Avoiding and Navigating Burnout

All right, welcome to another edition of Wabi Sabi. Got a big question for you, Jim. Have you ever experienced burnout?

Right shoot, lads. Have I ever experienced, have I, yeah, multiple times, actually, I have, I've definitely felt, yeah, I have felt burned out. And I think it's not unusual for people who are ambitious, who try different things, who try and scale mountains sometimes without necessarily thinking about the plan first. It's not unusual in the entrepreneur space, for example, it's very common. So short answer, yes, Lawrence, what about you?

multiple times. Wow. Okay. Yeah, definitely. I definitely have a couple of times as well. You know, like there's definitely moments of burnout. I remember the very last burnout I ever had was during COVID. I remember, you know, I got to this point where I thought I could handle it in terms of the lockdowns and, and just being, you know, secluded. I'm like, I'll arrive through this. But, you know, after a few weeks, I really felt myself just being closed in my minds, my set was closed in, I can feel it. Everything was just

Yeah.

not going right and I knew I had to, to do, do something. And this is probably, you know, we're talking about a year, year and a half into COVID, because in Australia was a little bit different when we were going through it. I mean, we didn't experience the, the harsh realities. We did the harsh reality of business, but from a, from a freedom perspective, that wasn't until much later in the process. So I think there was the fatigue of like the business side of things, but there's also the fatigue of, you know, then they added lockdowns and all that stuff. And I remember really being in a position going, okay, we'd something has to shift. So let's talk about that burnout. Like, what do you think? What is some I'm sure everybody who has been in the game long enough, would have experienced some sort of burnout or come close to it? What do you think some of the what are some of the symptoms of burnout? What would you maybe start with that? Because some people might not acknowledge they have burnout.

Yeah, I think there's an element of you feel infallible and you can just keep going, going without recharging your batteries. And recharging your batteries can mean physically, emotionally, mentally, and you're effectively making basically withdrawals out of an account that's going into overdraft energetically, so to speak. So to me, I think that that's a very broad, all-encompassing perspective that you can look at from multiple ways. But to me, Fundamentally, burnout is going beyond what your sustainable levels of capacity can maintain for a period of time.

How does it show up? How did it show up for you? Like, what were some of the things that you recognize that did you realize it right away? Or did it take a little while to recognize like, Oh, man, I'm not in a position.

Well, yeah, look, so there's different, and you know what's interesting you said about, um, about COVID and the period of lockdown, I definitely feel like experienced that as well. It was a drawn out process. I think I channeled it. I'll go back to strategies, you know, in a moment, but that was definitely, I could definitely understand what you're talking about. There was the lockdown fatigue that came through with that. I think for me, it was, I liken it to when I, when I was I ran a marathon and they talk about hitting the wall when you're running a marathon where no matter what you do, you feel like you hit a wall and you can't push through it. And for someone like myself who that was a strategy, it was like, if I come up against the resistance, I'm going to take a longer run up and smash through it. I finally got to a wall that I couldn't smash through and I could not, it's almost like I couldn't lift myself physically. My brain.

Hmm. Interesting.

was felt disconnected to my body. And I just didn't feel like I had any connection to my internal capacity to keep going. That's what burnout felt like to me.

Right. Okay. Yeah. I think for me, like the burnout, I can feel it where I start losing motivation for things. Um, you know, the day to day that, you know, the movements, uh, the, you know, the work, um, just no longer were fun. And if anything, I started getting irritated, frustrated, uh, with the things I normally wouldn't have. Um, you know, I remember one time I was being in practice and I always said that, you know, if I ever felt the way they were.

Yeah.

I wasn't having fun in practice or is getting annoyed with patients. Um, you know, too often, I mean, we can know patients all the time, but when it just kept on like every single person or every single person who said something and it was irritating you, that's when I realized I'm like, okay, there's something going off here, something's not, something's not right. And those are the major symptoms that for me, recognizing that I'm probably either gone through a process or I'm fatigued without actually realizing it.

Yeah, I think same actually. I, as you said that it took me back two times and episodes where he basically in the formal life when I was practicing, I would get to the point of burnt out being burnt out. And I was the same. Normally I wouldn't be irritated by things and suddenly little things or habits or behaviors of other people were really starting to get to me. And I knew it wasn't them. It was me. And I'd gone too long without recharging my batteries. And if I, and I looked back on it, though, usually the times that I. delayed or rescheduled or pushed off, pushed away, I should say, a break that had been planned. And consequently just felt like it was just work, work and no fun and joy and downtime to help recharge those batteries.

Well, then that leads to the next point, right? Next question, which is like, how do we, you know, what are the actually some of the symptoms that, sorry, what are some of the things that lead up to a burnout? You kind of alluded to it as usually a break for me, it's, it's that break. It's every single time I think about all the burnouts I've ever had, it's always like, I didn't take the time to recover a rest, like we all go through this circadian rhythm every single day that we're supposed to, you know, work hard. And then we, you know, recharge and refuel, which is

Yeah.

basically food that we eat, but also ensure that we get proper sleep so that we actually are back to recover for the next day. And those are the things that I know in life is that if I don't, I remember this one year where I didn't travel very much. I think it was probably about 14 years ago when my daughter was first born and dealing with the first newborn, being a new father, a new parent, it's just like all the things that you just didn't know what to do. I remember that year being really tough, not just for all those new moments and like lack of sleep and everything else, but I also recognized was that's the year that I didn't travel the least in my, well, since my adult life or afterschool life at least. And I made a story, maybe it's a story, I don't know what it is, but for me, I recognized, I was like, oh, I took one trip this year. And I just felt that my body, my brain, as I was mostly a brain, wasn't my body so much, was my brain. just was not, was just fatigued. And so I made a vow to myself that from then on, I'm like, no matter what, I am going to make an effort to make sure I take three to four breaks a year. So every quarter I would take a break. Whether it's a short break, it could be a long weekend. I don't have to travel. Just like something that I can spend some time being away. And I made that conscious effort. And which meant with a new baby, I had to go, no, that's more important than making the excuses I can't travel because I got a young child. And so from then on, you know, the kids have been traveling since they were young. Uh, and we never made any excuse. We traveled the world with the kids. And it's funny on another side topic here, a lot of people ask, you know, they, they say, Oh man, I can't travel anymore because with kids, I'm like, why not? You know, because it is that. I did. I can.

Yep. Yeah. Well, you've just come back from a break, right? You've just come with, tell us about that because I saw on the, you know, on your social profile and reaching out to you look like you had a ball. And importantly, you had a trip with other families as well. What was that like?

Yeah, so we create, you know, I had an opportunity to, to rent out a super yacht, you know, and I know this seems like ostentatious and luxury, but it, yeah, it was a tough, it was tough. Well, well, listen, committing to a super yacht is scary and daunting. Because it's quite a bit, obviously, because you got to commit not knowing who's going to join you. And then so I just put it out there and going, okay, I'm going to fill this boat. There's 18 rooms, I'm gonna have to

That sounds horrible man, that sounds horrible. Yeah.

close to 40 people here on this boat. And anyway, so I reached out to some entrepreneurial friends and somehow we were able to, I wanted to bring my kids though. I didn't wanna just leave the kids at home. I go, who's stupid enough to be able to go on a trip on a super yacht, pay the amount of money to go to a super yacht together, travel around Croatia for a week with a bunch of kids and families. And sure enough, there was eight families. that I happen to know, we went on this boat, 38 of us, 20 of them were kids, so we had more kids on the boat. I think the staff were pretty stressed out, let me tell you, they were probably experiencing burnout in the beginning of the season because they never dealt with kids on a boat before, right? Usually they're all fully adults, sitting down, drinking, glass of wine, whatever. No, these kids are running around, like jumping on furniture and they're trying to serve food, navigating through these kids ages from like six to four. 16. So it was pretty tough. But going back to burnout, I, I recognize how amazing going away is. And I think it is same thing for you is, is one reasons why we run retreats, right? We run retreats, because we want to take people outside of their comfort zone in terms of their family, their home, their home city and their work environment, so they can actually really focus in on finding time for themselves, you know, and this is why we do things in locations that no know, typically where people don't live is because we want to make sure they are come out and make the investment in themselves. It's not just about visiting those locations, but actually getting out of your own current locations. Because I think new ideas, new thought patterns don't come from the existing environments. And moving different environments is the most important thing.

You're right. Yeah, because you allow ideas to germinate and take form when you're in a different environment. You start thinking at things, you look for different connections between things. And I agree with you totally. That was the realization that I got to. And I think for me, when I say multiple times, that first year of practice that I first worked in, I think that was, I first experienced that as a first case. And that's when I, I got very, very clear of what, what work and success was going to look like from then on. Because I effectively just doubled down on one metric of it. And that was graduate, hit the ground running, go. And I did. And, and when I look back now, I was working seven days a week and I did that for nearly 18 months, I didn't have a day off in 18 months and I was on a plane three days a week flying, traveling to remote parts of the country, not shutting down, not slowing down. And I got to it where.

Wow.

And here's the thing, and I share this story with a lot of people that I coach and work with when I say at the end of the first year, I absolutely smashed it on metrics in terms of busier than I've ever been, practice just boomed. And yet I got to the end of it and I went, I hate this. I don't want to do this anymore. It's because I didn't honor the important parts of all parts of myself rather than just one metric. So, um, you know, it's a very common thing. And I always share this story with people because. I'd let them know that you can keep doing things for a certain period of time and you will be okay with it up until the point where, as you said, there's gonna be some slippage or the cracks will start showing up and you turn around and say, I can't do this anymore. I don't wanna do this anymore. I need a change.

Well, I think it's a lot of, a lot of times burnout happens. As I feel is that people kind of focus more on the destination than the, than the journey itself. So we all have a goal. We all have a destination of what we are dreaming, that dream of what we want. And sometimes we're so focused on that journey. And so like the yachts, for example, like just every day we're going to a different destination. And there was a, the last couple of days, it was rough weather. Like it was, you know, cause it was raining. Um, and we, the sea was quite choppy, you know, and unknown, unseasonably choppy for that time of year in Croatia. But, you know, the journey was horrible. Like it wasn't nice. Like, you know, half the boat was kind of seasick and had to deal with that, you know, dealing with those rough waves. So one of the things that happens is that sometimes we have a destination, we go, okay, if we get there or when we get there, you know, we're gonna be happy. Then that's what most of the times we do. We focus on the destination thinking that's gonna make us happy. But the reality is, it's actually, yes, that's part of the puzzle, but the rest of the puzzle is actually the journey itself. Was it actually fun? you know, you could, you know, it was an enjoyable and fun doesn't necessarily mean was easy. I mean, like fun is it was a did you enjoy the process. So I think about like our workouts, you know, whether you're doing jiu jitsu, or, you know, doing CrossFit or marathon or whatever, like, you don't enjoy the process from a physical point of view, but you do enjoy like, doing tough things, for example, right. So I'm not saying everything has to be enjoyable from a easy perspective or a fun perspective, but it has to been enjoyable. So I think the ride to it.

Yep.

to a goal can be hard. But if you enjoyed the process of it, then I think that leads to less burnout. Whereas if you actually get to a position where you work so hard, but you actually gave up so much, that's not enjoyed.

And that's the thing. And that's the thing. And I think that was the realization in hindsight after that first year that I realized was I was, I was basically neglecting values that were important to me in the pursuit of a specific objective and goal. And I realized that that's not sustainable. It's akin. You mentioned a marathon earlier on. It's akin to taking one breath and trying to run a marathon. You just can't do it, right? You run out of puff eventually. So to me, the realization when you talk about families and going away on holidays, I've done that as well. And they were great and awesome. And sometimes it's really funny because I'd feel like I was getting tired. I was looking forward to a break and I might've felt a little bit burnt out. And I don't know if you ever noticed it, but the week before a break, suddenly I was in a zone. I was in flow and I was going, great, now I'm gonna go on break and now I'm in flow. And it's a really weird thing, but I think it was because I was looking forward to. a break that I could actually relax and just enjoy that process a little bit more knowing that on the other end of this week, there'll be some downtime and that's the realization I have to get to.

Well, that's one of the reasons why I actually plan my breaks, you know, beforehand, because I don't want to reach burnout and then plan for a break because I'm already exhausted. I'm already tired and I don't want to feel like that. I want to make sure that when I plan a break ahead of time, I know this is what I have to get to. You know, I just got to go, okay, well, it's between here and now to July, or that's when the next break is. And then you kind of go through that brain process. I'm like, okay, well, I just got to work this hard. And so you never almost, you almost want to plan

same.

these breaks well in advance before the burnout actually occurs. And if you can do that, it will never happen. And that's so important. The second thing I wanna make a comment on what you sort of said is that I think a lot of people unfortunately feel like I'm burnt out, I need a break. So then they go on a break, and then they enjoy themselves so much on the break, they actually don't wanna come back, right? Or they actually, the break isn't supposed to... The break isn't just to kind of give you a bit of relief, the break is supposed to recharge you to be excited to come back. And so what you do in the break is such an important thing. And what you decide to have a break on is gonna be such an important part because you're supposed to use that break as a launching pad to reset, you know, your body and your mind and your spirituality so that you can actually go and want to tackle the next project or the next thing you're trying to do. but most people kind of look forward to a break and the break, they look so forward to the break itself that they have the break, but then they realize like, I don't wanna go back to the thing I used to do. And, or I might just go that they actually, they don't realize that they should be setting the next break and be excited. And that's a problem, I think. And it's just, that only leads to further burnouts and you'd actually then. lead to a point of not enjoying your life, not enjoying your career, not enjoying your project, and you create stories and like, oh, maybe I shouldn't be here. And you spend the next six months to a year questioning your position or what you're doing, and then it kind of creates that spiral. And it all stems from you just not taking care of yourself in the process of getting to your destination.

Yeah, you made a great point there Lawrence about if you're not enjoying your life, I think that first and foremost, we have to get to a point where we're enjoying what we're doing. And when I say enjoying, but feeling like it's meeting my values, I'm making a difference, it's purposeful, et cetera, et cetera. That's really important thing because for people who don't, breaks are like an escape from reality, right? But for people who love what they do, they get to the point where they go, I just need to recharge. And I know in myself. Same sort of thing. When I was going away on breaks, I'd go for a run. I'd have all these ideas going through my head. And I would bet that the break that you've had, you've probably gone, I've got all these ideas that have come through my head. Why? Because you created that environment where you could incubate those. But to me, I couldn't get ideas down fast enough. So I had this agreement. I go for a run, I just come home and I write everything down because my brain would just do that. And my team would know. I came back from a break, oh boy, here we go, buckle in because we're going for a ride. And we would have record weeks every time we would come back because I was like, boom, I'm good to go. Let's go. And so that to me, it was a case of just reenergizing as opposed to escaping.

Yeah, well, that's a really critical point, right? If you're escaping, and you know that when you're on break, then it's something not to do with the break or not a lack of break is actually something that you've been doing in your in your work. And this is something's not fulfilling, or you're out of alignment, or you are not incongruent to the values that you know, got you there in the first place. So I think it's important to use that break not to escape, but to actually reevaluate your work and going. Where am I not happy? Where am I incongruent? Where are my values that I'm not aligning with? And work on those things because otherwise you're constantly escaping and you're just doing, you're just really spending 80% of the time doing something you don't love and just enjoying your breaks, trying to escape from reality. And it's not a fun thing to do.

And I've read some commentary around this is really helpful is that a lot of the times when people don't find joy in their day to day, they experience burnout and they will find substances or experiences to numb or to escape from their current reality. So that then all they're doing is sustaining themselves to the best of their ability in an environment that's toxic to them. And if they would change that. their breaks, their habits would change as well because they're not trying to get away from something. They would find basically an energizing process of recharging by going on breaks as well. And just like you, that was the realization that I got to as well where at the start of the year, I would pre-plan things as well and say, right, we're taking a break here and here and here. And even when you go, I don't feel like I need to, the discipline of stick meant it was like interval training. Yeah, it was like sprints, six week block. Go hard, have a break, go hard, break. And the years that I did that, that I had more time away from our practice, our business and work, that were always our busiest years. Funny to say, it was counterintuitive.

And I would say, yeah, it's so true, though, right? And it is because your energy shifted. It has nothing to do with time. It has always to do with the energy and the energy you're bringing in. And then what you're highlighting is that, you know, for most people who are watching this and listening to this, I know you're a listener, as you're listening to this, most likely you're some sort of an entrepreneurial minded thinker, right? That's why you're listening to us. And when you're an entrepreneurial minded thinker, one of the key elements is that you don't wanna go back to the same routine, because it's not how you're built typically. You know, there's usually two types of people, right? There's sort of like the hunters and the farmers, right? And there's nothing wrong with being a farmer, but the hunters, the farmers are the one who loves routine, likes to go back to the sameness. They want to make sure everything's the same, the same consistency. And those are great people. They're great employees because they're the ones who kind of tend to want to go back to some routine and knowing the certainty that everything's going to be exactly the same. They need that comfort. But for a hunter, which is more like an entrepreneur, they want to have... They can't hunt the same path. They can't hunt this you can't go back to the same path They expect the animal to be there That's not how the hunting works Hunting means that you have to go different paths search out different ways and you find a way to find the right way to kind Of hunt the animal was the same thing from an entrepreneurial perspective You are going to be more of a someone who likes change you want to change something in your routine Change something that excites you you're gonna you have that squirrel mentality where something you know, you got that. Okay, that's exciting That's a shiny object syndrome, we all have it to them to agree. But the thing is, making sure that you're chasing things that it matters to you in a value that are value to you. But the most important thing I want to highlight here is to make sure that you are changing something, it could be a small thing in your business. So every break that I come back to is like, what's one element change that I need to embrace myself to what challenge do I need to kind of step into that I'm not stepping into? Or what projects that I've been scared of doing that I should be leaning towards? Because that prevents, I think, or at least lowers the probability of burnout, because that's what excites that entrepreneurial brain that excites the entrepreneurial mind. And therefore, when you do something each and every single quarter, doing something that's different and challenging, exciting, just I'm not talking like it has to double your business or anything, but sometimes it's just enough to excite you that goes, Oh, there's a bit of thrill there. And you chase it while still doing the rest of things, you still got to manage the rest of the things. But there's that one little thing that could help you elevate to that next level, that could change your level of trajectory. And that's how we all improve. And that will I think is one of the cure for a burnout.

Yeah, like it, like it. And you know, sometimes we've highlighted, I guess we focused on what happens when we, you know, we plan for breaks. And so that's one strategy or process of managing burnout. The harder thing is when you're in it. And a lot of the times you'll see that you're, you see it even in teams, a sporting team or a person, a sports person can be classed as being out of form. They're just not. performing at the level that they previously were. And there could be something emotional, physical, mental, that's curtailing that performance. And it's a really interesting thing is like great coaches in those environments sometimes realize that trying harder is not the right strategy, because you already try harder. And I know that myself, sometimes when I've been in that situation, my default would be just work harder, just find another strategy, just go harder, double down. And that was counterproductive. And so a great coach in those situations would go, Hey guys, we need to change the scenario, change the energy, as you said, Lawrence, and we're not training today. You know, I had coaches who did the same thing. We go bowling, we're going swimming, we're going to have a barbecue or go, go and have dinner together as a team and bond and just reframe things. And suddenly you find that spark that you, that you were missing. So, you know, perhaps we can explore that in terms of a team may sometimes be underperforming and it's purely because they've just been.

Mmm. Yeah.

going too hard without the adequate rest as well.

Well, sometimes in a team environment, oftentimes you're going too hard or going after the same goals every single quarter or every single year and without actually seeing any rewards from it and people are, we need that reward. We need that dopamine hit, dopamine hit to, to kind of go, Hey, like we're, we're going somewhere where we're actually making a difference here. And so that that's a challenge thing. So I think oftentimes also too, is that you are not shifting up the, maybe the challenge that maybe sometimes the team doesn't have enough challenge. because you're so focused on your own personal goals that you forgot the team's goal. And sometimes it's about you as the owner or maybe this leader, you've forgotten to link up the challenge that you actually have to a vision of what you're trying to create, or maybe you lost sense of the vision of what your business is about. Oftentimes, when do we most think about our vision? Usually when you create them, right? And...

Mmm.

I guarantee you, 90% of you, if I asked your team, what is the vision of the business, they probably don't know. Because, oh yeah, we did that one time, right? And it's because you felt good in the moment, like, all right, we created our vision and our values. Awesome, but you never revisited again. It's like, well, what's the point, right? It's like, and I think those are important things to kind of think about is that the team leads to a burnout because we're not really re-engaging than what inspired them in the first place. That's why motivation is only temporary, right? What really helps is not motivation, helps is consistency, right, consistent, inspiring to move towards a singular vision. But that vision has to be reminded amongst your team and amongst yourself of why you do what you do. And so if you're in a position where you're lost at the moment, or you're feeling a bit burnout, or not ensuring not sure where you're where you want to go in life, it's simply because of the fact that you have lost the spark, you have lost what you're doing, and you don't actually have clarity of what where you're actually heading. So all you're doing is just peddling. and you're riding or just driving around without actually a destination. That's okay to feel that way. I've been there many times. And Jim, I'm sure you would say the same thing. And the thing is, is that you right, but sometimes what we need to do is what you said is that got actually pulled over, right? Stop, don't run to stop pedaling for a second. And then look at the map and go, where am I actually going? Rather than driving in a roundabout over and over again, trying to because the world and society tells you, you've got to keep moving.

Absolutely.

right? Why don't we just actually stop and go? Like I remember, my wife does this all the time, because I'm not sure where I'm going. So why don't we just pull over? And you know, like, sometimes it was like, I know you're right, but I don't want to admit to it, right? It's just like, I'm just gonna keep driving until I figure it out. So and then sometimes I go, Okay, you're right. I just gonna pull over here and actually punch in the map and figure out exactly what direction to go. But that's the same thing in life, right?

Hmm. Yeah.

oftentimes we're just keep going because we're supposed to go and that's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to show up at nine and finish at five and every day we show up and then you go, have you ever asked yourself, what are you doing all this for? Right? Like for what reason and for what purpose? And I think that's such an important question to ask every once in a while because it, it highlights the fact that sometimes you are, you, you've forgotten where you're supposed to go and therefore remind you. Or sometimes you're going. You know what, I thought I wanted that, but I don't no longer want it. Okay, that's a harder question to deal with, or answer to deal with, but at the same time, it forces you to go at least going, okay, at least I know the direction I want to go, or wanted to go in the past, isn't the right direction, so maybe I need to clarify a new one. You might be sitting there on the side for a while to figure that out, but at least you figured it out now, rather than going, you know, 10, 100 kilometers down the road and realizing, crap, I've been going on the wrong direction for all these years.

Yeah. It's a little bit like the paradox between the, the paradox between activity and progress where you lull yourself into thinking, Hey, I'm actually really progressing because I'm active. I'm, when in actual fact you could be going a hundred kilometers in the wrong direction. And so I, that was the, the smirk. I went guilty as charged. I've, I've been guilty of that in the past. Something I want to thread, circle back to, there's a thread that you, that I picked up when you were talking.

Hmm.

And yeah, you talked about people who are not stimulated and perhaps bored and the other people. So you've got those components being burnt out. So you, there's a, if there's people who aren't stimulated enough or they don't have enough value buying into the vision of the organization, for example, there's a chance that they'll be burnt out and there's other people whose tasks are so overwhelming at the other extreme that they're burnt out too. So for me, like overwhelming and burnout can be, sorry, burnout can be either of those areas which impact on both, whether you're under stimulated or over extended. And as a result of that, you have basically, you're stretched in multiple directions, you get burnt out. So that's the component of it. And I loved what you were saying about the wisdom of just pulling over, because to me, when I was in burnout, one of the things that I learned and I use as an example was, I imagined a circle. And I was inside the circle with everything that I was doing, all my commitments, everything. And what I did is I took everything out of the circle, everything that I was involved in, connected to, even the things that I love doing. And at one stage I walked away from Jiu-Jitsu for a couple of months because I went, I'm going to take these out and detach the commitments from self, the obligations, and really determine whether I really want to do those. And when I did that.

Hmm

the things that I crave, the things that I wanted, I brought back into the circle. And the things that I didn't, they're still out there. And that to me was a strategy and a process of clarification or pulling over and going, is this serving me? And do I wanna keep going this way?

And that's the dark side of rituals, right? Like, I mean, we don't talk a lot about that, because it's so hard to form a ritual and a habit. But the other side of it, I mean, the sliver downside is that you create rituals and habits that you continually doing, but without actually questioning it, because you've done it for years, you know, and, and it's just it ends, that could be exercise, you know, doing something that you've always done, and not realizing that was 20 years ago, and I was a different person back then doing these things. So when you talked about, you know, about exercise and I think we use exercise a lot of it as an analogy because I feel like that really translates to other parts of our lives. I remember one time I was doing CrossFit and I was doing CrossFit consistently. I was probably doing about four, four times, maybe five times a week. And I remember there was a period of about one to two weeks where I just felt like, man, I just don't, I'm tired. I'm getting up in the morning. I'm just really tired. I'm just not, I'm not lifting weights as hard and. I'm not sure what it is. Like I'm just not pulling like the similar weights and patterns. I couldn't push in those limits. And I talked to my coach and like, I don't know why I'm feeling this way. He goes, how many times are you doing this? And he's like, you know, four or five times. And it goes, are you just doing CrossFit and no Metcon, which is, you know, the metabolic conditioning. I'm like, no, I'm just doing straight CrossFit because I, you know, I wanted to get better. And and he goes, you're burnt out because my recommendation is take a week off. And I was like, what? Like I was shocked, you know, from a coach perspective, like, no, you need to take a week off. You need to, like your nervous system is built. I mean, I was a freaking chiropractor back then by that. Like, you know, like I'm so dumb that not to recognize it. Like my, that my nervous system was so burnt out. Like I was so wired because I was jacking up my, you know, every single workout. I was pushing myself to the extreme that I wasn't learning to take breaks. And now I'm a bit smarter now. Like I can feel like I'll go, you know what, today, not today, I'm not going to, like I'll go, I'll work, but I'm not working at a hundred percent capacity. I know I need to dial it down today. Cause you know, maybe I'm a bit under the weather or just feel my body is not, you know, it's just not a realm I don't have a you know, a whoop or anything like that. But I can just tell, I just didn't get a good enough rest or after like a holiday. Typically, I don't jump into CrossFit right away. I typically do a week of like metabolic conditioning because I got to condition my body back, you know, for not working as much. So it's like, dope. But that's the same analogy in life is like, you're so wired nerve in your nervous system typically that you are so like

Yeah. Hmm.

There are cortisol levels are so high because you're gone to go, that you forget that that's what leads to this point of fatigue. It's mental fatigue, it's spiritual fatigue, and emotional fatigue. And this is why the breaks matter so much. But it's the breaks I feel is not just to get your physical, mental, and emotional settled, but I really think is an evaluation of like, like the last quarter of the way I've done things, is that the best way moving forward? and the analogy of you putting everything else in the circle and putting it back in. I think you should do that every quarter. I think you should really evaluate and go like, what did I, how was, how do I value my last quarter? Give it a score, right? Out of 10, no sevens, right? Because everybody puts it a seven. So it's out an eight or six and you make a decision and go, okay, what, what worked, what didn't work. But then like look at take everything out and go, what do I want to put back into this quarter in my life? And then maybe try out not to do some, you know, certain foods or diets or you know, exercises so that you can get a different realm and different perspective to see how it goes. It might not work, but at least you know, and then you can go back to those routines later on in the next course.

Yeah, I, what was a really big distinction for me was when I started measuring, are you what I noticed? I've got my, my smart phone, smartwatch that I wear. I do track my heart rate variability, my HRV. And it's actually made a big difference in avoid, in helping me avoid that because there are that, you know, I'll get up every morning and I'll measure it. That, and it gives me a reference. And, and because I'm not pushing, you know, if I, if I've got six out of 10. energy and I've got a workout that's a nine or 10 out of 10, that's going to exhaust me. And so what I've gotten a lot better at doing is matching my energy levels to what my capacity is. And so as a result of that, I don't overextend myself. I've actually been able to build in a more sustainable training schedule. And so for example, that's the reason why I can't do crossfit and Jiu Jitsu at the same time. It just taxes my system too much. So I do my weights, but I do it that's not as intense. You know, a lot of the younger guys, they'll do their crossfit and that, I just can't do it myself because it depletes myself. I used to get injured more often and I'd just be exhausted. So they're the metrics that I use. Yes, as well as having someone on left and right shoulder go, hey dude, you're looking too tired, take a week off. Because sometimes let's face it, you and I have spoken this before, we're driven. We want to get the best out of ourselves. And sometimes the warning signs either

Yep.

aren't big enough or even if they're there, we're gonna ignore them. So there have to be checks and balances that protect you sometimes from you to ensure that you don't overextend yourself and you're in for the long game as opposed to just burning out.

You know, it's interesting you brought up the smartwatch. I've never worn a smartwatch. The whole family has a smartwatch. I don't. I've thought about getting a whoop. I've thought about getting an Apple watch, but I'm always tempted, I'm always scared actually, to be honest, and then we can have a quick discussion around this. That the data is not as accurate as I would like it to be. And the data then causes me to do things or not do things because of what the data says. You know, like let's say.

Yeah, yeah.

Let's just say, and I don't know the truth of this, that's why I'm asking, is because like just say I had a really good night's sleep and I feel great and I look at my, you know, whoop score or my Apple Watch and it goes, oh, you had a terrible sleep and your score is like 60 out of whatever, 100 or something. I'm like, God damn it. Like, you know, I felt pretty good and your dad is telling me it. So then I'm like get confused and I almost like don't want to fall into that trap. So I, but question to you now, I don't know if you're not the expert, but at least maybe give your side of the story around that.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's actually really funny you say that because you know when you talk about having kids And I remember my oldest young eldest son He had a bit of trouble sleeping and so I'd be coming to practice not of having slept exceptionally well exhausted and tired and the last thing you want people saying to is dude you look terrible and You go I actually feel okay, and they are not you look terrible And so then you start going through the mental gymnastics of well am I really tired so I get what you're talking about right And there has to be, there was a, I was like that too, where I was like, no, I feel really good. And then I don't want to admit to myself that that's the case, but to me, it's the ultimate level of surrender. And I had to go through a process where I had to trust the data. And there were times where I'd go, I feel really tired. I look at it and it's telling you, dude, your heart rate really is awesome. Like, I'm just dogging it here. Now get up and, and I, and it, and it kicks your butt like nobody else. But there are other times you go, I feel really good, but your metrics don't show that. So you go, okay, wonder why that is. Okay. I'm just going to listen to it. And what I find is when I do that, I, things like colds and being, I don't, I don't very rarely have anymore because I'm not exceeding my capacity, my thresholds. Because my part would go, yeah, I'll just push, forget the data. But at some point I'd have to pay the Piper and the Piper was two or three days being unwell. running through a healing crisis. So that's what it's done for me over the last three or four years, which has been really huge. But you have to, but you have to, yeah, I get it. There's a level of surrender to go, I don't wanna give you control data. I really don't. But the moment that you can embrace it and you go, okay, how can I use this data to help me? The days that it says you need to rest, I go, oh, okay, I'll rest. But the next day,

Okay, all right, I'll think about it. I'm on that verge for sure.

or the day after is like personal best. It's really phenomenal how it's worked out for me.

Well, I trust, you know, usually I'm on top of these tech technology things and usually jump ahead and not wait, but for this, for some reason I, for the, those scores and stuff, I kind of waited, but I feel like, you know, technology improves so much now in the data and the collection and, and also just the readings of it, I think that's gone better. So I have more trust in it now, I guess, uh, if I had to kind of make that argument, so we'll see, we'll, we'll might consider it.

But I totally get it. I don't think it's about a data because I don't think it's about a data. Even the smile on your face is the giveaway Lawrence. It's like, I don't want to give up control to something else, but I love the idea that I can go, hey, I feel it. I'll be a good judge of myself and I get all that. But there's something that you can't deny when you've got objective data and you just go, okay man, it's telling me there. And there's a reality check that I have to listen to. So I had to traverse that.

Of course.

that obstacle myself actually. So I get you. I understand you. Give it a go.

Yeah. All right, so let's come back to burnout. I mean, obviously these are, I mean, so, I mean, one of the advice of guests from Jim is that, you know, get some data to see it, to avoid burnout. Right? Cause I mean, that's one of the most important things to actually, you know, and to ensure, and there's some truth to that for sure. Cause if you're not measuring, um, then you really don't know. And you're just based on gut feel and gut feel. We talked about how important that is, but sometimes, sometimes that we could be intuitively wrong on those things. And I think having that. information because often times, especially when it comes to burnout, I do agree with you there is like, by the time you feel like you're burnt out, you're already burnt out. And I think that's so important to kind of make sure that we're doing the right things and getting that information properly and not coming back too early. I think that's one of the kind of things that we wanted to talk about is that, you know, how, how does someone not come back too early from, from an injury or from, or the full potential in certain things or when to kind of pull back a little bit or maybe say no to certain projects. What was your advice around that?

I think your coach or actually your coach was very wise in saying, take a week off, but also you transitioning back into your normal routine is very wise as well. Metabolic training you have, you can't just parachute back into where you were a few weeks ago. Because there will have been a deconditioning component in there as well. It's the most, one of the most biggest injustices in life that it takes you three months to get a level of fitness and you'll drop it in two weeks. It's just the way that it is. So I think it's

Yeah, it's so hard.

I think it's smart. The way you do that is metabolic training. And that's what I always do is if I've had an injury or if I've had some time away from training, if I've had a week, I've been traveling, I don't go back into full scale, 100% combat mode. I'll transition. I'll go through drills. I'll just take it easy. I'll do, you know, half the session in terms of my combat and sparring and just do that over a few days to adapt to that, to acclimatize, so to speak, to get myself ready. It's the same reason. So yeah, what you had outlined that you intuitively do is pretty much what I do as well.

Yeah, sometimes like I know. Uh, so, you know, just a quick update on the thumb. I don't think I actually mentioned it since, you know, we, we know, since we kind of had the injury, but you know, it's confirmed on X-ray, is it actually a fracture and, um, you know, there's a butterfly fracture in my thumb and. You know, I didn't get the results until last week, but I knew intuitively there was a fracture because I went back to play paddle because I can grip a racket, shouldn't be a problem. And, but I forgot about the vibration of when you hit the ball. Yeah.

It goes all the way through here.

Yeah, you're like, okay, yeah, never thought about that. It's like not, it's not just about gripping the ball. It's about the vibration. And, you know, luckily I've been able to train. I've been able to work out for most things. I've been able to do most things on CrossFit. I actually haven't gone back to CrossFit since that time. Actually, funny enough, I haven't actually picked up a bar since I injured my thumb. I just avoided all those workouts simply for the fact that I just don't want to re-injured my, just basically giving it time to heal. But the mental capacity, like the mental. toughness, the hard part is actually I want to go play paddle, I want to go do those things. But it's like saying no. And knowing I feel perfectly well. And I'm losing ground here, you know, at the same time watching everybody else, you know, moving forward. And it's like that mental capacity of just being able to like let go and going no, let's give it a you know, fracture is gonna take six to eight weeks, no matter how much I fast track this, no matter how fast I'm healing, I'm getting older now. So it's gonna take that six to weeks, just allow that six to eight.

Yeah. Yeah.

week process to go through. Like that's tough, right? To say no to things, to go like, I feel perfectly fine. They've been tempted this week just to kind of get back in. I'm like, oh, they're missing a player. I should just join. Like, no, like just give it another, like it's only one more week. It's only another couple of weeks. Let's just let it be. And that's hard. And that comes when it comes to business or it comes to, you know, for, you know, relationships or whatever, there's always that temptation. Like, oh, I think I can, I think I can go back in there. And, but. That's what happens a lot of times, especially in pro sports, a lot of people just go back in there too early. And what you're actually doing, you're actually doing a disadvantage for your whole entire team, especially if you're playing in a team sport, because all you're doing is that, yeah, they might, you might've got the best out of you from that one game, but then you're out now put yourself in a position where you can't recover. And I've been watching this Netflix doc, docco on the tour de France, um, uh, right now. And it's.

Okay, I saw it advertised, yeah.

Yeah, and I've been watching that and like that's a grueling event, right? 21 days of like just riding and these guys are just pounding themselves every day and then got to get back on there, recover and then get back on there and do it. It's just a fascinating sport. I don't tend to watch it that much, but like, and every time I remember one time in Australia as a watching and I was like, this is actually fascinating to watch. I was like staying up at midnight watching the tour front. I'm like, I never thought I'd be watching cycling. Yeah, we can actually do it over time.

We don't have to do that now. We can watch it during proper times.

And it's so interesting to kind of see like how when, when they, when they know that they have to go, okay, we have to change strategies here because you know, our top riders gone on, gone down or they're not performing as well. And they just know that the fatigue is getting catching on. And then, you know, so they've changed strategy along the way. And I think we need to kind of consider doing that. And sometimes the, the riders themselves don't think that they, you know, they're always pushing themselves. They're always kind of finding that they're, they're limit. But it's usually the team manager going, no, listen. You're just not performing that well. We're going to have to drop you from the top rider. We're going to push this guy to be the top rider. And that sometimes it could be a damage to the ego, but sometimes we need that. We need someone to kind of maybe throttle us down because we're probably our worst own enemy sometimes. You know, a lot, not a lot, most of us may not have the natural discipline, especially if you're a driver and you're an accelerator, someone who just constantly pushed a type A personality, you might not find that the down switch because you think you can conquer all. You still think you're your 20s, but reality as we get older, you know, you don't heal as well. I know I'm not healing as well as I could if I was my 20 years old. Like sure, can I push through it? I probably can, but what's the detriment? And I see this often, especially when I play paddle with these guys, we're playing with, you know, 40, 50 year olds. All right. Who probably haven't played active sport like this probably for about 20 years. And now they're getting in there playing two or three times a week thinking everything's okay. And I've got a small load of injury here and then keep on pushing it. And then, you know, I've had people who had snap bicep tendons, their tennis elbows are so injury, they gotta take six months off. It's like, I don't wanna be in that position. I'd rather take a couple of weeks off, so I don't have to continue to play rather than having to stop playing altogether for six months and then also stop my workouts because I can't move my arm. So it's just being smart about your life and also not, this is a physical analogy to also the mental analogy in life as well.

Mmm. Yeah, I think you highlighted a very good point there. And that's what I want to co-tail on from Lawrence is that in professional sports, the moment that the activity is over, they kick into recovery, recovery mode. So, you know, there are teams that play interstate. There were especially some AFL football teams that I knew who were playing. They had a really short turnaround time in between games. And to optimize the team recovery, what they did is they privately to fly at a lower altitude to cause less inflammation in the players' legs so they can recover faster, right? So we hear of athletes, you see them, footballers, the next morning, the day after the game, they're either in ice baths or they're in the beach, basically decreasing inflammation in their body. So they're active recovery. We can take that as an example in parallel and put it to other areas of the world and go, if you are going to perform in your life and your work and your business, if you're, what is your recovery?

Yes.

process, where is your downtime? That to me is what prevents burnout and allows you to keep performing. The recovery could be go out there and connecting with, take your kid to the park, have fun, just find the joy in things or have some time with your significant other and reconnect with why you're doing what you're doing or just go out there and go to your own footy game and watch it and cheer and carry on and just re-change the perspective of things if that is what. juices you and inspires you and is part of your active recovery that allow you to turn up Monday Recharge as a better version of yourself ready to go

Recovery is such an important element. Like I remember, you know, I was coached by Jeff Spencer, who was my mindset coach for many years. And he was part of the Tour de France teams, you know, for over nine years or so. And one of the things he said, like, you know, you know, they're traveling from place to place for 21 days during the Tour de France. And, you know, one of the most important things is recovery. Well, how do you recover you sleep. So instead of sleeping on a, you know, different hotel bed every single night, they brought their own mattresses. As silly as that sounds, right? To bring your own mattress, but it's like,

Mmm.

This is the most important thing. This is what we dedicate our life for. We're gonna pack a mattresses to sleep so because that's what our routine is and we're gonna recover the best, not chancing that you're gonna get a crappy mattress at a hotel. So they'll throw away whatever, put aside the other mattress, put on their own mattress and they will sleep. If the team can do that and can carry it and actually be part of the team to do that and...

Makes sense.

to supply that, then yeah, they want to make sure you can do that. So recovery is such an important element. I think sometimes we often but here's the downside of what we're just talking about, we're using a lot of sports analogies, right. But what we're seeing is game time, we see these awesome players, you know, put in two hours of effort, you know, or three hours or four, maybe four hours of effort, like to the maximum potential of their ability, then we go, oh, then we got to do that too. And then we go back to our gym and, and push ourselves in our business and our workouts. But you forget to see you don't you don't see them, especially as I say, NFL football. They play on Sundays, but guess what they're doing between Monday and Saturday, right? They're recovering and prepping up for the next week, which means they go in there and go hard for two to three hours, and then they go recover for the next six days. Most of us don't have a job that we go in for two hours and then have six days to recover, right? Most of us are constantly don't go in and day in and day out, and that's the problem. We think that we can translate all, look at these athletes, look at these sports, I wanna translate that mental mentality into our life. Yeah, but... they have recovery time, you just don't see it. That's not documented, you know? And therefore what we gotta remind ourselves is like, where's your downtime? You know, if you're pushing yourself to midnight every single night, two o'clock in the morning and getting up at 5 a.m., like that's not necessarily the smartest move because that's not what an athlete would do, right? You know, if they're pro sports, and then that's the same thing we have to have the mentality. What we gotta think about is like, how far are we pushing it and how far, what is our downtime? What is our recovery time? You know, if you're constantly on these devices all the time and you never stop working when you come home, like where is your downtime from the physicality and the emotional and spiritual thing that we've been talking about? And that's what that can also making sure that you prevent the burnout situation.

Yeah, and I guess the final thing that I would say too is the most relevant time of burnout for us was with young kids. And sometimes just the remedy for burnout would be to have someone come over, look after the kids for a few hours. So the turn I could just go out and have dinner together and just enjoy each other's company and just recharge. And sometimes it's as simple as that. It's reconnecting to the things taking you away. And the best part is you come back and you'd really appreciate your kids again because you had a break, you had a time away. Everybody got to have some space and nurture and have those needs met where you just had some time to regroup, recharge, have an adult conversation, for example, and it just changed everything. So to me, it's the ultimate I agree with you totally is the breaks, planning breaks along the way. and work towards them, but sometimes build in on your day-to-day strategies and processes to down-regulate that stress response, just to take some of the rocks off your backpack and simplify the process so that you're not constantly push, push. I think that's probably the biggest learning that I've learned over time.

You know, with kids, I've had so many clients that, you know, are just in that stage of having their first child. And I've had multiple conversation and it makes me feel old, but it's like, you know, wisdom from my experience as a father, my first time being a father, and you go back and you got to remind these adults who have been, you know, who've never had kids before and they've been pushing hard. And it's great to see them succeed. But when they're trying to plan their life, He goes, okay, well, I'll do this and this and this. Then we'll have the baby here and then we'll just do this. I'm like, I think you're over planning. Like, I think you're underestimating the physical, emotional toll that your child's gonna have on you and your family. Now, it may not be so much on you, but I think you're underestimating the toll that it might take on your wife or your partner. And I think those are some things that you see, I hear all the time. They're planning their life pre-kids to almost exactly the same post-kids. And it's just that, oh, we just got an extra kid. Now you may, and I always say to this, I'm like, I understand that you may be the lucky parent that your child is perfect and sleeps perfectly fine or whatever, but you rather budget and also plan accordingly for the world, not the worst case, but the most typical scenarios of raising a newborn and also plan according to that. And then if things go really, really well for whatever reason, then. Oh, sure, then add something to it rather than going planning for perfection. Just like me who my first child, I'm like, my daughter was supposed to be born on, in August of 2008. I'm like, oh, perfect. 888, right? August the 8th, 2008. It would be that it was China's Olympics first. Yeah, it was China's first day. I'm like, I'll just be I'll take three weeks off. Be great. Have a child. I would get to watch the whole the whole Olympics. Right. I never saw she came in on the fifth.

Using your Feng Shui here

and never saw the Olympics for three weeks because I basically didn't know what the hell I was doing for three weeks. I was like, I was just like a blur. And that's the thing, like you have a great plan, right? Mike Tyson always says, everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face. So that's exactly what happened. And I think the reason why I'm sharing this story is because oftentimes we're always planning for the best scenarios. And that's not necessarily the best way to plan. I think it's the best way to plan is what, you know, the...

Yeah. special first.

The Air Force does. When they go into a mission, they always plan three scenarios. They plan the best case scenarios, the worst case scenarios, and the most likely scenarios. And they would go through each scenarios because they wanna make sure that they know how to adapt in whatever scenario occurs and they already know what to do. Most of us plan for the best case scenario and that never happens. And all of a sudden now we have no idea. In mid-flight, we don't know what we're doing. And so I think it's important when we talking about strategies like what we've been discussing, whether it be, you know, avoiding burnouts or navigating burnouts or even anything we've been talking about, it's really important to make sure you have three different scenarios and make sure you've thought about this worst case scenarios. We're thinking about what could possibly go wrong because nothing goes to plan. And therefore, you know, how to adapt to cornering because you've at least thought it through and you know, how your escape routes and different routes to kind of get there. I think that will be my last ending advice when it comes to, you know, when on the topic of burnout, how to avoid it, how to navigate through it. So I hope that has been insightful. I hope this has been helpful. I hope that, you know, share that, hey, you're not alone if you're experiencing this right now. And if you are experiencing a point in your career in life where you just say, I don't know if I'm meant to do this, you know, I encourage you to kind of seek out how to encourage you to seek out gym or my help. to kind of find some guidance and perspective that you might need. And listen, Jim and I are actually running this great event called Practice and Beyond. Love for you to sign up for it. Go look for it. It's going to be coming in Barcelona in Jim's hometown at the moment in November. And so go to practiceandbeyond.co. That's practicingbeyond.co. Sign up for any new information that we're going to be coming. We'll be launching the ticket sales very shortly. But this is a great way. This is a perfect opportunity for those who are specifically who are entrepreneurial chiropractors. This is a great event.

Yes.

For us because we want to talk a lot a lot about things around of what else could be available to you Just other than practice. So guys, I hope this has been insightful of wabi-sabi episode Please again share this episode with others and Jim always a great pleasure to co-host this show with you and look forward to next week's episode

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