don't want to see the ball. I don't, I'm, I don't see that some of the little things that I used to be able to see, but what it comes down to is like, I haven't actually had a coach. for over a year. Okay, let's face the facts. So yeah, I can keep on playing, which is like that, what I'm talking about, like play the game, I can keep on playing these games, but no one's really teaching me to going, this is what you're doing wrong. This is how you need to improve because I'm just playing a game. We're just having fun. We're just losing. But I'm not actually improving. And if I don't change the way I see the game, or how I approach the game, a way where the mistakes, I can't see the mistakes because,

Yeah.

I'm just, you know, everybody thinks it's because I made that one shot. No, no, it's because the two shots before you made, you made a mistake, which put yourself in that position to have it, to take a really difficult shot. But if you didn't do the shot before, then I wouldn't have put myself in this. These are all the things that a coach would catch up and would tell you and go, this is what you did wrong. You're like, oh, and that's where I'm like, that's enough. You know, taking, I go, I'm not saying I'm going to turn pro, but then me turning pro as a mindset is going,

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, if I want to get better and I'll stop losing, I have to pick up the phone. Right? My excuse before, I'll tell you the resistance, the reason was I haven't found a coach. There isn't anybody. The reality is I just haven't tried hard enough. I haven't asked enough people. Everybody's full. Okay, maybe, but have I actually called? No, I didn't. I just assume everybody's full. One month leads to the next month. And then a year later, I'm like, oh my God, I haven't had a coaching session for over a lesson. in over a year, this is bad. So I reached out to a couple of coaches this week and that's sort of where the journey I'm at. It's because it's, I'm taking self responsibility that if I want to get better, I got to stop being an amateur in a way, develop that mindset.

Yeah. Yeah, NOISE and kudos to you for that journey and sharing that Lawrence, because I totally get it. And see, here's the distinction. If you were happy playing, NOISE competing, NOISE and you were loving it for the joy of it, then that's one thing you go, you lose, you're socializing with people. Heck, I was president of a cricket club and there'll be people in fourth and fifth grade who just love the game. They love being the people who fight up the barbecue, cook the sausages and we're happy. And they go out and play. They never... do anything of any significance, but they didn't care, right? That's different. And you can be an operator as an amateur and feel really fulfilled in that because it's not your highest expression. The pain point I'm hearing for you is that you want to get better out of yourself. You feel there's more capacity and potential. NOISE And consequently, that's what's causing the churn, the gap. NOISE And so you're now then going, am I prepared to pay the price to elevate my outcome? by virtue of investing in that. So that's what that is. And I had to do the same thing with Jiu -Jitsu. So I'm never gonna compete at the Jiu -Jitsu Olympics, but I don't care. That's not about that. You can be a professional in your approach, in how you approach things. NOISE And so for me, it meant, okay, dude, if you're going to elevate along, you have to lean into and have the hardest fights. You've got to train every day. You've got to do this. You've got to watch all of these things that involve refinement. because it was important to me. And so because it was important to me, I'm prepared to pay the price, whatever that is, in order to move forward. Otherwise, I'm just hoping. And that hope is not a good enough strategy.

and you just know that the key critical point to put all of this together, which is making a distinction to be a pro in one area isn't about you being better at jujitsu, isn't about me being better at paddle, okay? That's the instigator to improve, but it's the knock -on effect that if I show up here, if I'm showing up. know, being a pro other areas in life, but I don't show up here, then I'm not really a pro. That's how I need to like, that's how I'm thinking. Right. And that's, I think that's what you're saying, too, which is like, No, I'm gonna, I need to show up here. So that I'm showing out other areas like a pro too, because that's who I am, I'm going to take this, NOISE me as Lawrence Tam, or you as Jim to be a professional at life, not just professional at this and this, but not this, right? And I think that just having that mindset, that mindset of just being a professional in life and doing life professionally, that is the mindset I feel like that's what we're kind of talking about. Doesn't mean you have to, I'm not saying there's no amateur things, you still have your, you know, side hustles, or you still have your things that your hobbies, we're not talking about that. I'm talking about just doing what's right, which is your health, you know, longevity, you know, you know, things are important to you, the things you value your family, your relationships. Being a pro at those things, the key things that makes you who you are and who you're trying to be, that is what we're talking about, being a pro.

Yeah, totally. And it doesn't guarantee that you will get the outcome. I think for me, NOISE as you were talking about, as I was talking about it and as you'll talk about it, it's about your own internal locus of control. It's like, what do I have within me, my capacity to move the needle forward maximally with everything that I have available to me? Because you may have to work harder. And this is what you and I have probably both noticed, Lawrence, is... As you get older, you're going to work harder to stay in the same spot. NOISE And my approach without question is more professional than some of the guys who are 25 years, 30 years younger. And yet I have to work harder just to compete with these guys and they will put in a third of the effort. NOISE Right now I'm not a professional in all areas of my life and world. It's because they're not as high priority. But if in that particular area, if I want to progress in a really difficult discipline, Or if I'm going to try and move ahead in our business areas, I can't be haphazard. I can't be inconsistent. Sometimes I feel like doing things. It's got it. There has to be reproducible pattern, routine, and discipline, a set of practices that will help change that. Otherwise I'm just spinning my wheels and wasting my time. NOISE Right. And, and I think that's the difference. It's not about the sport. It's not, it's, it's about an approach to life.

That's right. Yeah.

and the area of your life that you really want to make big change happen.

Yeah, and I think for us as well is that we are one of our whys we do it not just for ourselves, but we do it because we want to do it as a model to represent to our kids and to show up in life to our you know, to also people who may look up to us. Because reality is that if you don't do it, then are you really creating the best example for those people who are looking up to you? Because we're all a mentor to someone. right, you just might not know it. And the key elements to recognize is like, yeah, you're doing it for yourself, but you're also doing it so that you can be a better steward of this world or your life and the legacy that you actually, you know, are given, or you're trying to create for others. And that's the impact that we talked about in the previous episodes as well. And I think that's what we're talking about. And that's why it's so important to adapt, you know, the the pro mindset, the professional mindset.

I love that. And particularly the pro mindset where things don't go to plan because quite often how many times, like I'm always in awe of someone who under the worst, most humiliating, NOISE heartbreaking experience of result can find within them the grace to rise above that, to honor their opponent, their coach in their moments of real difficult times rather than just.

Yeah.

dropping into their own emotion. They have that awareness to go meta on where they are to appreciate they have a role and they can still show up. And like a couple of weeks ago, my football team got absolutely flogged one weekend. NOISE And as the media normally do their rights off, they're right off, they shouldn't have done this. The next week, they're winning a game and they lost it in the last one second of a game. Very much like the Super Bowl, Lawrence. And... And it was one of those victories where it was like, you know, we snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. No, we snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and couldn't believe it. But what impressed me more was how they showed up the next week is they could have derailed and basically gone down a rabbit hole and totally lost momentum. But what they did is they regrouped. NOISE They then they've been on a winning streak. You know, five out of the last six games, they've won. where they weren't in a week. So something happened, some shift happened. And I would hazard a guess that there was a level of accountability and stepping up that they all had to buy into to ensure that they showed up as more professional than they were previously.

Well, I think this is one of the action steps you need to take for anybody listening is because, you know, it's a reset. Like you do have to have that reset. And sometimes that reset happens when you are, you know, crushed to the depths of the bottom of the bottom, you know, and then you have to figure a way out of it. And it's dark. You know, I know when the, when my team, the Niners lost three games in a row last season and people are writing them off. And it was like, this is it. That's done. Their season's done. you know, with the best team and there's like, no, couldn't make it out, but they got it all the way to the Superbowl, you know, and so, but those three games, I felt like it was always a turning point. I knew those three games were a turning point. I'm glad they lost because it was the thing that gave them the momentum to realize that they have to change their attitude and culture. And I think sometimes I think that's a really good stepping point for those listings. If you know, you need to change it's time now, right? You know, you should, you could have, the best time was, you know, a year ago or five years ago. But the second best time is now making a decision and going, no, no, I'm going to change. And I would suggest the change doesn't, there's two ways of approaching this. One is you make drastic change, right? Do something really drastic and go do it. Sometimes that's actually powerful. But sometimes I think also there's the second approach is to go make a small change. Start small. I don't think I think either approach works. I think it depends on your personality. I think so I think you guys got to evaluate on what is gonna make you stick with it. That's the more important element. Not so much about whether you can change, because you are committed to a change. It's more like, do you go small or do you go big? I think both works. I think it really depends on what it is and who you are, and you gotta know yourself. And once you know yourself, then choose the right path forward. But ultimately, it's just the commitment and the courage to change.

Yeah, I think you pretty much nailed it, Lawrence, there in terms of tapping into why you're doing what you're doing. It always helps you to, I'm just going to summarize, I guess, elements of what I had was there's a particular mindset that governs and determines the difference between amateur and professional. So that is always an area of exploration. Having a look at why you're doing what you're doing and really putting your habits and your routines under a microscope, I guess, and analyze them and say, is this helping me get

Mm -hmm.

closer or further away from this objective or outcome. And if you determine that it isn't, then you look at your habits, routines, and your commitments to self and a process and following it through. And that by nature and by time will move you closer to where you're going purely because you have consistency and momentum on your side.

Yeah. Well, that's the, that's turning pro and Jim is a great conversation. And I really encourage you guys to re -listen to this. Take the step. Like I would love, I hope that some of you got inspired from what we talked about today and go, yeah, I'm going to commit. So do that. Like if you, if you just do nothing other than just committing and then doing one small step, I think that's the beginning of a great thing. And if you want to go read that book, Steven Pressfield turning pro the war war of art, both books are fantastical reads. And he talks about the journey of how he became a writer, which took many years, many years of suffering, decades, I think, of writing books that were unsuccessful, but it wasn't about the book. It wasn't about the destination. It wasn't even about the journey. It was actually about the person he became through the journey that matters more. And I think that's the beautiful end of what we've been talking about, adopting the turning pro mindset versus being an amateur. I think this... is the element of what we can absolutely change everyone and every every person who decides to make that difference. But it's a commitment that to yourself. That's what we have to talk about. NOISE Alright guys, I hope this is enjoyable. I hope this has been helpful. So let's get you on the next episode when we talk about what we actually don't know what we're gonna talk about. So but you got to stay tuned for the next episode. I'll see you soon. Take care.

Hahaha!