Do You Matter?

Welcome to Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. Great to have you on board here, Jim. And I'm going to start with a story here because I think this is a topic that we want to kind of dive into. I was traveling into Bath in the UK and I'm probably not pronouncing the right from the English there. I apologize. I tried to sound like I know what I'm talking about, but it's Bath. Yeah, it sounds exactly how I said it, but obviously it doesn't.

Yeah. Boss. Boss. NOISE

But I'm not even gonna try to attempt that. So anyways, we drove to Stonehenge, which is fascinating, right? Like Stonehenge, I think it's like 3000 years that's been around, 3000 BC. And so, you know, that's a long time. And, you know, it's funny, you know, to watch that and see all the, you know, the stones and just like, I just can't, we were just talking about before the recording, you know, and it's talking about the pyramids and Stonehenge, like how on earth did they do this? Like they literally, these massive stones, they, like 200 -some kilometers, right? First of all, how did you do that 5 ,000 years ago, right? And then they put it in the ground and lift it up. And then on top, they put these two stone pillars and then they use wooden stakes to then lift the one stone, the stone that goes on top, like one section at a time until it gets to the top. Like, that's genius, right? I mean, it's genius not just in any era, but it's genius. Like, you think back on 3 ,000, 5 ,000 years and... And you know, created into that circle and that took hundreds of years to kind of create. They could start it off. It actually showed like what the start was just the circle. And then over the centuries, right over, I think one or two centuries, they kind of created the stone. So you imagine that's generations that occurred to create that, not just like one generation. I'm like, Oh, let's decide to put a circle. And like that took stories of people to kind of create that. I just thought that's really fascinating. We have something very similar here in Portugal, uh, that are. these massive rocks, you know, and they're set in a circle in a circle as well. And it's like, it's weird. It's in the middle of nowhere. And it's like, that's estimated to be 6 ,000 years old. Like how, like, why, you know, in the middle of nowhere, no one even knows about it. I remember finding it on Google maps and you're like, wow, this is a fascinating, but doesn't. And then I then I drive to this little town just outside of bath is called castle down. And it's like small little, tiny little village. And we happen to walk in, just, you know, walk around and we happen to be in the cemetery.

Wow.

It was interesting, these old cemeteries. I was like, okay, every time I walk in a cemetery, like, okay, let's see how old, you know, especially English cemetery, how old, you know, the names are. And I think they're mostly were about 1700, 1800s. But what was fascinating though, I would say a third of them, maybe half of them were so worn away that I couldn't even tell the name or the time or the date. Like literally it was just stone. And there's all the mass, all these graves that have no recognition of who they are, when what happened. It's just, do you just know that there's a grave? And I find that fascinating because I looked at that and the thing, the first thing that came to me was this concept and this thought process around, wow, like, you know, 1800s, let's say, you know, we'll call it 300 years, 200 years, 300 years. I don't know, this family, like what family knows that they are actually there and. what kind of legacy that they, you know, what legacy can they left behind? And those are the things I kind of think about. And then I reflect it back on my life and go, wow, like, you know, besides my kids, and maybe my grandkids, but beyond that, I don't know, do I matter? And that's the question that I want to kind of propose today in our conversation is like, do we really matter? Like, do you matter? Do I matter in the scheme of things? But I'll also dive into the concept of like, we're so afraid to do things I am, I'm not sure you are like to engage in certain things and start rendering like, well, if we really doesn't, we really don't matter that much. And I mean, I'm not saying we don't, like we'll have a conversation around that. But what are we afraid of, of attempting or doing? Because most people are just more worried about themselves anyways, rather than thinking of ourselves. So anyways, that's the topic I want to kind of propose that we talk about today, you know, hand it off to you Jim, and we can have a great conversation. Do we actually?

Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love that. I love having the context of that. Like part of, part of the joy in, I guess, recording the podcast with you quite often is that we come up with a thing, but there's usually an inspiration. There's a process. There's a, there's an experience that leads to that. And so when you initially propose this, I was curious to find out what the motivation is. And I get it now. I totally get it. And I totally agree with you whenever you're in the, in the presence of something that's been endured over long periods of time or ancient, you realize just how insignificant one person can be, right? Like not like how significant one person can be, but also how insignificant we can be in the Graham scheme of things. And so when you're standing in or on or around structures that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years, you realize we're really just a blip. in there. So I totally understand the the the surreal nature of that. It happened. It's happened to me all the time. I love always walking along along ruins. NOISE The most recent time when I went back to Greece, I toured the Acropolis again. And when you know that something's been there, you know, 2000 years, you look at this and go, OK, it's in varying state of decay. But anybody's built a house in Australia, particularly, and it's lasting more than 30 years. They're thinking that it's done very well. But when you've got something that's lasting that period of time, you just realize, wow, this is phenomenal. This is amazing. What care, what responsibility did they take to create this? How did they think about it? And heck, even living in Spain with the Sagrada Familia and realizing that the vision of that was over hundreds of years, NOISE you stop and get despondent sometimes when things don't work to plan within a one, two or three week timeframe.

Mmm.

but it's a really good reframe and reset to understand just how long some of these visionary processes took.

Yeah, I mean, you look at your secret and cigarra, familiar. Yes, the car, familiar. Like that's what a 300 years 300 years, right? And it's still building hasn't stopped. And it's like, it takes a couple of things, right? It takes one to make a significant and long lasting vision of something. But it also requires someone or a group of people to be willing to carry the torch.

Sagrada? Sagrada? Sagrada from the sacred family. NOISE Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

And that's the thing that, uh, that you can never count on. Right. And there's so many things. And I think being in Europe, you know, I'm sure you agree with me is that it's fascinating how, how old things are, like how long ending these things are. Like most of these, you know, statues and you know, castles and stuff are, you know, a thousand years old. Like we have a castle, I took you up there. Uh, the Morris castle that's, you know, that's in the 11th century. That's the 11th century. Like that's a long time ago.

That was amazing. Yeah.

And you know, that's a thousand years old. And when you think about the countries I come from, which is Australia and Canada, I mean, it's only a couple hundred years old, right? And it's, it's, it's just a blip. And you know, from, from our, our perspective is that we, I don't know, like there's, there's this power of looking back at certain things and Marvel that there's certain structures and certain people that will last a lifetime there, you know, whatever their, their legacy has lasted a lifetime.

Mmm.

But that's probably point 0001%. I would say even even less than that, that will make enough of impact in this world. And the legend has to be continued all onwards. And I don't know it's it's but at the same time doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to be a better version of ourselves. Because the reality is that we matter now. Right? Like, you know, you may, you may be insignificant. 100 years from now, no one really remember you. However, you matter now to certain people in your life, your family, the people your clients, NOISE the people in your circle. And I think it's like finding that balance to, to, we all strive to feel like we're significant, but at the same time that can cripple us because we're thinking we're too significant and we matter too much. And so I think we got to balance those side, two sides of things that we are significant, but we're all not so insignificant in the big world scheme. And so it's.

Yep.

balancing that out to go, well, we can actually probably do more than we think.

Yeah, I remember Tony Robbins always saying that people generally underestimate, NOISE overestimate what they can do in a year, but underestimate what they can do in 10 years. And I would expand that even out further and say, you underestimate what you can do in a lifetime, which is huge, which is phenomenal. And yet in the great scheme of life, we're still a blip. You know, like, as you said, in a hundred years from now, what may be remembered, NOISE of you and I here are the people we touch, the connections that we had with people, perhaps something that we passed on to other people who then have continued on, and perhaps a tree that we planted. And that over time creates the shade for our future generations. But it does take a particular type of thinking that, you know, maybe as we mature, you start thinking more about, you know, what Did I make a difference here? Did I live? Did I love? Did I learn? Did I leave a legacy? That kind of thing from Stephen Covey. And that plays further and further on my mind as time goes on because I want to be intentional in the things that are important to me. So I think I've learned over time and I think this is what I really try and instill to people is focus on the things that move the needle for you. mostly and fulfill you because if you're seeking the validation through significance of things that aren't really metrics that will fulfill you, then your time will come and go and you'll look back and go, what was the whole point of that? And I think that, NOISE I guess if I future pace it hopefully many, many years from now and I can look back over my lifestyle, if I created seeds, if I opened up possibility thinking, if I was able to, um, NOISE inspire someone to think differently about something that they otherwise wouldn't have. That to me is, NOISE I will have measured that as significant. I may not have put someone on the moon. I may not have created and built a structure that will endure over thousands of years, but I will have made a difference in the hearts and minds of the people that I touched. And to me that it's an important metric that we have to focus on because depending on who you are, NOISE you're influence and impact with people may be more along that line as opposed to something that's earth shattering, but it's not any less important to the people whose life you touch.

Yeah, it's almost like a chemical reaction though, right? Like you may not be the most significant, you know, igniter or the chemical compound for you to kind of make something bigger, greater, but you may be in important, you know, transitional element or, you know, important bond or, you know, covalent bond that actually is required before that transition actually happens or that chemical reaction happens. NOISE So, you know, without you in the middle, certain things wouldn't happen. And we have those, we've talked about this before with sliding door moments and certain things, like being in the right place at the right time isn't just about you being in the right place and the other person being in the right place. It's also like all these other factors that would have to happen in order for that one incident to occur at the same element, right? And so there's so many things that are just kind of weird that way. And I think that's really important to kind of really consider. And so I guess my question to you is, is that, how do you choose to live your life? Like are you intentional? about thinking that you matter or do you think about that at all or do you kind of once in a while you think about it? I'd love to see how you view the world.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think that from a self -esteem point of view, I think we need to get to the point where we feel like our life matters and we have the capacity to do amazing things. I think that's a base belief that I have. So that helps me to get up, dress up and show up every day looking to make what I can do any individual. NOISE gifts or talents that I may have to put them to the highest and best use. So that to me is a starting point. I think what I've also gotten clarity on as time's gone on is what actually really does matter. Because there's some things that, you know, the old saying, people who matter won't mind, and people who mind won't matter. NOISE So a lot of the times I've gotten better at clarifying who I'm doing what for. and have been able to let go of the things that aren't really important. They might have been a shiny moment of importance in a previous version of myself, but I find I let go more of than engage in and the things that I will engage in. So if I have 10 invitations, for example, I won't take up every one of them. Not because I don't like it, but it's like I've got to, I'm being protective and hoarding. of my time to really spend whatever time I have available doing the things that fuel me, my family and my kids and my friends and expand me as a person. NOISE So that to me is some things that I have gotten to. I wasn't always like that because I saw, I saw, I gained validation for being busy and just doing everything and, and thinking that I had a finite amount of time and I had to ram everything in. And I got to a level of peace where you go, hey, listen, don't drop the important things. Whatever else you'll get to do, you'll do, but make sure you focus on the important things as a priority.

Hmm. Yeah, that's good. Very similar. Like, I mean, I, I definitely don't think about it every day. You know, maybe I should, I just don't. But there's moments like this, where I reflect upon it. And I always love that concept around this thought. I don't know who said it, but it's almost like, you know, you are very special. All of us are a very special snowflake. You know, we're all unique and different, but also at the same time, you're different.

What about you? What about you?

but you're not that different. So it's like, it's, it's finding the balance. And I think that, yes, I do feel that you absolutely right for my self -confidence and also to a sense of purpose. Um, you know, I do need to put myself in a position where I do have to believe that my life matters to someone, you know, and it doesn't have to be like millions of people. It's just like, my life matters to one, at least one person. And because I existed and. I think that is really important because it has that sense of power and that's what humanity is about. You know, being a human being is about your presence here did shape it. And the problem, I think we talked about this earlier where in another podcast where I talked about purpose, where you got to recognize also too that you may never find out what that purpose is. You might live your whole entire life and not realize your existence matter, but you have no idea how it matters. You don't understand, like you might not see the chemical reaction that you actually created for someone else because you exist it, because it's a ripple effect. And so you have to believe, I don't know, you don't have to, but that's how I choose to believe it, that my life, my existence, and my pursuit is selfish for the desires that I want to have, but also at the same time that I know that I'm creating some sort of kinetic energy for something else, for something to occur. So I think that's really important.

Yeah.

But at the same time, I'm also trying to recognize myself. I think it's interesting as I was out, as I was younger, I think I needed to tell myself that I mattered more. Um, and to kind of realize that, and I think that's the typical, um, age that we have to like my twenties and thirties, I almost needed this to make sure that I had to create a significance so that actually that what motivated me as I get older. And I guess you make a certain amount of impact you so.

Yeah. NOISE

you start to really look at all the things that hold you back. And I think the things that hold me back is recognizing that I thought I was special. NOISE And so therefore going back to this topic is which is I'm not that special. NOISE And the reality is I stopped taking myself so seriously and my actions do matter, but at the same time, they're kind of insignificant in some way. And it's really... I think you can still hold those two thoughts together. Like it doesn't have to be counteraction of each other, but I think it depends, you need to kind of pull one thought over another based on what you need at that given moment in time. And I think that's helpful rather than that, rather than having the belief that I'm really, really matter. Like I matter so much. I think that has detriment sides, but if you also believe you're insignificant, that has massive detriment sides as well. I think you need to hold those two.

Yeah. Yeah.

seem somewhat conflicting views, but you need to be able to hold it together. I think that's a lot of thoughts around that.

Yeah, great point you raised there. I was recently, I was watching a documentary, a sporting documentary. It was about the Australian cricket team and they, their tour and the 2023 tour of England and the ashes is in cricket is there's no bigger basically contest than the ashes in there. And what was really fascinating for me, I love these documentaries kind of like, you know, when the Michael Jordan, um, documentary. I love the yeah, I love the stories behind there, the locker room and the behind stories. I find it fascinating. I don't know what it is, but so I'm watching this documentary. What was really amazing is when you talk about having this ability to have opposing views and hold them at the same time, there were Osmond Kowaja was was talking and he had a horrific run of form up until this point and he's going into to um,

Last dance.

into the ashes to play and he's hounded by his failures and the English supporters are letting him know about it as well. And he received a beautiful note or message from his wife going, hey, irrespective of what's going on, we love you. You're amazing beforehand. You're amazing afterwards. Don't allow this experience to define you. NOISE And what was amazing, he goes out there and he has the successive. Centuries he scores a hundred runs in both injuries was phenomenal straight win the test So he's at the highest of his high but then you know his little three -year -old girl comes in to see him and she doesn't care that he's an Australian athlete who's just had one of the best career dates that he's had to her his dad and I know in my own life and world there were days where I'd come home and it could have been the best day could have been the worst day the most challenging day I expanded kicked the lights out of something or got my butt kicked on that day, metaphorically speaking, I'd come home and my kids didn't care, did not care. And to me, NOISE there was a grounding and a truth about that that kept it real. And that's what Kauaja was talking about is that this is what, I guess, family and kids, particularly for people who have them, understand is that... That's a metric, that's a soft metric that you don't even realize that really matters when you think sometimes the fame and the success is what it's about. But a lot of times that's fleeting. To me, it's about what are the things that we'll endure. And to me, it's about some relationships, connections. And that was a really solid moment for me that solidified how important those kinds of things are to me.

Yeah, kids definitely ground you. I mean, your family grounds you and, you know, then Demartini always talks about that, you know, you know, when you're, you're too high, something will always humble you. So, uh, and I think that's, that's really, I mean, it has been true in my life. You know, when you feel like you're the top of the world and number one, that something will always, if you don't ground yourself, you know, relatively soon, something would definitely ground you and humble you, uh, to, you know, to direct, to remind you that you're not that significant. And, you know, it's, uh,

Heheheheh

And it happens all the time, right? You know, I remember when Kobe Bryant died, you're like, how on earth can that happen? Like, you know, he's accomplished so much and, you know, he has so much going and he had his whole, you know, second career going for him and then boom, it's gone. And it's, and those fleeting moments when someone significant dies, you're just like, man, like it's so short. And it could happen at any given moment. And I think that's, and that's the scary part sometimes, I think, you know, it's, it's a, you know, we, we think, It's a challenge. I think we all think that we're going to live forever. Right? Even though we know we know that that's not true, but we live like, as if we have a lot of time. And, you know, and we do, we do have a lot of time, but at the same time, we don't have a lot of time. So there's, there's that balance of finding out recognizing that you, you have to take life by its horns, but at the same time, you can't live life like that every day. I don't know, maybe. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure some people do. But some people, I don't know. I don't think you can live like every day is your last day.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting that I, you say that as well, because that's, that's where my mind was going. And I recently listened to a, an interview with two of the guy, you know, two of the top Jiu -Jitsu guys in the world. Uh, obviously it's my thing. So I, it's my area of interest. NOISE And the number one guy, Gordon Ryan in the world is like, so super disciplined trains 365 days a year. Um, and he's just. You know, he's unbeatable in terms of the sport. There are very few people who are anywhere near what he does. The number two guy is an Australian guy called Craig Jones. NOISE And Craig is the total different opposite person. He's laid back. He's iconic. NOISE He's got a lot of that Australian, she'll be right type of an approach. You know, a bit of a character chart. And he was asked in this interview, you know, what's the difference between you guys? Look, you can do what I do. I take is serious, but I don't take myself seriously. Meaning that he saw the insignificance of self, even though he's doing important work and he's striving and he's trying to do great things. He doesn't load the basis on himself by taking himself so seriously that he realized that it all starts and ends with him. NOISE And, and you know, the people like the Gordon Rines and the, um, the, the Michael Jordan's excelled because they were. they put a higher expectation and demand on themselves and that works, but there are going to be ripple effects as a result of that. You know, right or wrong, NOISE you'll achieve on one metric, but it may miss out on others. And I think that that's the part of the significance that I think you're alluding, you alluded to at least that that's what I made the connection for is, NOISE okay, what's the cost of going all in in one particular pursuit as a metric? Is that really going to matter? to you and like you said, I was in the same, same in my twenties, the significance of achievements validated me so I felt better about it. So there was a particular process of yeah, it matters and I matters and if it's to be, it's up to me and all that kind of thinking. But as time went on, I just, I realized what was for show, what was for armor, what was really me and what really mattered to me. And that's a process of evolution and maturity that I've come to be able to get to that place.

Yeah, it's definitely one of those, uh, challenging things that, you know, when we're younger, we definitely, cause I know we have a couple of young listeners and it's, you know, we're not saying don't do that. I mean, I think it's, it's healthy for you to kind of go do that pursuit. Um, and it don't like, don't let, you know, a bunch of 40 late forties and 50 year olds tell you what you should, it shouldn't be doing is that you just got to get to that stage when you get to that stage, right? Like that we're just reflecting back. I don't think I would change anything. the pursuit that I ever had when I was in my 20s and 30s, because that's what you're meant to do. You're supposed to go after those things, because saying we wouldn't be where we are if we didn't do that, right? So it's easy to, for us, I'm putting myself in the older category, but to kind of provide that wisdom for people, you know, to say, oh, you know, life doesn't matter. Don't take yourself so seriously or don't pursue that hard. Like that's not the message we're saying, right? We're saying that where we are in our stage of a life, we recognize that, the things that we used to pursue no longer serves us at this stage of our life. But doesn't mean that if I had to reverse engineer this and go back or teach my kids, that's not necessarily the advice I would give them because they need to go through that phase. I think they still need to go through our 20s. It is the age of discovery. It is the decade of where you got to find what are you good at? right, and especially in your 20s and your 30s are really important to go, okay, once you figure out what you're good at, you got to leverage the hell out of it, because that's the, you know, your prime time to do that. You know, we are at this stage because we kind of gotten there, we kind of know what we're good at. And we're just basically doubling down and just kind of, you know, collating that. So I think it's just different advice for different people. So I just think it's really important to kind of say that so don't people don't take that the wrong way, that we're not saying that you're not, you're not saying anything. I think it's, healthy for you to feel like you are, you matter to this world. And I think we all matter, like I said, but it's also finding that balance to make sure that you are pursuing things that realize that people will remember you as much as you think they do. And you won't put down people don't care as much as you think they care in the social media world.

Yeah. Yeah. And not even that's a great point. You know, Lawrence, I think I think it's if this is 50, you're like butting up against 50 in your 49th year. And so it's natural that you'll also be quite reflective in that regard. I think I think it's actually a very interesting thing. I'd love to hear your take on it. There were there was there's two or three times, two times that we've had practices and large practices and support a lot of people.

Hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

that we end up selling and moving on. And you do get into, NOISE you know, we know we have a whole lot of service -based people and health providers who listen to our program, but you get into this belief system that you're the only one that can do what is being done. NOISE And it's, you know, your people look up to you, NOISE they respect you, they need you on your top of your game. And a lot of the times a really amazing thing happens is that you leave, And life goes on and people see who they're going to see and people graduate and navigate to the next level of iteration. NOISE And I realized for myself, you know what, at the end of the day, yeah, I served, I helped a lot of people, but I put a lot of pressure on myself thinking that it was more important and I was more important in their lives than I really was when, you know, two years later, they'll be hard pressed remembering my name, but they could hardly pronounce it even when I was there every day. So to me, that's a humbling process to realize that no one's irreplaceable and don't get so hung up on the current situation you are. If you don't like what you're doing, you have the capacity to change and do something that fulfills you rather than as an obligation. Love your thoughts on that, Lawrence, whether you experience a similar thing.

Yeah, I, the year was probably 2004, 20 years ago. Uh, I was probably just leaving my associate practice. Uh, I was an associate there for about two and a half years. And, um, you know, and man, I gotta say I was 29 probably. Yeah. But yeah, so it was 20 years ago. So 29. And, um, I thought, you know, I thought I was the bomb. NOISE You know, I, you know, I, I saw. You know, I had a great practice. I was an associate and, and the practice got sold to, um, to another person. And I hung on there just to stay on. Cause I bought myself a practice as well. So I was moving on. I wasn't staying and, uh, we were transitioning and I remember like, I don't know if I did it. I'm like, you know, I told the chiropractor taking over. I'm thinking like one of the things, you know, that would be good is that we throw away, like create like a farewell party, you know, for, for, for me, so that you can, you can get to see. the transition so I can actually introduce you to the patients. And, you know, I got to admit like 20 years ago, I was thinking that was about me. It's all about me, right? Saying, people saying goodbye to me. Okay. So like, I'll admit it's like, in hindsight, it's like, it's kind of ridiculous. And, you know, it's almost like a big farewell for Lawrence. You know, he's such a great chiropractor to say, you know, that he has meant so much to all these people's lives. And, and, and I remember in that moment, it was like, yes, you know, everybody said their goodbyes. Everybody was, you know, sad or whatever. But on Monday, people move on, right? It's like, NOISE yeah, next, yeah, sure, like it's sad to see you go, but we still gotta get adjusted, right? So we're gonna see the other person. I remember feeling like, oh, like it is over and I don't matter that much. And that's, so I've been, I understand this feeling, you know, now that you reflect upon this, that's exactly how I felt. I mean, it was a very humbling experience.

Next! NOISE Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

to realize that I made myself realize, I'm like, yeah, I matter to those patients in that moment, but life does move on. Like, you know, like life doesn't stop, doesn't begin or start with me. I'm just part of that journey. And as my life moves on, their life continues. And I think this happens our friendships. This happens in families, you know, like every time, you know, I'm sure you are the same with, you know, my family is the same where. you think like, oh my God, it's the end of the world when I moved to Australia. It's like, oh, you're never coming back. No, I'm coming back. And then you realize that, no, I'm not coming back. Guess what? Like they live on their life. Like 20 years later, there's, you know, they're still living their life. Like, sure, they might've missed me, but whatever, you know, they're still living their life. It's not like their life stopped because I'm like, oh my God. And certain, I mean, very small circumstances. NOISE They, you know, life is dependent on certain people, but the reality is, it's like, they just gotta adapt and they gotta move on. Like, sure, my parents. you know, didn't want me to leave, I'm sure, but at the same time, they're like, well, this is life now, and you know, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. And so I think that's really important to, so I've been humbled many times to recognize that I'm not that insignificant. Again, so I'm significant in the moment, but I'm not that significant, you know, in the long run. NOISE And I think, you know, to go on to finish this thought process, which is what you said at the end there, which is,

Yep.

you have an opportunity, all of us have an opportunity to change and all of us have an opportunity to become something different. And I would say that that is very true. We can't we can switch on a dime, but it's very difficult to do that. And the reason why it's so difficult to do that is because we are hamstead, we're handcuffed to our identity, what we think of ourselves, and not only what we think of ourselves, but it's also handcuffed to who we surround ourselves, who, who understands and relates to that identity we've already created. And so for in order for us to change rapidly, it can be very difficult and very challenging for them because you have that pull from a society that you can't just become someone else. We can, but it's hard because all of a sudden people are going to go like, who are you? What happened to you? What happened to the old Lawrence? And I think that thought process prevents us from changing. And so what becomes easier, again, like I said, you can definitely do that. But there's con there's not consequences, but there's uphill battle that. Well, you and I think I, we we've done this a couple of times, which is if we moved to a different country, different environment, no one knows us becomes easier. Right. The environment you changing your environment can really change that, that process, because I definitely know that when I moved to Australia, I changed. I even want to move to Perth. I change. I went to Sydney, I changed, and I moved here. I changed. I think subtly there's certain changes that are me. I'm still who I am, but I was able to lean in.

Mmm.

to certain things or fears that I would have had in my previous life or my previous identity because that was an identity. And it's so weird that it takes me to have a different environment for me to have confidence to let go of the old identity and create a new one.

Yeah, sometimes you choose it for yourself. Sometimes it's chosen for you, right? NOISE Just I want to help you out here too. You weren't the only one who had a farewell party for himself, Lawrence. NOISE We had one particularly when we left Dubbo at the same time we had our practice with there for six years. I was president of the cricket club. I was also involved in road tree. So there are a lot of people that I knew. NOISE The greatest practice.

Hmm.

management system I ever knew was just to walk around this country town and say hello to people. It was phenomenal. And I never had to worry about recalls. I just walk around and people go, yeah, must come and see you. Great. Awesome. Done. And that's, that was it. It was about built around connections. So I had that, but I can look back through the critical lens and go, yeah, it was probably about me. I can, I can own that. But it's interesting about, I want to share a story with my oldest son who, Growing up, you know, let's just say that he challenged authority, you know, probably inherited it. And apart from me, I'll totally own that as well too. But when he was in school, he created some turmoil around his school and had a reputation for being a kid who would never take a teacher just on face value. They had to earn their stripes, you know, and if he saw an incongruency, he'd call it out. Pretty much that's just how he is. He still is that to this day. After a while, he went, I'm going to leave this school." So he left the school for a couple of years and then chose to come back. In those two years, he really matured a lot. He grew up a lot, took responsibilities, a lot of things, came back into the same environment. He had changed, but the people's version and opinion of him hadn't. And so he felt constrained, more so the second time than the first time, because people's perspective and view of him hadn't adapted. as far as he had grown. So even though he was expressing things that were over and above what the previous version of himself was, he couldn't outgrow people's perspective and perception of him. So he found it really challenging. There were challenges at school, NOISE there were detentions at some stage. NOISE Everybody blamed Sebastian for it. It was a day he wasn't at school. NOISE So we were initially going, hey, dude,

Hmm. Hmm.

whenever we hear that something's happened, our first question is, what did you do first? We had to ask him that question. NOISE And often he'd go, I did this and this and this, but he would get to the point where he would write an essay and halfway along, he put something contentious, something in there and the teachers would never read it. And he proved to us that they don't take me seriously because he is, so that's a challenge as well too. If you decide that you want to change, if you are really want to do something different, NOISE but the environment, the surroundings and the people around you can't adapt to expand, to allow that version of you to come through, you're going to be constrained by your environment.

Yeah. Yeah, it's so, and that's a perfect analogy of, and, and, you know, you're with your son on how, how difficult it is to change up your identity, not because of you per se, but actually the outside world isn't accepting of the new personality that you have created, um, because they are so, they're still hung on to the old identity that they saw you in. And it's. Like if you think about like an actor, for example, it's really difficult for an actor to kind of get out of like a role that they're so well known for. You know, like let's say Kramer from Seinfeld, you know, like, I don't know if he's ever done anything else other than Seinfeld. Like you can't see him in any other work because he was so iconic in that role. And it takes a really intentional, you know, shift in terms of being able to shift the people's perception. Matthew Conahay, I don't know if you ever read his autobiography,

Correct. NOISE Yeah. Yeah, green lights, green lights, yeah.

with green light, you know, you know how he went from like this romcom kind of guy and that's all he was getting and he I think for his two years that he just turned down jobs after jobs because he really wanted to go into something different and challenge himself creatively. And he had to refuse millions of dollars to get to that place. But that's that that was two hard years he said. NOISE But that's sticking to a sticking to it. Right. So people have to but then someone had to give him a chance to prove that he had a new identity or a new personality. And so that's really tough. So if you, you know, we were lucky, well, lucky or by choice, we moved situations, we changed our environments where some, I think if you don't change something, whether it be friendship, which we already had a conversation around this podcast episode around friendships and the five closest people around you. If you don't want to change your environment, the people you hang around with, it becomes very challenging. It's challenging for you, challenging for everybody else because they just can't shake what they already know because everybody puts you in a box. They see you in a certain way and it's very difficult to re -create and re -brand yourself and take a lot of effort. It's not impossible, NOISE but it takes a lot of strong reputation. I mean, look, Robert Downey Jr. would be one example where he was some drug guy who's just always partying and got drunk and do a whole bunch of drugs. It took him many years being in jail and all this stuff to be able to come up and to be in a position where he is now. And so it can be done, but the changing of the environment, I do think, will definitely affect your identity. So if you know your environment is causing you to behave a certain way that you don't like, you have to have the courage to find that courage to be able to make a choice to go, this is no longer who I am. Especially like say you're drinking and you don't want to drink, but... you're always surrounded by people who always saw you drinking, they only parted you with your drinking. That takes courage to say, no, I'm not doing this anymore. And it takes a lot of courage. You have to ride through this transitional period where they're either gonna accept you for not drinking or they won't. And that takes courage, right? So that's just one small example, but even though it's small, it's a massive thing. So you can imagine that applies to anything else in your life who you want to change in your life, that surrounding yourself with the people and changing your environment is such a very important matter.

Hmm.

step to be able to rewire your identity.

Yeah, and it is, and you're right, because when I look back at what we've done, NOISE like, it was difficult for both of us to do what we've done in a lot of ways. And yet at the same time, I agree with you, it's been easier because it's been easier to rebrand and start a new version of ourselves without the constraints of our previous reality reinforcing that identity view of us, right? So the hard part was going from a... as I said, a significant preeminent position to an environment, the outside of the world where, okay, not a lot of people know me here locally. And so that has been a challenge. And yes, we're getting traction and you know, you and I've talked about that and that process, we've gone back to the basics of it, but how we've done it has been a way that's been redefining. So we've been significant, insignificant, and in the process of, I guess, reestablishing authority, reestablishing our value proposition. on a different metric than we probably had before. And I think that's the, you know, like, and why I say that is because, you know, there are plenty of people who have a life, who run a business a particular way and have done so for the last 25 years. To change it on a dime and stay in the same business is really hard, is really, really difficult. And, you know, you're going to polarise, you're going to annoy the people who have gotten used to engaging with you based on that version of yourself. And so there has to be a huge faith play both in yourself and other people to go, we used to do it this way. You know, with co -practice we deal with Lawrence, they may practice a particular way for 25, 30 years and overnight they'll change it and say, from now on Monday, this is how we're going to do things. That is a lot harder than just selling it up as it was moving on and then starting a new version. NOISE You know, and, and twice now I've, I've, I've basically, I had to do.

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

both, you know, started from scratch several times as well, but I had to take over a practice that was stuck in a particular identity to shift that was really difficult. So to me, I think that the significance that you play quite often validates you, but also it gives people around you, I guess, security and reassurance. But when you change the metrics, you destabilize the whole dynamic there. And suddenly, you know, that's not going to go too well.

Yeah, and I think when you know, if we're going to summarize this is, I think one of the major things is to kind of think about is you do matter to go back to the question that we kind of started off or do you matter and I think we all matter. But it's also your responsibility to each of our own responsibility to shape how much you matter. And because no one's going to do it for you because we're all individually trying to figure out and defining how we matter to our own to our circles. And so no one's going to define it for you. And if you're waiting for someone to define what your role is in this world, and in this, in this universe, um, you're going to be waiting a long time. And so I feel like this, this conversation, I hope it inspires someone to go, yeah, you're right. Like this is, we do matter. And you know, whether or not it's be known or if whether or not you're going to be rewarded for it or not, that's irrelevant, but you do. you are the only person who can shape the direction of your life in a way that's going to change and create a narrative that could make a massive influence. NOISE And but that's your choice. And that choice has to be done by you and you alone. But at the same time, don't take yourself so seriously. Like, like, there's definitely gravitas. And there's gravity in terms of what I'm just saying, you know, to to to make sure that each decision matters, but also ensure that you have fun along the ride. Because what's the point if you are going through this journey and you know, you lose sight of what matters to you. And I think this is, you brought that up about, you know, sporting stars and they created all these things. Sure, they might be, let's say an Elon Musk, like he might be someone that is significant for a lot of people and see them as an idol or Michael Jordan and all those people. But you have to evaluate, is that what you want? Because in order for you to be that significant in the world, I feel there's a cost. And the decision that they made, right or wrongly, is not for me to judge because I'm not them. They obviously made a conscious decision, like it's worth the cost. The question I have for each one of you is like, are you willing to sacrifice that? Are you willing to give up? certain things that may matter to you in order to achieve that. Cause sometimes the answer is no. And so, you know, whether it be your family or whatever relationships, those are important factors. They are important to you. You also have to recognize the consequence of that is may, you may not be as significant as you want to be. Everything has a cost. Every decision you make has a cost. And that's what I want to kind of really say. It's more just recognizing the self -evaluation of what you value the most because those decisions should be made from that position. I hope that makes sense.

I've got nothing to add Lawrence, I've got nothing to add. I mean, NOISE I'll leave it at that.

All right, guys. So I hope that you enjoyed that. This is a reflective podcast and I want you to hopefully take something away from this and I'd love to hear from you and to see what you thought about that. And I hope this podcast was meant to make you think. We just shared our opinions and how we think and some of it was the same, some of it was different. But the reality is that this is what life is about. And this is what Wabi Sabi is about, the art of imperfection. So until then, we'll see you in the next episode. Take care.