Who is Laurence Tham?

Welcome to Wabi Sassabi, the art of imperfection. This is a brand new episode and we're like to, we'd just love to start by just bringing Jim on here because I think Jim has a theme, a topic that he wants to discuss. So I'll just leave it to him and pass him the ball.

Well, thanks Lawrence. Well, my it's interesting. I want to talk about you and specifically, uh, previously in a podcast episode, you put me under the spotlight and I guess got an opportunity to ask me some questions that were, perhaps you hadn't even asked and, and thought about, NOISE and it gave people some context about who I am at the essence of, of my story and how I got to here. So I thought it'd be a great opportunity to return serve and return the favor. Not because I found last week uncomfortable, I found it fantastic. I found it really enjoyable. And I just thought that this would help people understand you. And when they're working with you, they would understand where your influences and your story and your experience come through by virtue of what you've lived through. So I think that would be really handy and great sort of context to go through.

Well, I'm glad I got a haircut today because we weren't even supposed to be talking about this topic, but fresh haircut. NOISE I must have known something was happening today.

Well, well, NOISE Lawrence, NOISE if you suspicious, if you didn't suspect there'd be one of those questions coming in there at some point, NOISE we don't know, we don't know each other well enough, but I'm sure it'll rear its, its head somewhere along the way, but looking resplendent, let's just for people who are, who are listening to this and not watching it, you're missing out, you're missing out, but it's, it's magnificent. NOISE Turn, turn, go to the left and right. Give me, give me a look, give me a look.

Oh no. NOISE It's the shortest I've ever had it actually, you know, it's literally on the side. Like, like it is literally the shortest. The guy, the person, the person was like, Oh, do you want a two? I usually get a two and it's like, do you want to do a two, one fade? And then I think there was a miscommunication in the English language. Uh, and he just did a one. I'm like, okay, well then I guess it's done. Cause I wanted a two and then we can go shorter, but no, he went with the one, which means it forces me.

It's looking sharp, okay Yeah. Yeah. I've had, yeah, yeah. A one, a one is a one. You know, back in the day when I did get them, I used to get a one. One felt fantastic at the back of the head. NOISE So you feel the breeze and you feel it a lot more. NOISE So you get in, you go to a zero and you can feel everything, Lawrence. So let's, let's get started. NOISE So, okay. So what I was going to say is I'm sure at some point it will come up, but not, not off the bat. NOISE So how about we start off?

Yeah. NOISE Yes. Oh, right. Well, I'm not ready for that yet.

with a little bit of the Lawrence Tam origin story for people who don't know you exceptionally well, where does it all begin and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Well, listen, I grew up in Canada. I was born and raised in Canada. Brampton to be specific, be more specific. NOISE By the age of five, NOISE I actually, my parents, that was, NOISE you know, I was born in 1975. So in 1980, my parents made a decision to actually leave Canada to go to Hong Kong. That's where my grandfather was on my mom's side. And he had a big real estate company in construction and building a lot of apartments in Hong Kong. And they just needed some help. And my parents thought that... you know, my dad would be an asset to help build a company. And so, and they also felt that it was good for me and my brother to go over there to learn some Chinese, Cantonese, and also understand our heritage a little bit. And so we went there, but I always had this reluctancy to actually go, you know, so it was similar to you, like, you know, you have country when you're young and I did the same thing. And there was a bit of, I had, I was a pride of being a Canadian. I remember going to Hong Kong specific. I don't have a lot of memories before nine, to be honest with you. I definitely don't have much memory before five, but I had this memory of going to Hong Kong thinking that this is only temporary. And I actually told all my friends, this is temporary. Like I'm not here for very long. I'm just here for a little bit. I'm going home. NOISE And you know, four years later, NOISE 1984 was a strange kind of, 1980s was a strange kind of period of time, you know, high inflation rates. really killed my grandfather's business. They bankrupted them. They bankrupted he was highly leveraged. NOISE My uncles made some terrible decisions and not selling certain things and basically had to run. We had to figure out how to get out. And that in combination of not just the high interest rates, but also high NOISE volatility in Hong Kong, because that was also the time period when the British Empire also said, we're going to give Hong Kong back to China. So that created a huge uncertainty. But that was not to 1999, but that was a mass panic and a mass, you know, exodus of Hong Kong. NOISE Because they were just on, they don't want China to come in and take over and you know, ruin that. So a lot of people just left. NOISE So combination of all those things happening at the same time made us decide to go back to Canada and also get my grandfather and grandparents out of the country just in case he, you know. because he was carrying bankruptcy and we didn't want any troubles and had to get him out. And then eventually brought all my aunts and uncles. My mother is the eldest of eight, so you can tell seven brothers and sisters to bring over. NOISE There's a lot of things happening at that time. NOISE So I remember going back to Canada at nine years old, similar to your story, not speaking a word of English now. NOISE So I spent four years speaking Chinese and didn't speak a word of English. And I remember going to summer school when we first moved back in in 1984. I was in summer school in July and I couldn't speak a word of English. I remember looking at my Timex watch at the time, counting down the minutes I recessed. It was the most dreaded 15 minutes of my life every single day. And it was like, this is the longest 15 minutes. I didn't have any friends, couldn't speak to anybody. And that's all I remember. I don't remember anything else in summer school. I just remember just being very lonely.

for you. Yeah.

So yeah, and it was also this little bit of an embarrassment that I come back to a country that I was born and raised in, and I can't even speak its native language. And I just remember how sucky that felt. NOISE And then we moved to the neighborhood we actually ended up growing up in and going to school. And there was a couple other kids from Hong Kong that moved there too. And we were like the fobs, right? The fresh off the boat kind of kids.

Hmm.

and we spoke Cantonese and spoke to each other and we kind of didn't really integrate well, but I was the one who actually integrated well, because over time, eventually I think my English came back and I can speak, you know, without an accent and, you know, it just kind of integrated. So I was kind of bridged in both worlds, you know, the Chinese world and also, you know, the Canadian world for quite some time. So that's sort of, that was the beginning of sort of my journey before high school.

Yeah, you know, Lawrence, you've said that before and I hadn't heard elements of that story. NOISE So whenever, you know, whenever I'd shared elements of it, you go, there is such a commonality between what our stories and, and I really got that as you were talking about that. NOISE So it's very interesting that you say that, you know, between seven and nine, whatever, you can't remember a lot of it because I also have specific things that I just don't remember, whether it was just my, my mind blocking it out or. And you know, but, and you highlighted specifically about some things that you do remember, was the loneliness, was elements of not being able to communicate. So I get that. And I guess one of the things that I, you see then is you see quite often the games we play, the activities we have, the interests we have as kids quite often, or the experiences quite often formulate the adult and the person that you become. So. Can you look back now with the experience and the advantage of NOISE hindsight to look back at yourself back then and look at some of the threads that were in an embryonic stage that you can now see were dots that you're connecting that ultimately led to who you are today?

Yeah, there's definitely you know, I told that I went into detail about the Timex watch in my loneliness as a kid. And the reason why it took me a long time to kind of figure this out and connect the dots to it, which was this feeling of being outside the box, NOISE being outside the square looking in. And that feeling kind of never left. You know, I've always felt that I'm always out just outside the main. square circle, whatever you want to call it. And if you think about it, I'll just give you some highlights on a few things, right? One is I chose chiropractic as a profession, which is a, the healthcare profession just outside of medicine, right? Just looking in, it's not medicine, it's just outside, you know? And so, and even in every circle, even within the chiropractic profession, there's an inner circle. There's some sort of a, I don't know, brotherhood. I was never really fully in, yeah, a clique or brotherhood or whatever inside.

click, I click, yeah

Every profession has this, every system has it. Never invited. I was just always just in the outskirt. I'll get praises for whatever things I do, whatever, but never fully invited into the clique. NOISE And these things keep on happening to me. And over time though, it took me many, even high school, I mean, I was definitely not popular in high school. I was the biggest nerd ever. Like you would not, if I showed you pictures of me in high school, you would not recognize who I am. You're like, how did that turn out to this? NOISE Right? So it's, uh, it just, one of those weird moments, bad hair, glasses, NOISE four -eyed, you know, just really just nerdy looking, you know, um, I was a nerdy kid who, but didn't have the brains. NOISE So it was the worst combination. Um, no style whatsoever. Lucky I had to wear uniforms, uh, you know, a shirt and tie and, uh, so that I could never hide my, uh, I mean, going like how bad it was, it was more like my parents weren't fashionable. And so when we had casual day, like I, you know, I wore track pants. Like that's what, you know, but remember this is back in the nineties, right? So that wasn't a thing like, right. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was rolled up jeans and stuff. I never had that, you know, and I didn't, I don't think I own the pair of jeans probably until it was like 20, you know, 20 years old, 21. It's like, it's just, it's, I just kind of give you some insight on my, on my fashion sense. So it's just one of those things I was never popular, never, I was always outside looking in. And so it was.

Yep. But that was a thing back then. That was a thing. Yeah. So got it. Got it. Got it.

It was really until later later on in life, I realized I just accepted that instead of just trying to force it. You know, I just went like, you know what, do I, you know, we all kind of want to be in the inner circle, but the reality is like, I actually enjoyed not being in the inner circle. I enjoy just looking in and you, I kind of like being the little bit of an underdog. You underestimate me a little bit. And I enjoy that rather than being in the center. Um, and that's sort of where I kind of accepted it. And as soon as I accepted that, man, I think things just started happening for me. Like personally, I think the certainty kind of came through, my confidence came through rather than trying to wish I was inside something. I was like, I'm embracing, I'm on the outside for a reason. And I think there's some, NOISE like instead of thinking I need to be in that circle, I'm like, I'm going to just form my own circle. I'm going to form a circle that's more inclusive rather than being exclusive. Cause I hate it being, uh, being left out. I just ended up creating this. So there's all these things that kind of kept, um, that has kept on coming up with my life that. I think allows me to become the person I am because of those little incidents in the past.

Okay, and do you think that having that perspective, being the outsider, NOISE has given you the ability to see things that others don't see, to try things that others don't try, and as a result get different outcomes?

Yeah, of course. I think being an outsider, you see things that, uh, you see what's common. Uh, you start to see how to find commonalities in terms of languaging and communication. I mean, think about this, Jim, we live in a country that we don't belong to really in a way. Right. And I just realized that right now, as I was speaking, like I'm again, I'm still in it. I'm outside looking at them out, not Portuguese. Uh, I'm living in a country that, you even prior to this, I was in Australia. I'm a Canadian in Australia. I don't know where I am. Like people ask me, like, where are from? I'm like, Australia. But you don't have an accent. No, I don't. I'm Canadian. NOISE And so, but I lived like almost the same amount of time in Australia and in Canada in my lifetime. I lived about 20 years in Australia. I lived 23 NOISE years in Canada. So it's, I kind of lived both lives. I had four years in Hong Kong, now two years in Portugal. So it's kind of weird, right? So not having, I'm always kind of like outside, but I actually enjoy it. And so, To answer your question, yeah, I see different perspective. I see, because of my different experiences, NOISE I won't get sucked in too much, hopefully, to a certain culture, a certain way that allows me to kind of find the thread that is uncommon. The uncommon commonality is what we're trying to kind of look for.

Yeah, great. So I guess in coaching and working with people, tell me about how that can be really helpful in helping and supporting people look for solutions or ways moving forward.

Yeah, for me, you know, for coaching, you know, let's define coaching first. Like I think coaching for me is it's about, there's a difference between like practice management and coaching practice management. Usually it's like helping someone, you know, become a better person or a better business because of a, with certain style and certain, um, you know, ways of doing things. I think that's practice management where coaching, I think is you actually finding ways to help people see things they don't want to see and help people hear things they don't want to hear. and more importantly become the person that they always wanted to be. And so in order for me to do that is that I have, you know, finding the commonalities and how I can actually interact with the person and getting inside their head to really fully understand their situation, not from my situation, but really trying to get them to understand their situation based on their experiences, based on their world. And I don't have to live it to actually understand it, because I have, you know, seen so many different perspectives. I can really get it. One of my skills that I feel is that I can get inside feeling, their perspective easily. Even when I was a chiropractor and dealing with patients, I was able to kind of understand where they were coming from, what was going on with them, how is affecting them, how they impacting them. By seeing that, I was then able to find the words to communicate with them from their perspective, from their worldview. And I think that was my strength, I guess. I was able to kind of really kind of get inside to help them really see how I can actually benefit and create value.

Yep.

So coaching is similar to that. I can see their problems because we have a common commonality of, you know, either my profession or what I've gone through or what I've helped other people go through. But then also share not what everybody else says, but share things that, you know, that other people wouldn't share because it's just uncommon. It might be the counterintuitive advice that you would think you wouldn't think that would actually work. you know, oftentimes, for example, everybody's like, everybody wants growth, everyone who wants to be better, everyone who makes more money. But I always ask the question, for what reason? Like, what are you doing this for? And once we kind of get to that, sometimes like, I mean, just had a client recently just to say, Hey, you know, like, I want to, you know, grow this business, want to go with, you know, you know, 1 .5 million or whatever, like you just keep on, you know, want to grow. And then after a few months, after a month or so, it's just really like, is that what you really want, though? You know, because it sounds to me like you actually just want. to slow down, right? It sounds like you just want more freedom. You want to do these things. NOISE And then, and money is not the thing you're going after. And then when you actually peel down the layers and you start to realize, I'm like, yeah, I actually, I don't know why we're pushing to have, you know, this much. It's like, we don't need anymore. I'm like, yeah, so, so let's, let's focus on the things that you actually want. But most people don't have the, don't have the time or they don't spend enough time to really reflect upon why they actually go in after certain things.

Mmm.

Because society always tells you that you need more money, more revenue, more patience. So.

Got it. Got it. Got it. So anybody who's been listening to our podcast will know that you went into Chiropractic College, you met Karen, you got married and you moved from Canada to Australia. So could you talk a little bit about the process that led you to leave Canada to embark on a journey with Karen to Australia?

Yeah. So when we got married in 2001, it was four days after 9 -11 happened and you know, flights weren't really going anywhere. And, but we are on the, one of the very first flights that got to actually leave the gone holiday in Hawaii. And after Hawaii, we spent two weeks there, beautiful vacation. And then, um, she flew back to Toronto and I flew to Sydney because I had a conference there was actually the WCCS was the World Congress of Chiropractic Students. I was the previous president in Toronto for my school, for the whole WCCF for Toronto. And I ran the conference in Toronto the year before in 2000. And so in 2001, it would happen to be in Sydney. So I want to take every opportunity to go to Sydney. I'm working my only chance in Australia. So I took that chance and go there and after my honeymoon and I freaking loved it. I loved every moment of my time in Sydney. And just, I don't remember much. I just remember. just falling in love with the city or just what Australia had to bring you, it just kind of changed my, I did not expect what Australia was, you know, and I guess back then it was just, you know, and you just think it was crocodile Dundee and, and, uh, you know, just, just, you know, the wilderness kangaroos and whatever, but you realize it's like, no, this is a, this is a beautiful, beautiful city. And so when I went, I had a friend there, uh, that lived in there, it's, uh, lived in Sydney as well. So I spent a couple of days with her after the conference. And when I went back, I told Karen, like we, At the time, I was just about to graduate in about sort of seven, eight months. And we couldn't find a place where we wanted to practice in Toronto. I wanted to open a practice. I just couldn't find a, an area that we just wanted to like, feel like we can dig our, um, dig our feet in and say, this is where we're going to live. This is where we're going to practice. And so when I went back, I was just kind of inspired. I'm like, well, since we don't know what we want to do and you don't really love your job, why don't we just go to Australia and just. locum for a year and you can just figure out what you want to do and find your life purpose. So she said yes. And, and I reached out to my, my fourth year, which was a couple years ahead of me when I was in, when I was in first year, who we all get paired up through a first year, second year and a third year and fourth year. He, yeah, my buddy. NOISE And he actually, when he graduated, he went to Australia. So I sent an email, he responded and he found me three months worth of locum work. And it was awesome. And since then it was like,

Your buddy, your buddy, yeah.

Boom, bought a ticket. You know, my mother -in -law said, you're gonna bring my daughter back, right? I'm like, yeah, we'll be back in 10 months. Because my brother was getting married in 10 months. We're like, yeah, we're only going for 10 months. And we bought a return ticket, obviously. But we always had a plan B, which was like, if this doesn't work out, we work for three months, we don't hate it, we just come back. Like, you know, whatever. We have nothing to lose. We had, I think we had like $10 ,000, NOISE like Karen worked.

you

She over four years, she saved $10 ,000. Um, that's all we had back then. Uh, I wasted, NOISE Oh, we're not wasted, but we need a new computer. I got scammed. That's another story. Uh, got scammed of a laptop, uh, like maybe $2 ,000 worth. And now we're down to eight flew over to Australia, had to buy another laptop. So that's probably down to about, I don't know, six or something flew to Australia, then had to pay guilds insurance. And that was about three 3 ,500. I was down. We were down to like our last like,

Yeah. Clocks ticket, clocks ticket, man. NOISE

3000, NOISE you know, and you know, you get registration, all that stuff happened. And then that's where starting point with that was 22 years ago. And we were in Adelaide. That's where we started. We walk in the beach every day. And you know, from a boy in Toronto, you know, when it's a city and there's no ocean and you're walking in the ocean every day in the middle of winter, you're like, this is life. And within two weeks, we just said, I said to her, I go, we have to, I think we need to consider staying here another year, like one year. And this is two weeks in. And that's when she said, you know, she goes, but you know, we told our parents, we're going to come back, you know, what about our parents? And, and that's, and that was a critical point in my life. And that's why I'm spending a bit of time on this story, because I think it's important because that time I said to my wife, I was clearly remember this. I don't remember much in the past, but this is something I do remember walking on the beach. And I said to her, I go, listen, I go, I get that you, you know, your parents will miss us. And I get that you miss your parents hurt. She spoke to her mom every single day at that time. And so, but I go, we also have to realize something. We are family now, you and me. And if we're gonna make a choice, NOISE I wanna be very clear that I don't wanna go back. And at some point in the future, when our parents do move on at some point, I don't wanna look back in our life that we made a decision for them and not for ourselves. And I don't wanna live in that regret. I just wanna be very clear. And I think she heard that. And we had to like, we drew a line in the center realize that no, it's you and me now, rather than our extended family and our parents. Cause you know, at that time we've always been under our parents, right? And we kind of drew a line going, no, we want to live our life. And so we made a tough call. I took a job in Perth full time for two years. And that was the beginning of our life. And that was a fundamental decision to this. No, I mean, it was hard enough decision to move to Australia, but it was a definitely a big step in. drawing a line in the sand to say we're staying for longer and making a choice for ourselves. That was a, I feel like I look back, it was a gutsy call, you know, being away and, NOISE but you know, in hindsight, we spent Easter, Christmas by ourselves, no family, no friends. It was actually kind of nice. We didn't have the, all the family obligations that we needed to go to because they were too far. We didn't feel compelled. We went down to Margaret river and we went to like, we just spent time by ourselves and it was like,

Yep.

Oh, we're creating our own rituals here. We're creating our own moments, what Easter means and what Christmas means without the hindrance. And I think sometimes we need to do that. Sometimes you need a clean slate to start over because oftentimes we just fall into these traditions because that's how our parents did it. And I think that really reshaped who we are and how we wanted to run things as a family.

Yeah, you're right about the default and this is how things have done and this is how they've always been done. So we'll keep that going. So it does take a different level of thinking and courageousness to change that script and do things differently. NOISE So you're in Perth, you've been there for a while, you've built a successful practice. I'm very curious about the inspiration to move to the other side of the country. Now, you've mentioned that you loved Sydney as a city. What was the catalyst for the move from Perth?

Mm.

to Sydney.

A lot of things happened in the background. So, you know, at the time I, um, I took sabbatical off practice. Um, I felt like I was starting to, I started coaching at that time and, and I, and I just wasn't feeling the, the passion for practice itself anymore. You know, I still love chiropractic, but I wasn't feeling it from a day to day, you know, dealing with patients and a few things happened with clients that just made me rethink about, NOISE is this what I want to kind of continue to be doing? And. Not that I don't you know, people always ask me do I miss it? I even literally had a chiropractor asked me two days ago Do you miss it and the answer is no like if I missed it I would go back but I don't miss I'd miss the adjusting part But I don't miss the day -to -day interaction with patients not that I know if any patients are listening not because I don't miss you guys it's just I don't miss the I mean, there's just so many little things that I just felt that I was getting bored with and I remember listening to Steve Jobs commencement speech in Stanford and he talked about how I And I'm paraphrasing, he talked about like, if there's too many days where you stare in the mirror, and realizing that this doesn't feel right, you have to go and do something bold, you have to do something to change. And, and that's what I was doing. I was I was actually literally adjusting patience. And I went, I don't enjoy this anymore. And it wasn't like this is one moment, it was just like these continual moments day after day. And I went, I got to get out. This is not this is not good for me. But it's also no good for my patients. You know, And this is when my kids were really young too. And I felt like I wanted to spend more time with them. And so I just decided like one month, it was January. I remember I went to, you know, January, I said, I'm going to take a sabbatical and as of February 1st. NOISE So and I did took a sabbatical and I never I took a sabbatical and then within a month, I knew I was done. And I never went back and poor patients. I never actually even got a chance to say goodbye because I thought I was coming back. I told them I'll be back in about six months. I never did. And I sold the practice. And once I sold the practice, I went to visit a friend in Sydney in the Northern Beaches. And I didn't even know that part of the world existed. Like I thought Sydney was Sydney. You know, when you go to visit a city, sometimes you just go visit the city. But I never imagined myself living in Sydney because, you know, I don't personally enjoy living like right in the heart of Sydney. But when I went to visit him in the Northern Beaches, I'm like, man, this is beautiful. I didn't even know this part.

Mm.

the world existed, checked out home prices way more expensive than where we were, but I'm like, not that much. And so I go, so that year was tumultuous 2014. I said to my wife that I'm taking sabbatical, then I told her so that my practice she's like, what are you doing? You work two days a week? Why are you? NOISE And you earn good money? Like, why are you leaving? You know, why are you leaving? And I said to her, this is another important story. I always I said to her, I'm like, you didn't marry someone who would just do what's easy. And I said, you married someone who is going to be go after the things he wants to do. And I, I imagine, right. And so she, she agreed. And so she accepted the fact that I, I, you know, stopped working two days a week job. And, and then we, then I, they drawn around May after we sold the business, I went, do you want to move? NOISE And that's how it all started. I actually literally went a month holiday in, um, in Europe. I was speaking somewhere, I think probably in the UK and, uh, We sold our house and bought a house while we were on vacation. So we never even saw it. We bought a house sight unseen in Sydney. And the next thing we knew, we came back. I'll have to go to Bali to do my retreat. And next thing I knew I was back and I was moving the next week. So, and that was it. That was our move to Sydney.

Yeah. Well, you know, like I'm reminded of Helen Keller, who famously said, you know, life is a daring adventure or it's nothing. NOISE And, and I, I want to acknowledge that in you, but I also want to acknowledge Karen because that's, NOISE uh, until I actually heard that I realized just exactly how amazingly accommodating and supporting my beautiful wife, Patina has been as well too, because for them to say, I'm with you.

Yeah.

let's go is phenomenal. NOISE And you know, just when I hear it, you and I reflect it, I suddenly go, how amazingly NOISE loving and trusting does someone need to be to allow you to go, I want you to live your life fully and I will go wherever we will go, whatever that creates, whatever uncertainty we have to step into because I'm all in. And it's just.

Yeah.

I don't know, I get chills when I think about that because I can see how important that is, yeah, being true.

It's so important. Yeah, so I think anybody listening like it's not us. It's not like us driving the thing like, NOISE because without our supportive spouses, and who who's able to really have the courage to be able to say, yes, to do it with us, I think I'll probably still be in Toronto, to be honest. And it's it takes a partnership, you know, it takes a partnership. I always said, I would not be in the position I am in, in terms of being a world traveler or speaking around the world, if it wasn't for my wife's willingness to be a great mom, to be at home, to spend time with her kids. Because we, both of us want to make sure our kids are being taken care of. As long as we're not, she never created a personal brand, she never went into business. Because I don't know if that would have been what I wanted, if she wanted to have, just say she did have a pursuant. I don't know if I would have done the things that I've done because I would probably want to be at home with the kids to make sure they're taken care of so she can pursue it. So it's kind of like this combination and without her, I wouldn't be where I'm at for sure. And the same thing, you can say the same thing, but it is a combination. I literally said this to her last week, we were going for a walk and I said, I said, thank you. You know, I said, thank you for agreeing, like to take a chance on this. Like you didn't have to. But you did, like for us to be in, like we're talking about Portugal and I'm like, you didn't have to do this two years ago, but man, like our life has completely changed because you said yes. And I just, I said to her, I'm so thankful for you to be willing to take a chance and be willing to experience life because not many people would. And that is like such a, it's, and I know this, I know it's such a powerful moment.

Yeah.

for us, for to have our partners to be able to do the things they do.

Yeah, I totally get it. And there've been times where I've said the same thing. Thank you. And I'm sorry. Sorry, not because of what I'd done, but sorry for the turmoil and the tumultuousness that it sometimes creates when, you know, NOISE Bettina does like stability in certain things. And I upend that and I have to take ownership. And so I always say thank you. And I apologize that.

stability.

I, I, it's the nature in me and you allow me to indulge that. And as a process of that, that creates some NOISE uncertainty for you in the short term. NOISE So I totally, I'm just reflecting on that.

Yeah. NOISE And they know in the next few years something else is going to happen, right? So it's just expected now, right? So.

Yeah, NOISE yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. NOISE So, so as you mentioned earlier on about, you know, family and being, NOISE you I guess a focal focal point around your family. NOISE So tell me, you've got two kids. NOISE How has fatherhood shaped you?

Fatherhood NOISE made me realize that how inefficient and how unfocused and unproductive I was before I had kids. NOISE I truly remember this. I remember like you have so little time. Like my first few years with kids was hell. Like especially my daughter, first one. Oh my God, 18 months of just how I, for 18, for about 15 months. for a year, but yeah, maybe 18 months or so. She was gonna be the only child for sure. There's no way I was having a second child, because she was the worst sleeper in the world. NOISE It was like, it was bad. NOISE And... And I remember like somehow still like after a few years, I still was able to kind of create, you know, certain things that happened. I mean, I started the wellness guys literally the same year my son was born. And to look back and know what was I thinking? NOISE Right? And it's kind of weird that all of that happened. And like, what, like, you know, I'm just about to bark a second child and yet I'm going to go start something, a brand new thing that no one's ever heard of. And then. you know, we're gonna put some energy every single week to do a podcast, which was kind of weird back then. This is going back, you know, 13 years ago. So there's a lot of weird moments for sure. NOISE And, but I realized that it's not regret, but I always, I always thought though, Jim, it's like, if I could go back in time and just tell myself and go, if you just be disciplined and focused just for three years, like just for three years, and like, and just appreciate what you have right now. you'd be so much better off, you know? But obviously in hindsight, I can't do that. So that's one thing it's taught me. NOISE Two is I'm perpetually worried about...

Yeah. NOISE Okay.

You know, doing a poor job of being a father, because I know that no matter what I do, I'm gonna screw them up. No matter how well I do it, I'm always gonna screw them up somehow. If I do it one way, I'm gonna screw up the other way. If I do it this way, I'm gonna screw them up. So I know that in theory that all I can do, my theory on fatherhood is, or parenthood is, do the best you can to support them and give them every love you can possibly do to help them know that they're loved, number one. Two, to give them enough information and experience to help them learn to make better choices for themselves in the future. NOISE That's my goal. But I'm so scared of that because NOISE I don't know. And I think it's the unknown that makes it scary. And I know everybody's scared of that. NOISE But because there's so many factors that are outside of my control, It scares me. It scares me what society is becoming or how that will shape the future or how that will shape my kids. And that's something I have no control over. And I have no control over what decisions they're gonna make. I trust them, but I also know their kids. So which means they're gonna make decisions that I'm not gonna like. And that's okay. I'm okay with that. And I'm okay for them to fail, but I also wanna make sure that they don't fail in a way that it... I wanna make sure they fail. firm, meaning that they have another foundation to work from. What I would hate to see is they fail in a position where they can't pick themselves back up or because the ground just wasn't stable enough. And I do have these perpetual worries that I'm not pushing them enough or I do have these worries around not providing them enough NOISE resiliency or not providing enough pain or obstacles for them to kind of built up residencies for the future. Maybe I'm giving him too much of a cushy life. Those are certain things that definitely perpetuates my, I'm not saying I am doing that, NOISE but those are the worries I kind of think about a lot.

So do you mean like when John DeMartini talks about the support and challenge is trying to find that happy medium to NOISE develop, NOISE sort of resilient adults in the process of not making it too difficult or not making it too easy. Is that what you mean?

yeah. Yeah, so for example, like, you know, if I look back at my childhood, and we already talked about this earlier, like one of the things that, you know, the thread was me being put in a situation where I don't speak English and I'm lonely, like that, although I would never want that for my kid, but I also have to recognize that that was the thing that got me to where I am. So what are all the things that I'm trying to shield from him or her, like my daughter and my son, or trying to hide or try to comfort or try to navigate in circumvent? with, you know, our privilege, so they don't have to experience that pain. But then what am I robbing them of by doing so that goes by goes through my mind a lot, if that makes any sense, right?

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, NOISE totally get that because that's exactly right. It's about saying, how can I support and help keep the lesson while also at the same time, keep you safe? And it's that happy, happy medium of both where you need some exposure therapy. You need to exposure of difficult things, not to the point where it's going to overwhelm them and shatter their confidence, but there has to be an adaptation to those principles, to those situations so that they can develop that within themselves.

Yeah, so like a simple example would be, you when I was in grade seven or eight, you know, there was a guy who was, it wasn't so much of a bully, but he was like the Fonz. Like he was that kind of, like he was the, he fought everybody. When he was the guy, you don't know, you don't mess around. He was an Italian stallion and he's one of those guys who was like really strong, muscular. And you know, all the girls kind of liked him. He's just got this attitude, slick hair, you know, NOISE you know, rolled up jeans and everything else. And You know, there was definitely some bullying, right? When we were younger, just, you know, calling names, you know, the racist stuff, all that stuff. You know, back in the day, it was just what it is, right? But, you know, I remember getting into fights. Like I said, I was a pretty big nerd. Somehow I got into fights, got into situations, whether it be playing basketball and you just get into fights and, you know, you throw punches and stuff like that. Nowadays, if that happened to my kid, like the first thing, you know, we would do... Okay, which parents do I need to call? What principle? And this is not happening. And we talk, and I think back on like, you know, I'm not saying that that has happened to me, but I know that that's what my instinct was saying to do. But is that actually the right call? Right? Sometimes maybe the kids just need to figure it out, right? Because I'm robbing them of trying to like learn from each other that, hey, like you're gonna have to somehow coexist rather than parents coming in and trying to do hot.

Yeah.

you know, as a hawk to try to go, hey, this shouldn't happen. This shouldn't, you know, they shouldn't be saying these things. I don't know. That's the thing I'm wrestling with, right? And it's a tough call.

Yeah. Yeah, NOISE totally get that, totally get that. Where it's that balance of how do I keep them safe, but also how to prepare for life at the same time. It's a, it's a, you do. And sometimes you'll overstep the mark. Sometimes you'll mark it up. And I think what you said, no truer words were said that somewhere along the line, I'm paraphrasing what you just said before about do the best you can with the skills that you have, NOISE knowing that at some point, even though you tried your best, you might've got it wrong. And hopefully. you know, NOISE my kids now a little bit older, so I'm having these conversations where we can reflect back on that. And they can talk to me about the impact that they had over time. They may turn around and say, you know what, that was really tough. That impacted me. I'm really grateful you did that. But then you sometimes see what you thought was great had not the effect that you had. NOISE So it is. NOISE And there are many at times where I know I went to bed as a parent going, look, I hope I do a better job tomorrow. And that's just perpetuates that. So I totally get that. But thanks for speaking to that because it is, NOISE it's a unique gift and comes with a lot of responsibility and you don't always get it right. And that's an important thing. So, Lawrence, along the way, you've spoken about some important mentors and coaches and teachers you've had along the way. What do you think some of the, what are some of the things I should say that they've helped you learn, NOISE understand and find within yourself?

I think the most important mentors and people that, you know, the common theme of all of them was I was a kid who had pretty low self -esteem, in a sense. Like I said, you know, from a looks perspective, I didn't have anything. NOISE And, but I, but deep down inside, and this is a very distinctive, important distinction. even though I had like low self -esteem on my external looks, I knew I had value. I don't know where that comes from. I actually never thought about that, but I really had to figure out, I still don't know where that comes from, but there was something in me that believed that I deserve more. And so, give you an example. NOISE I remember around probably 14 or 15, people would like to hang out with me as a friend, but they would never over time, but I wouldn't be a person that they would invite me, oh, he's cool. Right? So like again, I'm outside the circle, but they did not that they would tolerate me. They would just go, he's a nice guy. Like he's, you know, we're definitely and people have that energy about me where they go, yeah, I can definitely see him in my circle, but there's not, they don't go out of my way to go like, I want to know that guy. Right? Cause I wasn't the Indian circle, but, NOISE and I always thought that, you know, when it comes to girls, when I, you know, when I'm attracted to girls, it's like, I would never, my standard is always like really high. I guess, you know, you know, I'll go, I'll be. Go after, I would try, I wouldn't go after it because I didn't have the self -confidence to do that, but I would like the girl that was almost impossible, right? It's like the girl that everybody wanted. NOISE And yet, NOISE deep inside, part of me also think about, there's no way, you have no chance. I wouldn't even go out with you if I was that girl, right? Just like, why would they? And so there was that part. But somehow something in me, and I don't know where I learned this from, but there was something like, but I know I can win one day. Like I may not be good looking enough to win over the best looking girl, but I know one day someone will see me for who I am and they'll love that. And I somehow just believe, I still remember thinking about this. I was probably 14, 15 years old. NOISE And that's sort of how I live my life. And so when you talk about mentors and coaches, NOISE it's somehow that belief in myself, again, I wish I know how well that came from. They helped me lean into the pit. and extract that out of me and to be more pronounced about it in public. And my wife, NOISE Karen, had a lot to do with that. I think when I met her at 21, I was still somewhat nerdy at that time, but she shaped me, she kind of, you know, clothed me better and she, you know, talked me through this. And I think I became, you know, better looking not because I was better looking, it was more because I became more of who I am. It's just like, you know, does that make sense? It's like, you know, you're,

Okay. Yeah, yeah, totally. Because this is beautiful. This is really good because I think I might have mentioned before and you've highlighted it perfectly. Brendan Bouchard always talks about this and I quote it many times for things to change in our lives. One of two things has to happen. Something has to come. NOISE Someone has to come into your life and something has to come out of you. What you have highlighted is both the journey and the self journey, the self love, the self growth, the self NOISE acceptance of, and also I love that it's like, you know, while the external may not have have mirrored what you're looking for internally, there was a reference, there was a belief, there was a thing that says I'm worthy of this, NOISE I deserve better, there's more to me. And to me, that's quite often the spark that makes everything possible, which then allows you to embrace it. Because I believe that had you not done that initial work, Karen may have come into your world and the part of you who may not have felt worthy of it may not have been able to receive that and to stay with this. So I think you've highlighted two really key points that are really important.

Yeah, and I forgot to say, like the reason why I told that story is because there was a moment I remember thinking to myself is that if I accept, like, well, just the external, I know this seems like so superficial, but if I accept the way I look and that's the best I got, that I had a two choices, either one, which is what I said was, I know I deserve better, so I'm gonna keep looking, going after the someone that I don't feel like I, from the physical point of view can match, or I can just lower my standards. And, And I remember distinctly in my head, it's like, I'm not lowering my standard and be willing to say, like, just give it time, you know, give it time. It turns out to be years, but give it time. NOISE And I think that's an important element because, you know, the story, because I feel like sometimes there's a voice inside your head and you got to learn to trust it. And I feel like it's really hard to trust that inner voice because there's so much external noise.

Yeah. Yeah.

you know, what social media tells you, especially nowadays, I'm so thankful. There was no social media back then. Like, I'm so thankful, you know, that we didn't have that noise to compare in the comparison. My God, that would have been way worse. But I had that, NOISE the will to be able to stay strong to truly who I am. And it just took time. Like it just took time for it to come out. And you know, NOISE although all of us wanted to be like, you know, the,

Damn.

the high school jocks say in high school and just be the, you everybody looked up to, but how many people that came out of high school that were popular that actually remained the cool, NOISE popular person beyond university and so on, right? I'm not saying there's none, but it's like old age story of like, they all kind of become the Al Bundy, right? Where, you know, with married with children, like they are like, their best moments was in high school.

Yep.

And they're now 60 years old and looking at that. I my best moment was that moment in high school. NOISE And it just took me longer. It took me into my twenties before I flourished and found my feet and I got the confidence that I needed to kind of go through. So I think a lot of my mentors along the way has either indirectly or directly helped me release that. But I can tell you, it took me a long, long time. I know it in theory, but it took me a long time to allow that to flourish and crack. And I would say, you know, publicly to say, I'm still in that journey. I'm still in that journey that I'm trying to discover who I truly am and being comfortable with my own skin. I definitely have been more and more comfortable now than I ever was, but that journey did not come like very quickly. It wasn't a, it wasn't a snap of the finger and change of moment. It wasn't any particular one person or one particular seminar. It was a transformation over time. The line that I love the best is that most people think that transformation personal development is like a flick on a switch.

Yep.

on the light switch. It's like on or off. No, it's more of a dial. It's almost dimmer. It's like you dim it up slowly and slowly and over time you get brighter and brighter over time. And this is over years. Some people go faster, some people go slower, I was happy to be a slow growth and slow burn.

And it's fascinating because you're right. Once you embark on a journey of personal growth and discovery, you can't not know it. It's very difficult. It's different to not know something, yet to know something and to ignore that is a totally different thing. So that's what I've always felt that when you embark on your own personal growth, NOISE it's an ongoing process. There's layers. There's next level and there's the next level and the next level. And... life reveals itself to you and you if you have embarked on this journey willingly, NOISE there's no end point. There's always a reset of rules and another distance and another scenario to test that. NOISE So I totally get why you basically say it's a work in progress because it is for all of us. There's no NOISE finality about that. It's an ongoing process, which I remember when I got my, when I did my coaching training and certification. They said the biggest coach job you will ever do will be on yourself. And so you learn these skills and tools and you apply them to yourself. So I'm curious and interested that when you're working with clients, do you quite often find specific themes show up with the clients that you're working with? And a lot of the times, are they also some of the things that you at that same time are working through as well? Have you ever had that scenario? NOISE

Never. NOISE Um, I know everything that, NOISE uh, and I don't need to work on myself at all. Um, yeah, I think, of course, I think, you know, as a coach, you know, or, you know, you, your tendency is that you're tend to get the coaching, um, to yourself sometimes because, or what I found is, is that, you know, the thing that I'm helping someone deal with is usually something I just, just dealt with.

Yeah. Yeah, NOISE yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I just happened to be just one step ahead. NOISE And it makes me look good because I'm like, oh yeah, this is how I would handle it. And it was like, that's because I did that last night. NOISE And I think that is true, but I think it's an energy thing really, because the reality is that we tend to, NOISE there's certain things that we all, I mean, I think every single person has to realize that all of us are dealing with similar circumstances.

Yeah. Yeah.

The context changes, obviously, just because of the different situation changes or how it's appeared, but the themes of it are pretty similar. And I think there's some influx of people going through the same things, hardship, overwhelm, all these things are happening at certain amounts of times. Um, and I think the frustrating thing sometimes, I remember talking to my coach about this, which was, I really struggled with this concept, which was, why am I having the same problems? Like I had, I just talked to you about this four months ago. Why am I feeling this way again? Like, how can I? And I had this conversation with you four months ago. I had this conversation with you eight months ago. I had this conversation with you three years ago. Like, why am I still dealing with this? I remember you, like, that's my frustration sometimes. And I realized that over time is that, ah, maybe it's not about, maybe that problem will always be there. Like, more my relationship with that thing is my kryptonite. You know what I mean? Like, we all have these kryptonite, like these things that kind of trigger you. And for me, maybe that's that. And that's something that instead of like feeling like I have to get rid of it, it's almost like solved. Everything is gone. You know, it's closed. I don't know if I believe that anymore. I feel like some, you know, I don't think that it's, it's how I, how, how I explained to my clients is that sometimes, you know, you get wounded, you know, just say it's a person or thing or an incident and that wound is deep. That's why it's so bloody painful. So it's like a knife wound. And what happens? Well, when the knife goes away and you learn to heal, it takes time. So you go through that healing process. But even after it heals, guess what? You got a big scar. So now every time you look at the scar, it reminds you of that incident. So it's like, it's triggering. And so I think that's what happens in these big moments in your life. And they keep on tricking you. And you don't know why you thought, I thought I dealt with it. I thought I went to therapy. I took drugs or whatever you did. Like, you know, like I thought I solved it, but then the scar is still there. So every time you look at the scar, it reminds you of it. But over time, the scar starts to fade a little bit, just a little bit. And over years it fades, but it never fully goes away. The scar's still there, right? But it fades over time. And I think that's how we handle situations, meaning that over time, it's just that you still get triggered, but if you do the work, NOISE your relationship and how it impacts you hopefully is the duration when it happens. Lesson extends itself, NOISE the frequency it happens, NOISE it starts to spread apart and the intensity of the incident or how it reminds you is lessened over time if you work on it. But it never fully goes away. Cause it's not like you ever forget about it. You know what I mean? Like let's think about all those negative moments or whatever. We don't forget about those moments. They're still there. It's just that they don't maybe affect you as much because you did the work to go through it. And so therefore they happen less and less. And that's when I realized, After a few years working with my coach, I realized, I'm like, oh yeah, you know what? Even though I'm having the same feelings, but you know what? They're not happening as often. Cause it, you know, now it was last time was four months ago, but I seem to remember like it wasn't too long ago where I was having this every two months. Right. And I was able to get out of it faster too. So.

Hmm. NOISE Yeah. Yeah, great. NOISE And you know, Lawrence, when we embarked on this journey, NOISE I think I remember having this conversation with you that people will have a perception of you and I about who we are and what we do based on some of our branding, which, you know, has really been geared towards a particular subset or a category. What has what has been profound for me is for people to hear that we still do our own work and you by sharing that. You were not basically saying, Hey, I don't have it all worked out just by basically being daring enough to say, what we saw with the art of imperfection does not mean we have low standards. What it basically means is that we are working through this as well. And we will get up, dress up and show up to be the best we can be. However, these are the things that we also have worked through too. And by sharing that it personalizes us, it makes the process for people easier. And they don't feel like I'm failing because I haven't got it all worked out. And I think that that's. That's some of the strongest and best feedback that I've gotten on a personal level about this project, which we've been NOISE working on is people to see that is to, how do you embrace and seek to be the best you can at the same time acknowledging that doesn't always go to plan and how do you grow and develop in there? So that's been the case. So you can be exceptionally well presented and dressed and have a wonderful haircut and all, but what endears you to people, I think is the fact that you are. paired to share that the wounds, the scars, the learnings so that people can hopefully take the learning and the message out of that and apply it to their world and their life.

Yeah, I think I learned over time that, you know, being authentic and mean, it means that you have to be vulnerable enough to be able to share the darkest parts about you or the, where your failures are and to, um, and it's also just being honest with people. The reality is that people are more attracted to the people that, you know, that are similar to them. And I'm like I said, you know, much you just said is like we're the same people as like, just like you and I, like, no one, everybody else, like we're no different. We might be in different circumstances, might have different lives, different experiences, but the reality is that we feel. I have a fundamental belief that it's not the experience that make, you don't need to compare your experiences with someone else's experience. Meaning like my story of loneliness, someone might go, yeah, but that's not loneliness. NOISE I was abandoned by both my parents and I was left as an orphan and NOISE I was raised by my uncle who abused me, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Yeah, if I compared the stories, of course, NOISE yours is worse. However, NOISE Right? However, does it mean that I didn't go through the same biological and emotional experience that you went through? It's hard to argue against that because the emotion is subjective to the person, right? Regardless of what environmental situation that puts you feeling that way. And so sometimes it's really important to recognize that just because it's trivial to you because of your hardship or your, you went through harder stuff, doesn't mean that person didn't go have the same

Yeah.

fundamental emotional biological experience of pain, whatever that may be, loss, anger, frustration, fear, loneliness, that you have had just because they were had a different experience, that brought it up. So I feel like having that type of philosophy and look on life, it's important to recognize.

Right. So before we wrap up and I'll give you an opportunity to just close out with anything you want to, or what's front of mind. I want to go through that rapid fire question experience that you went through last week as well too. So these are the first things I'm looking for first response, automatic responses for you. So I've given these ones some thought because I wanted to move me a little bit different, right? So, NOISE so, so, so you walk into a bookstore, what's the first section you walk to?

Uh oh, here we go, here's some fastballs. I'll guarantee you it will be business.

Yeah, I thought that might've been the case. Some of these I think I know. I'm looking to see ones that might surprise me. NOISE Okay. NOISE So when you were a little, when you were a kid, right? When you were in the process of not really knowing what you wanted to do, what did you wish you were going to be when you grew up?

Hmm. NOISE When I was a kid, hmm, I want to become a doctor. I wanted to do something that I want to help people with that's sort of and that reaction became a carburetor because I want to become a doctor, but I didn't want to give out drugs.

Yeah. Okay. Okay, nice, great, okay. NOISE Favorite superhero.

Batman.

Batman, me too man, NOISE like hands down, he's my favourite one. NOISE

Because NOISE he has no super power other than he has got money. He's a human being, just like me. Except for he's a billionaire and I'm not.

Yeah. And he's just, NOISE but other than that, we're identical and no one has seen you and Batman in the same room. So you never know. NOISE Yeah. Love it. Love it. Love it. So we're sorry. I've just had these, these BS conversations that I've had with everybody who indulges my love of that as well too. So thank you for indulging me with this one too. NOISE

Yeah. NOISE Exactly, and if you gave me a billion dollars, I might be Batman and I will go okay with it NOISE

So we've spoken before about your appreciation for fine food and I'm just, you know, I'm more of the guzzler type person, but what's your favorite cheat meal?

My favorite cheat meal? It would be probably something sweet. NOISE So like ice cream, gelato, or dessert, like a cake or something like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I saw a photo in your Facebook post yesterday. You've got some friends are visiting Portugal. I go, yeah, they're getting, NOISE they're getting the Portuguese welcoming committee. And I'm wondering, is this for you Lawrence or for them? But anyway, that was just, NOISE they're just willing participants in the story of your, your enjoyable cheat meal. So, okay, really cool. So I think I know this question, this answer, this one, but there are two types of people, people who love dress ups and people who hate dress ups. Which one are you?

Pasta donara. NOISE Absolutely. Both. NOISE Oh, absolutely hate it. Absolutely hate it. It's like my worst nightmare.

Okay. Yeah, NOISE I'm the same. I'm the same. I suffer.

I'm actually okay with it now. I indulge my family, my wife, because the kids love it. And I'm like, okay, fine. I'll suck it up for them. But until only a few years ago, I've been starting to do it just because they do it. And I don't want to be the dad who doesn't do it. But if I had a choice, I definitely don't like it.

Yeah. Yeah, I talk about that. NOISE Some of our events, we talk about this and it's because of the love of the people. NOISE Bettina, your family loves dress ups. And so for me, I do that for her and I can cycle through that. Whatever discomfort and pain that creates for me, I'm prepared to do that. Okay, so I thought I thought.

But having said that, I don't want to think too much about it, but having said that, I definitely don't dress up and be a sucker, but I dress up and I try to just embrace it. Like just honor it. And I feel like that's better when I do that.

Yeah. Yeah, same, same, same. Yeah, I'm the same. I like I'll go kicking and screaming up until the point that I put it on. And then from then I put on I'll go all right, you might as well enjoy yourself now because there's no turning back. Totally get that. NOISE You stumble across a genie bottle on the beach, you shine it up, and you get a genie come out. What's the one wish that you would have take if offered to you?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Give me 99 more NOISE wishes. NOISE Oh man, what would I wish for? NOISE

Okay, other than that, other than that, because that's the obvious one. So what's what's the one wish?

Man, I don't know. If it was personal, okay, I'll do it in different sections because that's the only way I can think of it right now, compartmentalize. NOISE I think it was for my family. I wish, you know, health and wellness for my kids and that they live a very productive life that create impact for other people. Like that's what I would love for them. NOISE If it was for me, NOISE I want to be able to die healthy. Like, well into my hundred. NOISE But I don't want to suffer. I want to be in a position where I have no regret. I want to have a life of where, and I know this is not really a wish, but it's sort of more just how I think about things. I want to be in a position where I get to experience things I want to experience, but I want to do it in a way that with dignity and health. And I want to be able to enjoy life for every experience that I want to, whatever it brings to me in the future.

Awesome, awesome. Now I promised you there'd be a hair question. NOISE So what's your favorite hair product, Lawrence?

Well, I only have one, which is I use American crew fiber. That's what I use. So it's, I've been using that for years and I kind of stick with it because it's the only one I use.

Okay. Okay. It's doing the goods, Lawrence. I'm just, I just thought it would be, it would be remiss of me not to ask a really high quality, um, journalistic question in that regard. NOISE Okay. NOISE The mat versus the shine. Okay. Got it. Got it. Yeah. I have that same conundrum that I think about reflect this all the time, you know, whenever, NOISE whenever we go.

I've been thinking about changing a little bit just to go from a doll instead of a shine. I don't know what the difference is, but I don't know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You have that dilemma, right? Yeah. NOISE You want the look, you don't want that shine. NOISE

Pretty much, I want that, yeah, that process. NOISE So, no, that's probably the high mark of our whole conversation now was what products do you actually use? NOISE So, it's been awesome and great getting a better understanding of you through this process, not only for me, but I guess for everybody else. NOISE And I found particularly after we did this, the introspection, and there's some things that I revealed to myself about myself through your questioning that I really appreciated. And that was the real gift. So I wanted to reciprocate that to you. So.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

So any final thoughts or comments that you want to leave our listeners with.

You know, I mean, I already talked about appreciation for you last, when we did yours. NOISE So, you know, I won't repeat that, but I think one of the most important thing is that appreciation for people who are actually have been on this journey with us or with me, and just for you to stick around. I mean, if you've been listening to an hour of our conversation is still here, NOISE then you know, you obviously NOISE have learned something or feel like compelled to want to continue to listen. So I really appreciate your time and your effort to be able to... stick with all these podcasts or all these, you know, videos that you watch from me. And, and, NOISE um, I love the encouragement, you know, I get feedback from people all the time. And I just want to say thank you because you know, my, when I got started in this, my only goal was to, I just really want to help people. I want to make an impact. I want to make sure my life meant something to certain people. And if one person's life was changed because I existed, I'll die a happy man. And so, you know, I'm really appreciative of any. small or large impact that I had on people's lives. I'm just thankful that I got to be able to do that. So that's all I have to say.

Awesome. NOISE Well, awesome. What a great way to finish off. So thank you so much for that. Thank you for allowing me to take you on a journey and yeah, I've thoroughly enjoyed not only this hour, but every podcast that we recorded today. So thank you.

It's been a pleasure. NOISE Always guys, as you know, this is the WabiSabi Podcast. We talk about everything that's about imperfection and we look forward to hearing from you guys about what this episode means to you. And, you know, hopefully you share this with someone else, but more importantly, be there for the next episode. Talk to you soon.