Who is Jim Karagiannis?

Welcome everybody. This is the Wabi Sabi podcast, the art of imperfection. And today we got a special doozy topic. Well, we actually don't have a topic. It's more of a different style. We've been doing this for over a year now. I can't remember exactly what number episode I should probably know that. But since we are recording this, NOISE I just thought I'd throw this out there to Jim and say, Jim, you know, I think people really need to get to know you. So we're going to do a dedicated podcast just on Jim.

Today we've got a special, cheesy topic. Or we actually don't have a topic. It's more of a style. We've been doing this for over a year now. since we are recording this. Okay.

And we've already heard a couple of backgrounds and little things about him, but I think, well, let's kind of maybe just get to know the co -host of the WabiSabi Podcast in the Art of Interfection. So let's kind of start with some of the basics, Jim. How tall are you? NOISE I'm gonna see you away and not just joking. NOISE

Thanks. NOISE Just some context for this, NOISE just for this, that's okay. Just for this context for this podcast too. So we came up with a topic and Lawrence suggested, I think we should just go through and let people get the better understanding of you. So we're going to do that. And I'm not going to give you any idea of any questions that's coming. NOISE So I don't know what Lawrence is going to ask me and this could go anywhere. We don't know. And we want to trial this as a... Q &A format because in future we may have a guest on here and we may use this as a catalyst in the test to see how it goes and whether we get engagement and feedback from other people for that. NOISE So, Lauren.

Oh, and also pre -framing that you're the thing is that yes, Jim doesn't know any of the questions that are coming. That's because I don't know what the questions are that are coming. They are literally just going to come out of my head, uh, as we go through this podcast. So that is why Jim does not know any of these questions that are coming. I don't even know. So we'll see how we go.

Yeah. NOISE Okay, okay, that's great, that's great. NOISE So here I was trying to pad things out for you and just give you a lifeline and you've thrown yourself under the bus, but that's okay.

Hey man, this is just the truth. You know, if this turns out to be a total disaster, then they know why right from the beginning. NOISE

Okay, so going back to your first question, NOISE 6 '3 in the odd scale, I never know what that converts to, but 6 '3 has been what my most recorded height was.

My god. Yeah. And I think it's important for people to know because, you know, on online, on YouTube, you know, you might see both of us, we're all kind of like, I'm kind of slightly taller right now. Uh, but that's a, but in real life, it's, uh, literally he is a giant to me. Uh, and I'm a midget. And so we were talking about expansion and contraction. I'm literally the contraction and he's the expansion. NOISE Cause, uh, he is super tall. NOISE

Yep. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Well, that was going to be one of the topics we talked about, but we went scrap it. Let's go Q &A.

Yeah, so listen, like, obviously we know a little bit, but I mean, let's do a quick summary for those people who are listening for the very first time. Tell us a little bit about your family, just a one minute synopsis of your family and where you met your wife and so on.

Okay, awesome. So I'm 55 years old. I've been happily married to my beautiful wife, Bettina for 30 years. We met in chiropractic school in 1989. NOISE We have two amazing sons, one who's nearly 28 and one who's 24. Our 28 year old lives in New York following a dream, just about to launch his hedge fund. And our youngest son is in London, NOISE 24 living the... ideal life for a young 24 year old in London who's living abroad.

Amazing. NOISE So let's share like, I love to hear more about because I actually don't know this, like your we heard a couple of stories that you shared in the past and past episodes about, you know, your childhood and stuff. But as overall, you know, what were what were you like as a kid, like before, you know, before 18? Like, what were you how to if I had to like, watch a movie about you and a synopsis about you as a child? Well, how you describe yourself?

Very interesting, great question. NOISE So I've always been a person who has been followed my own curiosity and going back to earliest recollections and memories when we lived in Australia, I was born in Australia and then we moved to Greece and lived in Greece for six years. So I was seven when I came back to Australia and I couldn't speak English and so I think we've highlighted along the way. the migrants journey. And that was a tough sort of a period where I was just trying to like, like anybody just fit into my environment and went through a lot of iterations of self. Am I this? Am I that? I tried to get clarity on, you know, where I fit in. NOISE My earliest, earliest, earliest recollections of being a kid when living in Greece was my mum was a dress designer. And yeah. And so she, used to make phenomenal clothes. She used to make all that clothes as kids. And I was, if you ever watch Family Ties, the show with Michael J Fox, yeah. And he was always dressed up in little suit and tie. Well, that was me. You know, I was going to kindergarten or preschool, like immaculately dressed, like immaculately dressed. And mum, I don't know whether she wanted, you know, to an outlet for her creative skills, but I'd be wearing three piece suits going to kindergarten.

Yes, Michael J. Fox. Uh oh. Hmm.

And yeah. And so to this day, people go, gee, you look very comfortable in a suit. Well, yeah, because back then that's all I had. So that was a reference for me and a very interesting thing. And I'll talk about this and I, and I, if I know you, I think you're going to latch onto this somewhere. Uh, when I was a kid, I, I had this outlet where I still love to sing of all things. And I used to get onto a bus, we'd get on a bus and I'd just start singing and.

Oh, wow.

Everybody loves a cute kid who sings. I would have been three, four, five, and I'm singing and people are just throwing money at me. Like it was phenomenal. Yeah. It was awesome. NOISE Yeah. Like money, not, not to shut up, but it was like, Hey man, this is really cool. Like just spontaneously I break into song and we lived in this apartment block in, in, in, um, in Greece where are every Easter in Easter tradition, what you go around and you sing carols, not Christmas carols, Easter carols, and, and, and, and, and, and also Christmas carols.

Oh, wow. Like actual money? Like we're talking, really? Wow. Yeah, right.

but you go around and you'd knock on a door and you'd say, look, do you want me to sing you a carol? And you'd sing and once again, like I was very industrious back then. It was very entrepreneurial. I'd rake it in as a three or four year old, NOISE but that was an amazing, I guess intuitive thing that came out of me. When we moved to Australia, it almost stopped overnight, right? It was like the bird or the canary whose song totally went. And my dad,

Wow.

despite all the hard things that he ever did, being a migrant, moving to South Africa as he did, not being able to speak the language, then try going back and come back to Australia, all the hardships that he endured. And he was a tough man, my dad, very, wasn't an overly emotional person, but he says the hardest thing, the hardest realization of what this movement was my kid never saying again. NOISE And, and yeah, and my dad who, you know, it's only two times. or three times in my life that I can recall my dad crying. One of them was telling that story. One of them was when his mum died and one of them when my mum was in hospital and she passed away. They're the three times in my life that I can ever remember my dad crying.

And when did your dad tell that story? How old were you at that point?

That's, I think, I think I probably would have been, I think about 40, 40, 40 years old, much, much later, much after, after we've had the, you know, we've moved and we've developed and, but I guess he was very reflective. And by that stage, you know, I had my own family and you know, we were, we already moved once or twice by that stage and he understood the difficulties that come.

Okay, so it's much later, much later. Yeah. Mmm.

and came with moves because you have to make tough decisions. And then, you know, he had to leave behind his family back in the old country. And it's not like today where, you know, you're in Portugal, I'm in Spain, we get on online and we can talk and it's like you're in the next room. They would occasionally, they'd have to just call up on a public phone box or a phone line. And it was like 50, $80 an hour, something ridiculous back then. NOISE So that. there was distance there. And so they wouldn't, that was like a luxury to talk to family members, you know, so that, that was, that was really hard for them. Yeah.

Right. Wow. I'll come back to that. But like, let's go back to your childhood. I mean, you were when you were three or four singing, like, do you remember those moments? Like, do you remember doing that? Okay. So if you do, like, what, what do you remember, like, what came through you? Like, did you enjoy that? You know, the attention? Or did you enjoy like the accolades? Or did you were you consciously aware of what was going on at that time?

Yep. Yep. Great question. NOISE I don't, it wasn't so much the accolades as such that I can think of. I just felt, it felt good to be able to express what was inside. That was, so it was like being connected and being true to self and using my voice as a means of creating change, whatever that was. NOISE And yeah, yeah, yeah. Because suddenly when I was doing this, I was bringing joy to people.

Mmm. Yeah, and probably seeing the people's expressions and how they reacted to you too. Yeah. Hmm.

And, and really that was, I think that was the thing I probably didn't admire. I didn't mind, I should say the validation by all means. And certainly there was a great reward in there as well too. So I linked, I don't know, I linked being true to self to ultimately getting a reward. And I think that was probably a big link that it made for me.

Yeah. Okay. And do you remember, like obviously your dad told this vivid story about you, you know, shutting down and no longer saying, like, do you remember that time of like not singing again? Or was it just more now in hindsight? Like, do you consciously remember that going, you made a decision that you changed and struggled and.

Yeah, I think that that that was, you know, I think it was from a I'm putting myself back to to that sort of moment in childhood and it created I had super confidence. I was it was like an overabundance of confidence. I was a highly energetic kid, you know, almost hyperkinetic in that regard. And that's why my parents channeled me to. all these sports is just tie the heck me the heck down. So I think there was that, but it was just the expression. NOISE But I think it honestly think that when I look back on it, it was like a, a shutdown. It was like a stress response. And I just shut down where I didn't, I was in a different environment and I just didn't have that urge, that feeling that that spark to do that was gone. And, um, I think as a, as an adult, like I, I don't, I, I don't have that desire. NOISE I think it's actually funny because I, to this day, every now and again, I will watch America or Australia's Got Talent. And I don't know whether it's the story of the person who rises up against a bunch of against sort of resistances or triumphs against adversity. I don't know whether it's that story that I love or it's the fact that someone.

Mm -hmm.

sang and expressed what was inside them to an audience. I don't know which one it is right now. I suspect that it's probably both. NOISE But yeah, that's, that's to this day that's.

Hmm. Well, how did that shape you? Like, how did that shape you? Like, you know, now, you know, how did it change the way you look at life, you know, as an adult looking back and go, I want to do something about that, or at least consciously or unconsciously.

Yeah, I think for the biggest, for the longest time, I think what it did was, NOISE see, back, had I, had I stayed back in Greece and follow that trajectory, it would have been, it would have been, probably would have gone more to an arts, to, to singing. I definitely believe that that would have been where that may have been. I would have followed that path and trajectory. What it did for me is it drew attention to me. And then I think what, for some reason, when I came to When we came to Australia, I got attention for all the wrong reasons. And so I went to school and I was the new kid and I was taller and bigger than everybody else. And how I got validation then was not so much from singing because I didn't know the language. It came through sports and unfortunately through fighting. NOISE That was that how that's how I got validation. So I think I substituted one form of validation for something else and different. NOISE And as a result of that, I think I didn't want to draw attention to myself. So. I stayed under the radar for the longest time. And so I started then, you know, achieving great things, but I just didn't want to make a song and dance about it and draw attention because attention meant argument back then. So I think that's the, you know, I've never probably linked it up like that until you asked me that question in that way, which is really interesting. But I think that that's what I subconsciously did. And it took me a long time to get out from under that radar. and just go, this is me, this is who I am, like me, dislike me, that's okay, but it's not about you, it's about me.

Hmm. And I imagine that took quite a long time to, to, I mean, you know, now that we talk about it, I know it's, you know, you kind of, it's kind of weird, right? Cause you reflecting back on your life, but imagine it took a long time to kind of not find that spark again, but to remove all that layer of, um, uh, bricks, you know, that you've put on yourself to kind of stay under.

Yeah. Yeah, because you don't know. I mean, in these formative years, and we've talked about it many times on our podcast, you're working yourself out. You're trying to work out where, who you are, where you fit in the world and all those kinds of things. NOISE And, you know, complicating that is if there's, if there's different environments, different countries, different cultures. And I see this a lot where kids, you know, there's a, there's family destabilization, there's a separation and the kids try and work out the new dynamic and, and some of it. parts of them shut down and parts of them just basically are suppressed. And I think that that's what happened for me. I do believe there was a, you know, it was a traumatic process for me at that age. And it's probably no different to a whole lot of other people in similar boats. But I think that's what it did for me and to me.

Hmm. You know, it's interesting. I had the same exact same story. I forgot that we actually had the same thing in common. Um, you know, but we'll talk about that in a later second where I came back to a country where I was born that I didn't speak the language, which is really weird. Uh, so you had the same thing, which is uncanny that we both have the same experience around the same age too. But you know, going back to that age group though, also too, I think I want to highlight to this point and not sure if this is true. I just look at the experience of my kids around that age. And I, you know, when I hear about the story, yes, it's probably like there was something traumatic that happened.

Yeah.

in a sense of not dramatic, like, is it bad as dramatic as it was a big change in your life, which was, you know, changing country, NOISE moving to a new, new, new environments, you know, new language. NOISE And, but I think it's also that time of around that age group, right between sort of like six to nine to 10 years old is, we're also trying to figure out like, you know, that's the age when I watch my kids is almost like, you know, there's that innocence, we all know about the kids, like, they just don't know anything different. That's why they can sing and they can just, do whatever and it's funny and it's, you know, it's amazing. And you just like, you, we just appreciate the innocence of a child at that time. But I think it's during those formative years around before 10, when you start to realize that there's a shift in them, whether you change or not, whether you are in the same neighborhood that you grew up in, there's always that change of like, I think there's have to self -awareness that, hmm, I shouldn't stand out so tall or I shouldn't do certain things, mostly because I think society has put, you know, certain.

Hmm. NOISE We shouldn't stand out so tall.

things about this is no longer cool, or this is no longer, you know, you don't want to stand out and get in trouble or, you know, you get good grades and your friends make fun of you, like you start becoming more aware of that, if that makes sense. And I wonder if the combination of that too, as well, not just because you moved.

get in trouble. Yep. Yeah, probably because I was, you know, I go back and I think about school. So I was very athletic and had a lot of physicality and physical sports, but I also, with a lot of the guys that I played sport with, it was one of those, you know, the jock and the, and the, the, the person who's, who's basically an academic. I actually had both. NOISE Yeah. NOISE No, no, I'm not shaming anybody, but.

Yeah, the nerd. You can call it. I was a nerd. NOISE

But yeah, like there's there were nerdy elements of what I did but I also coupled that with sport and it's funny what I did is in order to and I think that was the compensation that I made is that I got validation through sport and Quite quite a lot and also through my martial arts and all those kind of areas And so I don't know whether I tried to dumb myself down to to be more basically More like the jock so I kind of went down that path for a while while still and there was the enigma because I'm still getting great grades and

More like the drop. Yep.

And I'm still carrying on like a jerk and people just couldn't work it out. So it's like, who are you? You're either one or the other. I'm like, what can't it be both? What can I really? NOISE Yeah. NOISE Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, but you know what was really interesting too, that I attribute the smartness, you know, like I think out of all of, all of those things, it's, you know, when I looked at my brother, for example, my brother,

Yeah, you can't you don't fit into a box. You don't fit into the box. How can you be smart and also good in sports?

was a lot more intelligent, a lot quicker in the uptake. What I have is a dogged determination. And I remember, I might have mentioned to you, I'm not sure, but when I realized that I was so far behind in English and I couldn't, like I'd go home and my mom and dad didn't speak English either. So I didn't have a network to learn it. So I had to teach myself. NOISE And so effectively what I did, I'm not sure how you went through that Lawrence, but that's what I did. And I went through, to the library and I started borrowing books. And I just went, I'm going to start from the A and I'm going to go to Z. And I started, I go back, NOISE start reading books, books, books. And I'd come back one at a time, then five and then 10. And the librarian was phenomenal. She's a beautifully, you know how sometimes people come into your life and world and they see something and they direct you in another way. It's a role of a mentor, you know? And so this beautiful librarian, she would have been 60 at a time says,

Amazing.

Jim, I can see what you're doing. I can see your determination. I was determined to learn, right? I'd come home and even at five, six, seven, I'd spent hours and hours and hours and hours trying to read and finding and willing myself to do it. And so she came in and said, I can see what you're doing. You're studying the A's and that's great. But between A and Z, there's a whole lot of terrible books, you know, and not all of them are great. So I want to introduce you to selective literature. And that was the game changer. NOISE When I look back on that was the role of mentoring and guidance at critical times. So she introduced books to me that opened up my whole life and a whole worldview of everything. So she was amazing. And as it turned...

And you could have even quit, right? I mean, if you just went through the A's, like you probably would have quit about four or five books into it because you're like, this is stupid. This is dumb. NOISE

Yeah, yeah. But she would say, she'd say, what do you want to learn about? What do you want to find out? And I go, and so she would direct me to these books. And it was own over compensation to the point Lawrence went in year 12, the highest mark that I got was in English. Um, you know, I almost clocked a hundred percent in English and in Greek. And that were the two suburb subjects that I almost clocked, which actually rise the tide and allowed me to get into chiropractic.

Wow. Amazing. Wow.

So the weakness became the strength. Yeah. Younger. So my brother, Steve's four years younger and, but he was a lot quicker. You know, like if you looked at IQ, I would look at it and say, Steve's a lot quicker off the mark. NOISE And however, NOISE the distinction, distinction between the both of us is that basically I would, I had a relentlessness that just, you know, it might.

Wow, that's amazing. So was your brother older or younger? Yeah. Yeah. When did you discover that strength that you have with the ruggedness? Did you put it together at a younger age or did it just come together?

Uh, yeah, I think there's an interesting experience. So it can act as a superpower, but I've had to learn that it can also be an Achilles heel. So I had to, over time I've worked out and go, that will be really good up until the point where it doesn't. Um, there were always experiences that, um, that I can reflect on. The one that stands to mind the most is that when I was 13, I think I was 13 years old.

Hmm.

I love playing sports. I used to play, I used to go martial arts three, four times a week. NOISE I'd go and play soccer on, sorry, AFL football on a Saturday and soccer on a Sunday. And then I had the trainings in between. So I was like training, like, like a professional athlete as a 13, 14 year old. NOISE And when I was 13, NOISE we went to the soccer club and for some reason this coach didn't like me very much at all. And, and so effectively what. What happened is I did the whole preseason. We had 20 something games in a year. So this is under 14. I played the whole season and I didn't get one minute of game time for the whole year. NOISE Right. NOISE And the and in this day and age, you'd look at this and go, okay, everybody gets a trophy or everybody gets a prize, but I never missed a training session in the whole year. I never dropped. I never didn't turn up to the game. I would polish my shoes. and boots in the expectation that I'm going to play on a Sunday morning and the coach would never put me on. NOISE And, you know, even the parents were, it was embarrassing. It was embarrassing to the end where they would say, you know, you're not going to get game time. You know, you should quit. And I'm like, no, I'm going to see it through. I'm going to see it through. NOISE Not, not, not at all. And they were, and by my own, you know, like you can look at that and go, look, I was never going to represent the country. Let's, let's be upfront and honest about that. But I didn't even get.

Like they never literally put you in a game even for five minutes. Yeah. Yeah.

a minute of game time in a whole season. NOISE And like I said, everybody was saying, look, kid, you're not going to get a game. My dad was working seven days a week. He couldn't come in there. So I had to get myself to the games and play and basically just watch and then go home, rock up Tuesday and Thursday again next week. I did that for a whole year. And then when I left, NOISE you know, actually on the presentations of that,

Wow.

that day that, you know, everybody got acknowledged and I didn't all those kinds of things. And then I went to another club and I won MVP the next year. So it's not to say that I was representing the country. I wasn't as good as other players necessarily, but I wasn't as bad. And the fact that I, I used that fuel the subsequent year to actually channel it and, NOISE and get more out of myself. So I don't know whether there's a dog part of me that endures.

Wow.

and had to endure the hardness to then find a way to come back with more intention and veracity. NOISE So, yeah, that...

That's unheard of. Like that's really unheard of a coach not even playing a kid just like even for five minutes. I mean, I played ice hockey and you know, I wasn't great. I was on the third line, but I still got to play like, you know, I was a terrible player and, NOISE but it's a sort of, they still play you. And so I'm like, man, you were how old at that time? Wow. 13 to be able to enjoy. So you, you, you just, so what was going through your head to stick it through? Was it just to going, I'm going to show you at some point, or is it just.

Hmm. Yeah. 13 13 Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit of what we call FU energy that was coming through where there was, there was kind of like going, Hey, listen, you know what? I know what you're trying to do here. You're trying to break me. NOISE Um, plenty of tried before. NOISE And by that stage, I was already, um, training martial arts and had gone through, I had the discipline of that. I knew that I couldn't lash out. I couldn't, um, it was, so I'm, I'm schooled in the old traditional martial arts. And so even if, even if.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. So you had that discipline. Yeah. Yeah.

someone there's injustice, I will still go about that with honor. So that's ingrained in me. And I respect that even to this day, even to this day. NOISE So respect and honor and all those things are really important to me as character traits and values. But I think that that's what it was. And it was a case of you cannot break me because many have tried. Yeah, many have tried and they haven't done that.

Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Well, and that's the other thing that, you know, I've always admired about you because you do have that internal strength. You have that internal strength and the discipline that you will, you know, pursue anything and do it and stick it through, but also do with honor. And that's something that has definitely carried through since a young age. So that's why I wanted to dig deep into the younger age, because I knew there was something there that has, that has lived on for all these years, you know, and that's amazing to hear. So let's fast forward a little bit. You know, you met your beautiful wife and, you know, at chiropractic college, from memory. And so like, when did you know? Let's talk a little bit about love and relationship, right? So when did you know? NOISE And yeah, so let's go through that. Let's start there.

Great question. NOISE Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Love it. Um, so for me, yes, it was 1989. And when Bettina and I first started Chiropractic College and we started dating week 10 of first year. So within 10 weeks of starting this course 35 years ago, uh, we were dating and we've been together since, uh, aside from Bettina's amazing smile and her, her just, her ability to, um, connect with any, anybody at a, at a really, I guess, uh,

Hmm.

confidence sort of a way. She was the first woman that I never felt like I had to rescue. And what I mean by that is, you know how people are pleasers and there are rescuers. And so in the whole drama triangle process, I am a recovering rescuer. I used to seek validation when I talk, you know, there's the positive sides that you drew on earlier on about, Hey, that gave you a relentlessness. What it also did is that it gave the validation that I got out of that was to go, yeah, I'm tough.

Mmm.

I can do this. And so anytime I would rescue someone from a situation that gave me validation and that further solidified that identity of myself. NOISE Right. So, but what would happen is that I would then attract willing participants in the drama of gym in that situation where I get to play that out. So I was constantly rescuing friends, females, female friends, all those kinds of things. And it was the whole damsel in distress scenario. And what I realized it was a perpetuating. story in my life. And then I finally met someone who didn't need that, who was sovereign and centered and grounded in herself that I could go, Whoa, hang on, something's different here. But then also I actually felt a peace in myself. What I went, Oh, thank goodness. I can just relax. I can be myself, NOISE you know? So I could, I could, I could just, yeah. So honestly, that's what it was. And it was initially there was an element of exhaustion where I didn't realize what I was carrying. Right.

I could be rescued for once a little bit. NOISE

And I'll go back even further to make sense of that is because a lot of the conditioning that you mentioned about the formative years, seven year old, NOISE et cetera. My mom, I can trace that back to where they came from because my mom is a woman from Sparta in Greece. And if you've ever watched the movie 300, they say Spartan women give birth to Spartan men. NOISE So my mom would, and the most impressionable stages in my life, she was grooming how I would be.

Right. Yeah.

as a man. And so she would, you know, tell me this is how you're going to take care of this. How you present like when I talk about, you know, dress sense and presentation that a lot of that came from my mom. And she also would say that you need to ensure you know, you look after your brother, you look after your partner, who it is. And so you're and so that's in my mind, the conditioning she to basically sort of downloaded into me was that's what the model of a man was.

interesting.

And so that's where I trace that all back.

Okay, and then so was it something that you guys, like when did you know that she's the one, was it early on or did it take some time?

I definitely think one of my friends, NOISE one of my greatest friends, a friend called Errol, I was living with at the time. NOISE I remember Bertine and I got together on that first night and went home and I said, look, Bertine and I started dating. I don't know how long it'll last, dude. I really don't know. Up until that point, I hadn't had much success and luck in that regard. NOISE I basically, the most I'd ever dated anybody was two weeks. And I think it was because I just had a really high standard for myself, but then also of the person. And I think I was putting a lot of pressure on him. And I think because I was rescuing and when I realized I'd rescue, I'd go, ah, okay, you've done this again. So I think that something, a shift happened in me when I realized this is different. This is a lot different than before. And I think that... In very early on, but there, I had this understanding. I think you mentioned in a previous podcast where, you know, you and Karen would not go to sleep unless you'd have resolution. NOISE Well, but then I had this rule that, you know, foundationally as a principal, it had to be about us. And that was, if there was one thing that I had to be able to rely on was honesty and us as a unit. And there were times where we would have a disagreement and we'd have an exam on the next day. And I remember one, I had a. chiropractic physics exam the next day that Batumi and I had and something had come up and we were having a bit of an argument and it was like we really should be studying. Batumi goes, no, we're actually going to resolve this. And I went, okay, so I could let go of the outcome of an exam knowing that what was right in front of me was the most important thing. And we, you know, after hours of arguing, we went, right, we can study now. Bettina passed that exam, I failed it and I had to resit it over summer. So I've never forgiven her to this day. But I knew then that these were the things that I, they were worth fighting for. It wasn't just a trivial argument. It was like, I'm, you know, you know, the old saying, I'm not a, I'm a lover, not a fighter. Well, I think you've got to be both because if, unless you actually are willing to fight for something, it doesn't mean enough to you. That's my view. So.

Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially love. Especially love.

especially love. And this is samurai, the samurai, the contrast of the both is that a lot of the times they thought that they were just savages and yet they didn't. They had this harmony and duality of love and the warrior and the lover. And it's because they could have that juxtaposition of both, they actually found this honor in all of those. So I think that that's a reference that I've modeled on.

Yeah, an honor. Yeah. Yeah. And they also have like these rules and they had like respect for the rules and uh, like after you, but it's like, there was a code, uh, you know, that you live by and you honor by it. No one has to hold you accountable other than your honor and your legacy. And so they live by this code, which is, I just find it fascinating. NOISE So, um, just switching gears a little bit here. If we had to reflect on your 55 years of life and like, what, what are you most proud of?

The Bushido code, yeah. Yep. Yeah. What am I most proud of? NOISE I'm most proud of, NOISE there's two parts of myself and others. That's really, that's it. I'm gonna start with others. I'm proud of having a family that are people who are committed to being the best version of themselves. I love that. I love that my wife.

Hmm.

Bettina right now is in the UK. She's doing a five day water fast as a retreat. She said, that's what I want for my birthday. I went, you don't want me to take you out to dinner? No, I want to go out and go for a water fast. NOISE So that's kind of, yeah. Yeah. So that, NOISE yeah, that's it. She said, do you want to come? I went, nope. NOISE So, so, so that's, I'm super proud of them and I'm super proud of the men that my sons have grown into. NOISE So that's, that's without doubt the biggest.

That's kind of your meal, man, like that water fast.

accomplishment and achievement that I've had in my life is that the relationship with Bettina and my two sons. NOISE So in and of myself, NOISE I think what I'm, I guess I'm most proud of is the fact that I'm prepared to keep growing. I'm prepared to keep self -examining in the pursuit of being the best version of myself, wherever that takes me, whatever obstacles that brings up for me, I'm prepared to do that. Um, NOISE and it's not that it's easy. It's not that I'm picking the path that's, that's the least traveled. It's just the one that feels the right one. And I've, I think that's what I'm most proud of is I've never settled. NOISE I've always pursued what I know I really want and need to do. And I've had to embrace whatever challenges come up in the pursuit of that.

Hmm. Okay. That's great. That's great. And is there, is there a moment in your life that if you could have a time machine to go back to and wish you could change that one thing, is there a moment and what would that be?

Cool.

We ask the tough questions here on this podcast.

You know, NOISE it is, it's a great one. Look, NOISE most times when people look at that, you know, when they reflect on their life, they look at the things that they quite often didn't do. You know, in the regrets of the dying, NOISE they talk about the regrets that people have in their life. Now, the gift that I had is that I got to be with my mom and dad and... NOISE

Hmm.

you know, in the lead up to them passing away. And that was the greatest gift that I ever had was to actually thank them for my life. And that was a really powerful moment. So I'm super, super grateful for that. I never knew my grandads. I never met them. They both passed away beforehand. So if I could. The whole process of, you know, regrets is it they have all these decisions have led me to where I am right now. So I embraced that and acknowledged all the good, bad, challenging, hard mistakes that I've made, all that I'll embrace those. NOISE I just wish I could have taken a time travel back to, to meet my grandparents, my granddad's, particularly my, my, my mom's dad, who I'm named after. And I understand I had very similar characteristics and traits. I would have loved to have met him. Uh, but I am clear that the spirit of him lives on in me and that. had to be okay. But that's really what I wish I would have had, just some quality time with a grandparent.

Okay. Um, talking about, you know, uh, mortality and you know, I'm sort of hitting, I hit 49 and then, you know, getting close to 50. I, this has popped up a lot, just unconsequentially for, for me. And just wondering if you ever think about mortality.

Yeah, you know, NOISE I do. NOISE And interestingly, when I was turning 50, NOISE you know, when I talked about my grandfather, NOISE his name also was Jim Dimitri, which is what I'm named after him. And he died at 50. Right. NOISE And what a very interesting thing. And I'm not sure if I've shared this with you, Lawrence, even just off recording.

Hmm. Hmm.

But when I was leaning up into 50 and progressing into it, I started getting really, I wouldn't say frenetic, but I started to get a whole lot of, tried to organize and get everything in order. You know, finances, make sure the kids were safe. Have I ever told you this? No, okay. Okay. So I was trying to get everything in order into a house. You know, like, great, okay, we've got money, we've got this, I've got that, I've got that.

Mmm. No.

And I was getting more and more agitated and I couldn't work out why. And I went to a seminar, a series of seminars in a row. One, I went to a retreat and it was a five day retreat. And I did this meditation and interestingly, it took me, it was kind of like a timeline. It took me back through the ages. It's gonna sound really surreal and out there, please go with me. NOISE But effectively what I do is I was actually able to travel back through time in my dream back to the battlefields in Sparta. So I could actually get where I was from. I went back that far through my genetic code. And as I was coming back, I got to meet my grandfather, right? Just in a split moment. So I recognized him. And then when I came back, I realized, okay, NOISE something's amiss here because I can't see past 50.

Mm -hmm. Amazing. Mm -hmm.

And what was happening is pretend it would say, okay, what are we going to do here? And I go, I don't know. Because ordinarily when I vision, I've got a very strong capacity to get an idea. So the moment I had an idea, I get an idea. I can go straight to end point almost in a nanosecond, NOISE but beyond that 50, I just couldn't do it. It was like black and I couldn't work out what was going on. And so, uh, as I was trying to focus on it, I couldn't pass, I couldn't get to 50, couldn't get to 50, couldn't pass 50, couldn't work out what was going on. So when they had some hypnosis done and we uncovered that I had fused the messages that I heard my whole life. You're like your grandfather, you're named after him, he died at 50. NOISE Your grandfather died at 50, 50, 50. And so I subconsciously took on that as a narrative, right? Where I believed that, you know how in the Australian culture, the Aborigines, you point the bone and you pass away. I actually had...

Mmm. All right. Yeah.

convinced myself subconsciously that that was what was going to happen. NOISE And so I went to, and then a week, a week after this retreat, I went and watched Bruce Lipton speak, listen to him speak. And Bruce Lipton, if you don't know him, writes a book called The Biology of the Belief. It's phenomenal about that. And, and what he talked about is that you can create, and along the lines of Joe Dispenso, you can create your reality based on your thoughts and all those kinds of things, both good and bad.

now.

And it suddenly hit me that I was actually creating this environment. And because I was so mentally strong, so that fortitude, NOISE that resilience that you talked about, it's got a dark side. I was so determined, so clear, like I'd convinced myself that was what was going to happen. NOISE That honestly, I can look back and go, that changed my life. That saved my life because I actually then took on board and go, that doesn't have to be the case.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it was, it was not even conscious. It was subconscious. So I took that, that thought process out and I started remapping it and I started, um, basically disentangling the story that I was telling myself about it. And fundamentally five years later, here I am, but I am a hundred percent convinced that had I not uncovered that knowing how mentally strong I feel like I am, I would have whirled something and I probably could have whirled a reality that, um,

Yeah.

subconsciously was there and I wouldn't have known it unless I had done those two things within two weeks. The retreat and then yeah, yeah. So that's where something really powerful can also work against you but then also if you manage a way to harness the power and the skill of what it is that you do, you can use it for good. And I think that that's what I did. And ultimately I do think it changed my life. NOISE So that's when I thought about mortality. NOISE And it was...

That's fascinating, man. That's fascinating. That's. Yeah. Hmm.

there was the part where I felt that there was still more to give. NOISE And yeah, I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to be around to, you know, see my kids grow and that kind of thing. That was really hard. And then after that, then subsequently within a short period of time, within months, my mom passed away and within a year later, my dad passed away. NOISE So I then got to a realization where, NOISE okay, you're now, you're the surviving air, so to speak.

Hmm.

And there's this, you look around and there's something that happens for you. I think as you grow and you mature, you become an adult. But then when your parents go, NOISE you know, I've heard this about with orphans, but when your parents go, you suddenly go, it's on me now. And there's a level of, I don't know whether it's responsibility or life plan that unfolds. And that to me was, NOISE okay, great. What now you're going to do with the legacy? So you have no regrets. NOISE And so they're, they're. So I have thought about it. I think about it less now than I did five years ago, but I think that was fear -based subconscious. Whereas now it's more like, I just want to make sure I get the most out of every day.

Interesting. And you're only halfway dude. Right. So, uh, a hundred is a new 50. I think that's the moral of the story. Right. Um, but yeah. Okay. Cool. Um, so moving forward into your future, um, you know, w what is, how do you want the next say 10 years to unfold? Like what's the direction of what are you focused on? What are you most excited about in the next?

Alright, that's it. It is, it is, that's what I've heard. Yeah.

maybe 10 years a bit too far sometimes I knowing you you probably already have a mapped out a 30 year plan. But let's just talk about five 10 years. NOISE Like what are you most excited about discovering or doing?

Yeah. NOISE Yeah, so from a family perspective, NOISE we will be revisiting our role and our location in Europe. NOISE We're loving where we are right now, but that may change. NOISE And so I'm always open to it. Yeah, I know you've said that. I sent you, remember you said that link I sent you the other day about, hey, here's this retreat location, Lawrence. We should be running one in this magnificent place in Portugal. So.

Watch more. Yes, I did. Yeah. NOISE

Yeah, you've been consistent. I'll give you that from day one. It's like, hey, come to Portugal. So, um,

I, uh, listen, you know, I just, I just got one name who it is, but I just been, uh, just texting just right before we got on this podcast. Someone we both know. And, NOISE uh, you know, they're interested in coming to Portugal. So yeah, I'll tell you after.

Ooh, well, I'll find it afterwards, yeah, so we don't break that out. So that's the part of it. So it's being clear, I'm super excited about the next five years and 10 years for my boys. NOISE They're in a really wonderful, great place and it's fascinating. NOISE Whether they have kids of their own in the next little while, I don't know, Bettina would love them too. NOISE But there'll be something magical about. the next iteration of life and watching our kids, kids. NOISE And just seeing that, I think that's a very, you talk to grandparents as I do regularly and they quite often say it's just magical, magical to see that. NOISE So I'm a lot more comfortable in my skin. I've gotten to the point where I've been able to, whether it's through the attrition of energy and time.

Mm.

I've been able to let go of a whole lot of that excessive burn of energy. So I'm more interested in progress rather than just activity for activity sake. NOISE Unless things were moving at a hyper kinetic warp speed before I didn't feel fulfilled, but I've gotten to a really comfortable place in my life where I'm intentional in terms of where I put my time, energy, effort and money. NOISE So anywhere you see me putting energy or popping up, it's because it's intentional. I think that's the case. There are projects that I'm working on that are congruent with those kind of things. NOISE I'm probably going to say more no's than yes's to things because invitations and opportunities show up and there's a saying in the business world that the opportunity of a lifetime comes around twice a week. And I've learnt a lot through the disabled pursuit of saying no. Opens me up to saying more yes's to me and what is important to me. So, There will be business directions. There will be events. There will be possible moves. There will be a whole lot of things, but it's going to be on my terms. And I think I'm really happy and comfortable with that. NOISE I've, I'm less worried about, you know, beforehand it was the, I don't care what you think, which is probably more FU energy. Whereas now I've gotten to a lot more of a piece to go. I actually really wish you well, but that's not me anymore. Or I don't want that. So I think that whether that's through.

Mm.

maturity, whether it's come through peace, I don't know what it is, but I think you'll see more of that.

What do you think, what worries you the most about the future? It could be something personal, could be something about the world, you know, society, NOISE like is there anything that worries you in the next, you know, the near future?

Yeah, look, NOISE I think that humanity, I do study history a lot and I look at most innovation happens when there are challenges and conflicts. And so when things are going well and in going in great times, you know, people aren't inspired to change things. So they get a level of complacency, apathy, and you don't see innovation and change to the same level. NOISE And

Hmm.

So what worries me is when people don't have an awareness around what's going on for them at that time. And sometimes like the boiling frog, the temperature may be rising, but you're in a comfort zone where you don't even realize that the changing landscape is there. NOISE So, you know, a lot of people I know are worried about AI and innovation. And I think it's because they're the ones who are trying to preserve the status quo and either. not reading the room and not reading what's going on. So I'm less worried about that because I think that with change, there'll be innovation and there'll be whole fields that opened up that we haven't even considered right now. So we can only see them based on our current perspective and reality. NOISE Within the next few years, things will change and evolve. And I think that's what I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted to be either, if not at the forefront, but at least aware of what's going on. so I can make considered decisions. NOISE So I'm less scared about that. NOISE I'm just, NOISE my greatest fear is not living to my potential. NOISE And I remember doing a course years ago with a guy called Ben Harvey in Australia who talks about one of, they used to think guilt and shame were the vibrations or the energies that are the hardest, the hardest emotions to deal with in life. And he came, he talked about one other one, which was, what's called untransmuted grandiosity, which is the failure to live up to your potential. And I think that that is probably my greatest fear is that there are times in my life where, you know, pivotal moments and times where had I turned left instead of right, I would have been dead. NOISE And to me, I want to make sure that that turned to the right. There was a reason why I did that. And that's the bigger grander. scheme and vision of my life that I go, okay, there's a purpose here. What's as the Greeks say, the tele -ops, what's the end point? What are you working towards? What are you hoping to do? And not living to that and not living to the capacity that I can because of the gift of life that I was given. I think that's probably what scares me the most.

So interesting. We're very similar in that manner. And I think that we all, I think the difference between you and others, you know, this is just my observation is that, you know, people will feel the same way, but you, you're intentional to actually make sure that that doesn't happen. So.

Yeah, I think we both are Lawrence. I think we both, you know, I have, I think the whole Instagram's view of the world where people celebrate the front of stage and they don't let you know the back of stage. I think that creates conflict for people. NOISE As much as possible, I try to let you know of the soft underbelly and what's going on. NOISE And, but I will do things even though I'm terrified. Even though I'm scared of it, it doesn't mean that I don't feel fear and doubt and uncertainty like everybody else. Of course I do. I've learned to override those. I've learned to act in spite of those. I learned to act greater than those to ultimately keep moving forward. That's it. That's probably the difference is just motion and movement forward as opposed to saying stagnant.

Cool. So let's end this podcast with thank you for sharing and thanks for opening up and being vulnerable to some of these questions. I know again, you were privy to it and you can just see you're a master and skillful to be able to be honest and just answer that from the heart. So it's great to see you. I want to just give you some softball questions now just to kind of end this podcast. Yeah, just some easy ones, right? So, you know, Jim and I went to Madrid about a year ago, actually just over a year ago. And, and I, I said, Hey, do you want to come to this Japanese restaurant with me? And.

Softball questions. NOISE

He's like, I really don't care about food. And I'm like, my God, all right, all right. So that's when I found out about Jim. Like he literally just doesn't care. He just wants to eat. It's food, he cares, but he doesn't really care what kind, whether it's, you know, so he just indulged me to just enjoy this beautiful 10 course meal that we had together. And I knew that he was just faking it when he said, oh, this Wagyu piece is really tastes delicious. But he just like, it's just beef, man. NOISE

Heheheheh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wolfed it down. So you know how, and I want to acknowledge you, Lawrence, because you're a foodie and I'm an eatie. I'll just eat. NOISE Bettina is an amazing chef. She comes from two chefs in the family. Amazing. And she's going, you are just my talent and my family's talent and is wasted. NOISE So honestly, the best part of that experience, Lawrence, is spending it with you. Honestly.

Yeah. NOISE Wasted. NOISE This goes in. Thanks, man.

That's what it was. NOISE And, you know, and it was great that you got to eat something that you wanted to, and we got to hang out. That was it for me. That's, that's simple in that regard.

Yeah, that was. So on that tone, like what is your favorite meal or dish or cuisine if you had to choose one?

If I was on death row and I was about to go to the gala, it's spaghetti marinara. Love it, love it. Spaghetti marinara.

Right. Okay, interesting. All right. Of course. All right. So who what is your favorite sport to play?

My favorite sport to play these days now is Jiu Jitsu. NOISE My favorite sport to watch is English Premier League.

Okay, what's the favorite sport to watch? Okay, who is the most most inspirational or inspirational person to you in life?

the most inspirational persons in the world. Historically, NOISE I, Martin Luther King for me. Favorite book? Favorite book? NOISE I would say, yeah, I would say, NOISE

Okay. Favorite book or books, top three, if you can't think of one.

I'm gonna come back to this one. Ask me another question because I can't, I can't, I can't narrow it to three. NOISE Gladiator.

Okay, sure. Favorite movie. Nice. Mine too. NOISE So favorite TV show or TV shows that you love to watch.

Heheheheh Anything, I love spy movies. NOISE So the Jason Bourne type, NOISE Batman, Siri, just anything that's, there's the, yeah, there's spy actions. NOISE So the, yeah.

Hmm. Okay, fantastic. NOISE Any, do you play board games?

Board games, one of my favourite games, I loved Monopoly, played that incessantly as a kid and then progressed to Robert Kiyosaki's Cash Flow game when I was old. So that's probably my favourite game.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Uh, favorite actor or author.

Denzel Washington, he'd be my favorite actor. Love Denzel.

Okay. Excellent. NOISE All right. Well, listen, I think that gives us a good well rounded aspect of you, the deep, you know, insightful gym, but also just, you know, we, I think we can learn a lot from what people favorite movies and books are because it gives them an angle of the type of personality that they ascribe to. So is there any lasting or parting words that you want to share with our audience?

No Lawrence, I had fun. I didn't know where this was going to go. NOISE And I guess, look, the thing is that, you know, when we first started this project, NOISE we're really clear that the people have a perspective of you and I because of our professional persona and our branding. And that's always been deliberate and intentional. NOISE

Needs dry. NOISE

What I think has come out of this experience, and that's consistently the feedback that I get from people about both of us in this, is that we are authentically communicating information. We don't hide the challenges that we face. It's not about, look at me, look how great I am. It's about, hey, I'm stumbling through this as well. We have high expectations of ourselves and high standard of ourselves, and we don't ever want that to be mistaken for we're flippant or haphazard. However, this... Project and even this podcast episode today gives people a perspective on who we're like behind the front of stage because anybody who's seen you speak and and keynote knows You bring the a game. They don't get to see this side of you or me regularly and I think that's endeared People to us in that area because they've been able to go hey They're actually human just like me and I think that that's what I've really enjoyed in this whole project from day one when we started With all the technical problems we started with from the outset and all the challenges, we've stayed true to why we're doing what we're doing. And that's what I'm most proud of in what we do together.

Well, thank you. And this wouldn't be the art of perfection, imperfection, sorry, wabi -sabi if we didn't have technical difficulties to begin, you know, our, and this is not the first podcast, first rodeo that I ever had with technical difficulties in the first, you know, a few episodes in the first year. So, uh, this, Jim, it's, it was great to get to know you a bit better. I hope the audience gets to know you in a deeper level and I think you're sharing and enduring that authenticity, you know, through that period of time to really create the authenticity that people, I think you'll feel would.

Yeah, that's it. That's it. NOISE

resonate with. I think that's really good to kind of know who you really are and the man that I know and that I am really honored to be on this podcast with because I think that you should be proud of everything you have accomplished and continue to be proud of the journey that you're going to be experiencing because man, I look up to you. You're a person that has really challenged me on certain things to really think through to be a better person. So I really Honored to be as a co -host with you and thanks for agreeing to do this. And this has been fun and journey and we'll continue to do this of course but I just wanted to make sure that you heard that loud and clear. So guys.

Thanks, Lawrence. I appreciate that. And you know what? I will gladly return the favor at some stage. NOISE No, no, it's returned. So if you ever played tennis, you can't serve and not expect the ball to come back at you. True. NOISE True. You've aced it. You've aced it.

Yeah, no, this is just the one -off thing. It's only to you, not me. NOISE Not if you ace it. Not if you ace it. NOISE Guys, this is the Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection podcast. I hope that you enjoyed this episode and continue listening to this other ones and please share this podcast with others so that they can learn more about the life of imperfection. I'll take care. Enjoy the next one. Take care. See ya. Bye.