The 6 Courages

Welcome to this week's episode of Wabi Sabi. You and I both, obviously from our last week podcast, we talked about us traveling and speaking and you ran an event. I love to hear more about that. I was speaking in the UK and you know what? We talked about how it takes courage and we kind of teased this out, Jim. Like you just kind of left us in a cliffhanger and like listed out six courages and then just kind of like dropped it on us. So it was almost like I felt like we needed to do a part two of this series to kind of get this going. So today will be the sixth courage.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Um, and we want to talk a little bit about that. Then, and yeah. So why don't you introduce that, uh, title.

Yep. We do before we start, Lawrence, it would be remiss of me of this grand occasion for anybody who's not watching this on video. Lawrence is finally got to go. Yeah. Lawrence has finally gone through all the trials and tribulations and he's finally got his office set up. It's got this beautiful wooden paneling in the background. He's got his mic. He's all kitted up.

You need to go to one video.

And we just, I'm sorry, but we just couldn't launch into that without at least giving it some kind of acknowledgement or ceremonial arts.

Thank you. I'm back, baby. Like, I finally got turned on this computer and these get this mic on for over a year and My son was here actually when we were I turned the computer on and like, you know When they showed the email and or emails or something and messages and was like dad. Why does it say? 2022 Because like that's because this has been in storage just for a year now So yeah, great to be back. And yes, I love the setup so far and yeah, I hope this I hope the viewers like it, too

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. And you said to me as well, listen, if I, if you see me, this is just before we started recording. If you see me deviating from side to side, it's why Lawrence, why is that? Okay, yeah.

I actually, I'm standing on a wobble board at the moment and it's like a, almost like a skateboard. I don't, I don't skateboard or anything, but I bought this wobble board and you get the balance and it's just like, I'm just trying to train my proprioceptions and keep my body moving. And I figure somehow it will make my paddle better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah, I like it. Okay, and last week you also shared, speaking of that, your thumb was injured through, so how's it coming along? Have you adapted? How have you been in yourself?

Ah, yes. It's getting better. As you can see, it's a little bit bruised, not as badly as it was the first time. It's honestly, it still could be broken. I have no idea. I didn't get an x-ray yet because there's really nothing they can do, but it's getting better. I can't grip yet, but it's getting better. I'm hoping that I'll be able to pick up a racket next week and let's give it a go.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so you've been just training around that, training around the...

Yeah, I've been, I've been doing some crossfit still, uh, mostly MedCon haven't lifted any weights. Uh, just been a lot of doing and running burpees and you know, squats, air squats and stuff like that. And so I was able to kind of modify it. I think, you know, that's the thing, like, you know, if you think about, uh, it's funny, right? I had a, uh, I was, I was there and a couple of friends were there and like, and one of them sort of said, you know, a colleague of mine said, I said, Hey, because, oh, what are you doing here? Then with that thumb, like, I mean, if I had that thumb,

Yep. Yeah. Yep.

I would have taken two weeks off and just sit there and relax. And I'm like, no, cause I don't want to be, I don't want to have to come back two weeks later and have to fight through that pain of just being like, trying to fight back that fitness. And I'm like, I'd rather just do a little bit and as much as I can to kind of go in to do that. And I think, you know, let's talk about this courage thing. We've kind of talking about it because it leads into this, right? Cause one of the things I recognize is that, yeah, I'm injured and it does take a little bit of courage, I think take a little bit of courage and go like, okay,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

what can I do? What can I do to show up and still show up but actually do something? I think that could be a challenge for all of us because it's in our mind, right? Like, yeah, it's a thumb, right? I know it still seems so silly. But you know, let's face it, like you, you don't have your thumb, you can lose a lot of like action. But I was like, No, I can still show up, I can still run, I can still, you know, I can't do a burpee, I don't want to jump on the ground, but I can go down slowly, right? I can just modify the push ups with dumbbells just to hold on. So I don't have to put a stress on my finger.

Yep.

So like there's things that you can do. And I think what is this is less than this week has really taught me is like show up. That's one, okay. Two is modify, do whatever you can to do, like do something, right? You can always make changes. And I really found myself trying to make excuses, but then I realized I caught myself and go, you know what? No, like you don't have to make excuses. Like make it adaptation, adapt to something. And I think that's the mentality. I think, you know, that

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

I've really learned from our conversations through all of this that has really helped me really think through about life and every day to day activity. And I think to me that is the essence of what we started. We always said at the beginning of this podcast was, it's just us having a conversation and you listeners are actually just part of that conversation and hopefully enjoying it. Right.

Yep. Yeah, we're really doing it for ourselves really. And we've just, if people are voyeuristically just tuning in and just listening to a conversation, really that's the essence of it.

Yeah, yeah, I'm learning ton and I know that you are too. And it's, we're making each other better. I think that's the key element too. So anyway, so Jim, let's talk about the courage. Like let's describe it.

It's time, it's time. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to incorporate it. That's right. So there's actually what you were talking about. I was happy to keep you, let you keep going because it actually leads perfectly into the first form of courage I wanted to talk about. Right. And I'm going to give it one extra example. Now I'll go into it, which is a physical courage. It's just the first one. Right. So you talked about training around a broken thumb and the adaptations and I totally get it, the psychology that it sucks to give up.

her.

gains and then you have to get back and start that again. That first couple of weeks of getting your fitness back sucks. And I agree with you. I would rather do whatever it takes. And it hit me a lot because, you know, you and I've just before we podcasted today said, Hey, listen, I'm watching the Conor McGregor, um, a documentary on Netflix and right. And he was a perfect example of a guy who had a broken thumb as well, who's training and going, I can't do this, but I can do that. And that to me epitomized exactly what you were talking about. Right. So to me, the first level of courage that comes up that I want to talk about is the physical courage, right? Because most times when you talk about courage, most people think about this. They think about the, the, the, the battle, the physicality of, of, and what it takes to get into a fight, into a, onto a sporting field, into a contact muscle, whatever it is. And that

Mmm. bravado.

bravado. It's actually, that's what it is. It's effectively physical courage is really bravery. And there's something about this that psychologically, I really love to unpackage because when you talk to people who exhibit physical courage, they will risk they put their body on the line, sometimes for a game, for a sport, whatever. But you've also got a category of people who have taken this as a calling in their life, whether they are soldiers, whether they are, you know, firemen, you remember that the footage of

Hmm.

you know, twin towers going down, everybody's running this way, and you've got a group of guys turning around and running into danger. Now that, you know, we honor these people for doing that because it's valor and bravery, and it has to be, you have to override the natural primal instinct to go run away from danger. So let's unpackage physical danger and give it a perspective from your point as well too, Lawrence.

Hmm. Sure. Like I remember, uh, you know, I remember the first time I tried CrossFit. I avoided a CrossFit for so long and it was, it was, it was like, I think it was a mental thing. I was so scared watching like these big guys and muscular guys doing these crazy things. I'm like, I'm just not built for that. And when I found, when I moved from Perth to Sydney, I lost my trainers and I just thought like, okay, we're going to have to give this a go. Like I don't, I'm criticizing something I actually just don't know anything about. And so I showed up. And they had like a six week on ramp session. So we basically they take all the newbies and they go through a six week sort of on ramping just to make sure that you know, we don't burn us out on the very first, you know, wad, right? It's just what I slowly kind of amp up. I remember showing up. Yeah, yeah, except for just like easier way ease you into the pain, right. And I remember the very first time and I was dying, man. I was dying. I was like, I thought I was relatively fit, but I was like on the floor sweating.

It's show and tell, show and tell for basically for that right?

And I was thinking to myself, like, this, I'm like, I'm dying on the on ramp, like, what's gonna be when, when, you know, when actually actually join a class and, you know, slowly, surely, you start to gain your confidence and you start working on your skills and you start getting better. But I guess my point is, is that physical courage is something I never really explored until I sort of, you know, push myself through through that CrossFit. And one of the things that CrossFit did allow me to do, and I'm not

Hmm.

you know, anybody can see, but I'm not freaking massive. Like those Crossfitters, like I'm just, but I put my body through that, the rigorous of CrossFit training. And what it has taught me is two things. It has taught me that my body can actually produce a lot more than I actually thought. And that in itself goes to the second point, which is that it translate that ability to know that I got a little bit more in the tank has now translated into other areas of my life. And also, you know, for business and also in life, there's always something more. And it really taught me that mentally my physicality, my, it has taught me that my mentally was that I was just tapping out earlier than I thought. And I knew I had a little bit more in my, I didn't know I had a little bit more in me until I'd started to crossfit. So I think the physicality or what you think the physical courage is pushing my body and having the courage to go, okay, test my body, not like kill myself, but just like. tested a little bit more, I was able to and had a little bit competition have a little bit of people around me has really taught me that there's more than what I think I got. And so that's for me, that's the physical courage that I've experienced in my life.

Hmm. Nice and you know what's going to show up here is that it's just because someone you've outlined the the steps that you've taken to lean into the the physical courage, right? So we're going to go through another category or several categories of what we're going to talk about and You know, I'll declare physical courage for as long as I can remember. I've always been involved in Combat sports. I've always been involved in physical sports. So This one is the one that I can find my way of getting through. Some of the others, I'll go to water. So it's not just because you have courage in one area, you can exhibit courage across the board. And I'm definitely gonna share some examples of where the disconnect between those really shows up in people's lives and how it affects them. But for me, physicality, because I was taller and bigger than most people, I guess it gave me a... a persona, a bulletproofness, I guess, if you think about it, because most of my life I had a, there was a physicality around the way I went about things. I could walk through a situation and there was a presence and I acknowledge it in hindsight. And I, and I use that to my, to my advantage. What got me about Jujitsu? And a lot of times people say to me, what is it that connects you to, to that for you? It's a, um, the, you mentioned that the draw to crossfit for me, it was like, I finally went to a martial art that it was, did not matter what size you were, you could still get mauled by someone half your size. And what it did for me, who was used to just plowing through stuff, when I first went onto the mat, yes, getting through the drills was hard enough, but I got schooled by people half my weight and half my size. And I went, hang on a minute, this is not how this has always happened. This is not meant to be happening. And so

Mm. Hmm

And then I went back again, same thing. I got schooled and schooled and schooled on something when I am curious, how is it possible that you are defying all this? So to me, I had huge respect for people who had the physical courage to step on a mat to do that, but then also who gave up half their body weight against someone to fight against and still beat them. So to me, it stimulated the, the intrigue in me to go, how is that possible? And I need to know more.

Hmm. Yeah, I think it's really interesting because when you start to think about the perception that we have of ourselves, like I've never imagined myself, you know, lifting the weight that I've done. And even when I was in CrossFit, for about four or five years, I didn't do deadlifts very well because I told the story in my head that I can't. Because every time I did it, I hurt my back. And because I had a bad back. And that's the story I told myself. And that cognitive bias that I had,

Hmm. Mm.

affected my behavior and actions. And what I found interesting was like, it was, yeah, sure. I couldn't do it deadlifts, not because of bad back, because I had poor form. And because poor form, I had poor muscles, muscle engagement. And because of that, I'd never trained it. And because I never trained it, I was weak. So it wasn't like, because I had a bad back, it was just like, because of all these triggering thoughts around I had that made me think differently. And so really what I've learned over the few years is that, yeah, like, yeah, I can't.

Yeah. Yeah.

I may not be able to lift as heavy as some people based on my body weight, but I kind of look across and I'm like, I'm not trying to be a competitor. Like I'm not trying to be an open competitor. I can lift weights that are, you know, percentage wise, I think I'm doing pretty good. Cause I only weight like 68 kilos. And I've always imagined myself, you know, like I was always being made fun of that I had like ping pong legs, right? Ping pong legs is like, that's my game. There's no, I kind of have the strength as, you know, say someone like yourself, just natural DNA. But it doesn't mean that I can't. take on certain exercises for you, like for you, like, I know, like, for example, our body weight, if you put me on a pull up bar, and it's burpees and pull ups, I guarantee you right, I guarantee you is something that I can probably take someone like your size, because you have to lift your body weight where my body weight so what I can just kind of turn them over a lot faster. So it's like, I have certain that's what I love about the sport across it's like, I have my advantages in certain exercises where I can take on the biggest guys.

I'm stuffed. I'm stuffed. Yeah, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, yeah Yeah Hmm. Yeah. Yep.

And they have their advantages when they when they have, you know, when it comes to heavy weights. But the point of it is, is that is recognizing like your weaknesses and strength. But if you don't test, you don't have the courage to put your body through that physical toughness, you're never going to know what's capable, what your body's actually capable of. And I think that's the thing that we're trying to get at is that you've got, you know, the courage that we have to have is to push our body to that limit.

Great, that's a good distinction. And I think just before we move on, that would be a good summary to go, you have to override the primal part of your brain that says this is gonna hurt or there's danger here. And you have to be able to find a way to either quieten that down, neutralize it, or find a way of creating safety, even while you're navigating things that potentially are strenuous or harmful. So if you're playing... sport or football or et cetera, there's a level of physical courage that you have to do to step onto the oval or onto the ground and you have to accept what comes with it. But I just found that the more you do that, the more you lean into that. And that's why, I don't know if you've ever noticed it, Lawrence, but whenever women particularly say, I'm gonna go and get some personal training and we go, great, awesome, what are you doing? I'm just doing some boxing classes. The moment they put on gloves and start hitting a bag, they go. They love it. Like, it's a really prime, I'm not sure if you've ever noticed it, but they love it so much because there's a physicality which a lot of them up until that point may not have even had a reference for. And the moment they connect it, they lean into a physical courage or a discomfort that shows them something about themselves.

Yeah, we always got a tiger lion in us, right? And it's like finding that ability to kind of, to show up once in a while. And it's not like, I mean, we're all intelligent enough and also have the smart and the wisdom to allow it to show up when required, not, we have control over it, right? The problem is, is that perspective physicality is when people don't have control over it. And I think that's the mental game, but you need to know it's there. You need to know.

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

And this is where we see, you know, when there's an accident that happens and some, you know, a mother lifts the car up, you know, cause some babies, our kid is trapped underneath. Like those are the moments like it's in every single one of us. And it's just that it's got to be tapped in at a certain level.

Yeah, yeah. Great. Awesome. So I think that's a really good way of number one, talking about physical courage. The second courage that I'd love to expand on is a little bit different. It's social courage. All right. So with social courage, that's a tough one, man. Like, and we talked about this briefly last time, but fundamentally it's socially, you're, you're not wanting to be exposed. It's, it's picture someone who is going to prepare a speech or, you know, we talked about it with your son last week.

Mm. That's a tough one.

and the social courage of getting up there and talking in front of someone takes a lot of guts. If you are a writer, if you are creative, you write a song, you write a book, and the moment that you give birth to it and let it go, there's a level of social courage where you're going, I hope this is okay. There's a level of fear that you have to cycle through and work through it. They can just do anything, just put anything out there in public. So your thoughts on that one, Lawrence?

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I was watching the duck, oh, series on Ed Sheeran, the sum of it all on Disney. And it's very much like this where, you know, a lot of times as a, as a pop singers, you know, when he got to his fifth album, he's trying to release songs. And it's like, not caring as much about if it's whether it's going to be a pop sensation or not. He wants to put something out that that's meaningful and that's meaningful to him and tells the story.

All right.

But even though he even said, even though he says that, there was also a moment where he says like, but I still do care what people think of it, right? And so it was like that balance and being raw and authentic is really tough. And sometimes you're raw and authentic, authenticity, authenticity can sometimes, you know, catch you up, right? It's just like sometimes it's very difficult to be exposed. Social care, social courage is something that I had to really, really learn because

Yes.

I was, I don't think I was socially awkward, but I wasn't very sociable when I was younger. Through high school, I just wasn't, I just, from a physical holiday point, I was a nerd. I think I mentioned this before. And I just didn't have the social cues to really, or the exposure or the experience, I guess the experience to really be better at it. And it wasn't until university where I was kind of exposed a little bit more and then I had to learn to step in.

Yep. Yep. Hmm.

And I think each stage of my life, you know, every time I moved cities, like went from, you know, high school to university, I had, I knew I had a chance to kind of be someone different and I had to lean in a little bit socially. And then I had to learn and get feedback. And then when I went from the university to chiropractic college, I, you know, got that again, so like, okay, got to lean in a bit more. So it definitely was a challenge for me, you know, so if any listeners like, Oh, I don't have any of these courages. I'm like, well, trust me, we didn't all born with all these things. Like, I think, you know, we might have a really good one or.

Yep.

two out of the six, but for me, social was really hard. And I still, and awkward, I feel still, I'm very challenged by it, that I have to really, really be intentional to step into it every single time. I didn't like that we were just on the weekend, for example, away and I didn't know everybody. I definitely don't, you know, they may know me, I have no idea, but it was one of those things that I had to like really get out of my comfort zone to go now, like I need to.

Yep. Hmm.

show up, go say hi, go talk to people. And that, yeah, that's still uncomfortable for me. I'm still learning. I feel like I'm getting better at it. But the benefits of that, the benefits of that are, man, it's so amazing. Cause I realized that I'm not the only one. There's probably only about 10 or 20% who are really socially great and have that, you know, this just comes easy to them to have that social power. But most of us are probably just waiting for someone else to step in. And so if I took the courage first,

Yeah.

and makes them feel a little bit better about it.

Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, even just like you, what you and I do, we, we, we write things, we record things, we put them out there, we record a podcast, that's social courage, you know, because there'll be people who might go home and this sucks and it's like, okay, I appreciate your feedback. I really do. I'm still going to do it. I'm still going to keep going and doing it. I'll get better at it, but it does take a level of social courage to lean into the awkwardness and your own fear that goes, dude, you put it out there. It could be terrible. People could hate it and whatever. And the truth is, no matter, like you said, even with Ed Sheeran, Ed Sheeran still has to cycle through that as great and talented as amazing as a musician he is, he still has to cycle through that journey. So anybody else who's not Ed Sheeran is also had a great opportunity to expand that within themselves. Yeah.

Well, they don't have the pressure. Like most of us don't have the pressure of like having to like best out our last hit album, or our last hit song. So, I mean, this message is clear for those people who are thinking about doing a podcast, thinking about shooting a video, releasing a song, writing a book, releasing a blog, whatever it is, like you're afraid to do, like this is the message for you. I think it's just to just give it a go. And it's like, we all got here somewhere by releasing one episode at a time.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And you know, my, I like you to I, I'm an introvert by nature, actually. So that's, that's just my, so I have to cycle through that to get to to put things out there. And it was made worse, because when we moved countries, same sort of thing, I then had to learn that element in another language as well. So I've cycled through it a couple of times. But I'm a lot better at it now to the point where I go, listen, you know, this is who I am, I'm just going to work on it. But it interesting, my eldest son, he's like 27 now, when he was 12 or 13, he probably actually a little bit younger than that, he was interested in being an actor. And so he went and we took him to theater classes and musicals and stuff. And what amazed me when I went to this class where they were teaching, I'd see 16, 17 year old boys and girls, young adults. look you straight in the eye with a level of confidence and certainty and I just went, whoa, that was amazing. So it really left an impression on me about how the discipline of putting yourself out there regularly builds up kind of calluses on your brain that gives you the confidence to do that again and again. So you're not coming off, if you're coming off a low base it's gonna be a big stretch to get out there and talk in front of 50,000 people, but you had to have been prepared to. go at bat several times and keep doing that consistently as a discipline to develop the confidence over time. Right. Yep. Yep. And the other thing is he was, when he was 16, he was a model, right? He did a lot of modeling way out of the sun. And he, you know, when we talked about some of the other challenges that came up, he goes, listen, I've trained you Jiu-Jitsu and I've been a model and the critique and the criticism you have to cycle through to even just get up every day.

That's right. I mean, it all adds up. It all adds up.

I'm not scared of anything in those areas. So it's really highlighted to me that the environment that you put yourself into, that challenges you regularly, helps develop that element within you. And so whether it's physical or social courage, repetition and exposure therapy, so to speak, is gonna help you cycle through.

Love it. I love it.

All right, so let's move into the third form of courage. And this one's starting to get a little bit heavier now and it's moral courage, right? Now, yeah, I can hear the curiosity in your voice there. So moral courage is as a summary, would be having the courage to stand up for something that you believe in that may not necessarily be consensus. It might not be the view around you, but you know within yourself that it's the right thing.

Hmm, okay. I'm sorry. Hmm.

or it's the right thing to you. And it's having the courage to make a stand or take a stand and have your voice heard to make a point.

All right. I will readily admit that I think I'm low on this. Like I think if it's a strong moral thing that I definitely would stand up. But I think if it's sort of like those borderline, like why know what I stand for? And, but yet like I know that it will be socially unacceptable, say, let's just say that there's a topic like that. I think I tend not to step in there. And that's something that I'm working on. I mean, I had to really wrestle through that over the last few years for sure.

Yeah. Yep.

You know, I was, yeah, that's definitely one of my weaker one, not, not because I'm not morally right. But it's, it's like having, but I think that there's a difference. I think that's what you're talking about. This is that morally consciousness, that's good, but the courage to step in, you know, um, to, to affect others. That, that becomes a challenge for me.

Yep. Yeah. Well, you know, when you study people through history, a lot of the times, yeah, we erect statues for people who exhibited physical courage and we give them badges of valor, you know, but moral courage is right up there. You think of Rosa Parks sitting on a bus and going where there's segregation and told, okay, this is for this, you know, you're as a colored person, aren't entitled to be here, have heard her go, no, I'm making a step. That's moral courage.

Hmm Yeah. Yes.

You know, and that would challenge people who are exceptionally comfortable in physical courage, who would lean into that. So this is my whole point is who have a perception that you're physically courage, a 10 foot tall and bulletproof. And yet would you have done what she did or would you stand up for injustice or discrimination or whatever, whatever the cause is that makes you feel that. And a lot of the times what they basically say, anytime you try to. negotiate with someone, the hardest area to get people's paradigm to change is through moral, the moral paradigm, the moral frame. So when you said morally, I believe like all of us know deep within ourselves what is right or wrong, what constitutes the right thing or the wrong thing. For one other reason, we will override that and take another course of action. But at a really deep level, and this is what I find with coaching, is when people are... in contradiction to those things, they'll either sabotage themselves or they'll get an outcome and they just can't enjoy it because they know it's in conflict. So an example would be, you know, imagine you advocate health and you are benefiting incredibly well financially from something that harms people from health perspective. So at some point you've gone, okay, this is important to me, but I'm making a lot of money as a result of it. So there's a moral conflict.

Yeah.

And this is actually a really tough one in humanity.

Yeah, I think like if I look back at my wife, for example, Karen, I think she has a really strong more moral courage to be able to kind of stand up and you know, in situations like when it's quick and decisive, I always want to have to sit back and like just observe where she can actually just go right at it. And I think it is a challenge. I think, you know, when you said about Rosa Park, I think a lot of us would like to say or feel that we would have done that.

Hmm.

But I'll really admit that I am not sure if I was putting it. It's easy to say that on a stage or whatever, but if I put myself in that situation, like would I? I don't know. I just would not know. And that's the honest truth, right? And I think that's what we're.

Yeah. 100%, yeah, yeah. Most of us don't know, Lawrence. Most of us don't know. We talk up a big game, but when the rubber meets the road and you're put in that scenario where you're going, there are huge repercussions here for your decision. You're going to go left or right. You know, it's, it's really easy to say, yeah, I would, unless you're right in the heat of it.

And I think that, yeah, so that's what my point is, is that I think most of us would like to think that we've done it and it's easy to kind of contextualize it and theorize, but when it comes to doing it, I don't know if most of us would, and that's why those statues, you know, or those, the memorial of those people are so rare, right? It's because there's not that many who actually would do it.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think that's a fair point. I think that's a fair point because there's all the repercussions, all the, basically the scare tactics, whatever the repercussions of being the person who stands up and, and challenges consensus in everybody else at a lot of times at the risk of their own livelihood, at their own, basically the risk of their own safety, you know, whistleblowers look at that, you know, quite often. We have to have, you know, a lot of the times they were sacked when they're doing the right thing. And you have to have whistleblowing legislation to protect people who are doing the right thing because it's the right thing. Because a lot of the times there's pushback and repercussions as a result of that. So it's huge, huge moral courage. So, yeah. And like I said, historically, you look back through and you can say that would have taken a lot of gumption, a lot of...

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a big one.

courage to step in through that one. I think you're right. You've highlighted perfectly. We don't know what would be like. And I think the only thing that would override it is if something meant more to us than life itself, that's when we'd actually go, I don't care whatever it takes. I'm actually, I mean, I can't go against this. So that's a big decision, particularly when it relates to career changes for people, generally shows up quite a lot. So if you thought that one was big, the next one, emotional courage. is a huge one. It is. It is. Yeah, it does. It's not the temperature in the room, in your new room that's going up. It's there. Like it's deliberately designed to be confronting. But emotional courage is really, you know, Brene Brown particularly has been talking a lot about this over quite a few years. And it's really about the power of vulnerability. Now, emotional courage is quite

And these are just getting harder and harder. Does it go up here? Okay. All right, all right, let's go. It's getting hot.

mask up that I want to show what's going on. They don't want to communicate that they may be having a problem or struggle. So consequently they're like, yeah, I'm fine. Everything's great. She's good. No problems here. When in actual fact, they're hurting inside. And so emotional courage is really the preparedness to say, not overshare, not to get you to say, Hey, I'm, I'm, I need some help. I can't do this by myself. Can you help me?

Yeah, that's one of those things I think, especially for men, I think it's really challenging. And that's obviously, I think over the last five years, though, I think more and more focus has been on this. And I think it's starting to make a shift and make a difference. It's still very difficult though, because you're talking about 30, 40 years of living that way for especially for sort of people in our generation, that can be really challenging to break up that story. And it affects everything that...

Yep.

uh, you do and how you act and also can go a long way. I just came back from, um, uh, having lunch with a friend of mine here and, you know, as unfortunate, I won't name any names, but, uh, you know, unfortunately, you know, he's, uh, just got some diagnosis from his, about his wife and it's not good, you know, or, you know, it's terminal and, uh, he's, you know, he's younger than me, I think. And like we're talking weeks and months and it's You know, and you can just tell the hard part is desperately needing help, but afraid to ask it. You know, and that's the emotional thing that being vulnerable to go, I don't want to inconvenience anybody. But even though all of us are like there leaning in to go, hey, like anything you need, like just say it and we're there. But that's challenging, right? For someone who like, you know, for, especially for people who have.

Yep.

you know, haven't had that courage to be vulnerable to, to, to show that side. It's very hard. And that's what I mean by it can change the behavior and actions and then possibly the outcome of how things can turn out whether or not you're vulnerable enough to ask for help. And traditionally, a lot of people struggle through business in their, you know, in their lives or their relationship, not asking for help because they feel like, man, this is only happening to me. Why is it? But the reality is, you know, you and I both coach people. And we know like, I mean, I had a client who came up to me and say that today. He goes like, am I like, is this happened to everybody else? Or is it just me? I'm like, no, dude, like, this is, you know, this is the story I hear every single day. Like you, to you, it might be like, you're the only person who's going through this, but it happens all the time. But that's the thing, because we don't talk about it. We don't talk about our problems. We don't talk about like how difficult business can be or relationship can be. And because when we're not willing to open up,

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

then we're never really gonna get to the core. I mean, we can talk about strategy all we want, but the reality is actually how you emotionally deal with this. How do you have the emotional strength to kind of ride through this and the mental fortitude to go through this emotionally. That's what is important because at the end of the day, we all wanna be happy, don't we? Like we just wanna be happy. And so how do you do that? And I think being emotionally vulnerable to allow people to help you and to reach out and to be able to share like your deepest feelings. End this with one more thought here.

Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

which is I think people need to remember, or this is something I realized, I guess, that when things happen, when you have an emotion, when you have some sort of emotion that comes through you, you don't, can't really control that. You feel what you feel, do you know what I mean? Something makes you angry, something makes you happy, or something makes you pissed off or frustrated. You don't need to justify it. You just need to be aware of it and acknowledge, this is how I feel.

Hmm. Yeah.

And you have to be able to, I've learned over the years of being married, it's like I have to have the courage emotionally to be able to say to my wife and going, it's not you, but like, but when you do this, like, you know, this makes me feel this way. Like it's not, I'm not blaming her. I'm just letting her know that when something like that happens, it makes me feel caught up, whatever it is, fill in the blank.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I have to have the courage to say that, but most people, and I've done this many times when I don't say anything. But then what does that do? Like just, you know, eats at me and makes it worse and I start blaming us. I mean, you just create these stories, but the reality is just like, I just feel what I feel. Like I can't control that. I don't like it that I felt that way, but I did. So I should be aware of it and I should talk about it, right? I should actually be vulnerable enough to go, hey, you know, there's no judgment. I hope that...

Hmm. Yep. Yep.

you know, my wife and I can talk about this with no judgment and realize, I'm like, let's try to get to the cause of why does that make me feel that way? And oftentimes it's probably something that, you know, affected me when I was younger, right. And therefore it's a trigger. It's like a memory. I'm like, okay, now we know. And then now we can actually kind of go through that process and try to, you know, not fix it, but just kind of navigate through it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because traditionally in culture and society, we've conditioned that as a sign of weakness. And when you actually do that, when you're trying to get clear in your own identity and get some sort of stability, giving up basically something that may give you a mark of respect is a really difficult thing to do. I'm really, this is a real, out of all of them, this is probably the one that's changed my life the most without question, because I was always the 10 foot 12

Ahem.

Bulletproof guy as well. And, you know, probably over the last 10 years, I've been involved in men's health, um, movements a lot because I went through a period of Monteserrat before I lost like four friends in a month to suicide. And every one of them were physically courageous. Every one of them could have a social presence and yet, but they couldn't connect with what was going on for them. They tried to make it wrong. They couldn't.

Wow. Hmm.

reach out and ask for help. So consequently got too much. And you know, it's really hard for anybody who gets left behind, their immediate family and the powerlessness that these left-wing people around there because people can't work through that. So I've made it a mission to make sure that I table that as an important topic. And a lot of the times I'll go first. It's almost as if it's modeling that and making it okay. When my... When my dad died a few years ago, my dad was a very stoic European male and hard as rock and granite. And I do remember that the, you know, in the last week before he passed away, he'd lost all ability to control bodily functions. And here he was lying in his bed and the look of shame that he had, where he had to look me in the eye and say,

Mm-hmm.

Can you help me? I don't think, I never saw my dad cry my whole life, except for last week of his life. And they really left a mark on me, you know? And I realized how hard that was for him, you know, in his eighties, never exhibiting emotional courage and the emotional courage to cycle through and let me know what was going on. So I saw the toll on him and I modeled that behavior as a kid up until I realized that this can't go on, you know? the biggest and hardest area for me would have been that emotional courage that I had to really lean into. And it's been more terrifying than taking on anybody in any combat that I've ever done, the emotional depth that I had to go to to just cycle through it, I can't fathom. So this is why it's really good for people to go, yeah, I can do that very easily. I can ask for share and ask for help. Yeah, you don't understand, man, I was terrified. because it meant that I was less than. So...

Yeah, it's a powerful story. It's a powerful story. And I think that one of the things that, you know, I've made a conscious effort when the kids were young, I might've told the story, but like, I remember crying and making sure I would cry in front of them. Not like forcing my friend, like when if something came up emotionally is not to shy away from it, you know, and to really show the pure emotion of how I really felt. And it could be, I remember purely one time was when I made a mistake, you know, and I was apologizing to my son.

Yep.

And for the mistake that I did, you know, I can't remember exactly what it was, but maybe it was something like I said something that I shouldn't or judged him or maybe I was a bit short or whatever it was. And I apologized in front of it. And I, and, and it, and just this flood of emotion came through me. And, but I, you know, you can easily kind of shut that down and just walk away. But I'm like, no, no, no way. I need to just like, I'd be intentional. Like, I hope this is the way to do it. And then I just don't know whether or not that's going to be the right way, but I want to show that to them. It's like, it's okay. Like it's okay to let, no, two things, right? One is, you know, your dad can cry, man can cry. Like it's fun, this part of the process. And two is also that, to let them know that, hey, I screw up too, you know, I'm a grown person and I make mistakes and I want you to know that, that I apologize and I want you to know that, hey, we got to own up our mistakes at that time. So like, I think that is one way we can kind of shape the next generation. Not only does it help you, but I think it also helps the next generation. and hopefully continues.

Nice, nice. Well, we've cycled through the real deep emotional ones, Lawrence, they're gonna get a bit lighter now. So the fifth area of courage that we want to talk about is intellectual courage. And so intellectual courage is really in a nutshell, the ability or the willingness to challenge your own assumptions, to work out whether, hey, there's something that's, you know, like what I thought up until now was what I thought yet more information has come to hand, challenges me and the courage to basically go, I used to think this, now I'm starting to think that. Not because you're being flippant, but you've thought it through and went, there's a better way or a different way. So let's talk about intellectual courage and particularly along the lines of consistency and like sunk loss, fallacies, and all those kinds of things where we don't wanna show that we were incorrect.

Sure. Yeah, so this message is for my daughter who's listening and then your dad is right. No, I'm just joking.

This episode is dedicated to you.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no, no, I'm just joking. She's a great girl. Um, I know she listens to the podcast every single week and then it gets released. So I'm, I'm proud of that. Um, no, I think, you know, that's intellectual courage. I was wondering where you were going to go with this. For me, I would say that that took me a long time too. It took me a while because, um, I felt that, you know, I think this is probably like all, all parents, all kids, right? When you go through your teenage years and you go through your university years and you kind of think, hi, I know everything. Like I know more than my parents. And I think in your teenage years, you always try to figure out that you know more. And then there's not until probably I say mid-20s when you start really like, oh, maybe my parents were right about certain things. And, but I think we all have to go through that cycle. I think we all have to kind of go through that cycle. And that's the beginning of when you know that you challenge your assumptions that maybe you weren't right. And it's hard to, I think it's really difficult for someone, for any of us to kind of take a stand on something.

Hmm.

especially when you have the social courage to put it out there, that challenge now is now going, I have now created an identity, because if you have the social courage to stand out and say, I believe in X, whatever that is, right? And all of a sudden now you've actually created what we call an identity. And so now it just kind of creates a predicament for you because now if your assumptions was wrong, you have two things you can do here.

Yep. Yep.

which is what you talk about the intellectual courage just say it was something that intellectual. So it would be like, one, you can not just stand down and say, you know what, I screwed up, I have to up and I was wrong. But most of us wouldn't do that. Most of us will double down on their identity because that's the identity we identify with and that's how we got socially credits for being that identity. And so therefore we doubled down. And if any fact, we just go down that deeper into that rabbit hole.

Correct.

And we see that all the time. If you watch any news, you know, especially the left and right or the really political sides on anything, it's really difficult to change your mind on any identity or any belief that you're strongly held onto because it takes so much courage to do the first thing. And now you have another courage to kind of counteract that. Oh man, that's tough. That's tough.

Yep. Correct. It is. And particularly, scientific rigor talks about the importance of bringing the most recent, most relevant evidence present, and you have to challenge your hypotheses regularly. And so if you're not prepared to do that, scientists, by definition, should be excelling in intellectual courage. That's it. OK, it should be.

Should be. Hahaha.

And what happens is a lot of the times they go, no, like you said, I'm doubling down on this. I've made a point, I've gone out there, I've put myself out on the line. Now everything I'm going to look for is going to be a confirmation bias to conform that initial social identity or social point irrespective of whether there may be information that's presented that's contrary to that. And it takes a special person to go, hey, I've now realized that what I thought isn't correct. I think I need to change my actions, my thinking. et cetera, et cetera. So look, you know, without getting too topical, the last couple of years have been hugely, it's a big social experiment of intellectual courage, right? And people who were or were not prepared to challenge their own assumptions, either way they looked at and look what it got us.

Okay. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and I said that right from the beginning of that, or midway, and it was like the downfall isn't whether or not one is proven right or wrong. The downfall is the leaders of this world holding onto their ideas so strongly because they have put everything on the line to hold onto these ideas. And there's not that many who would go, no, you know what, I screwed up the last few years, so sorry, right? And like, you know, when I'm trying to make anything of this, but like that's an example.

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

of having the intellectual courage to go, you know what, hey, based on things I know now, and there's a few people who've done that, which is I commend them. Like I don't know about you, but for anybody who takes the intellectual courage to be able to step in and go, you know what, I was this way, I thought this way and I screwed up. I mean, I have so much respect for me. Like, you know, when someone does that. And because it's just, and this is goes with anything. Like we, you know, we're...

Yep. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

This could be in relationships or it could be the way you view the world and certain things. Like I've just, I've been flip-flopping through many different topics in my life because I don't, I'm not an expert at everything. Nor do I try to actually be one. And, and sometimes like I've gone through life and say, you know what? Yeah, I kind of messed up. We just talked about this with my kids. It's like, yeah, you know what? I, I messed up. And it's, it, that takes a massive amount of courage, I believe to go, um, to say to someone like, yeah, my thoughts on that was, uh, irrelevant and wrong. But it's like, that's why I find it really interesting about balancing between that social intelligence, social courage versus the intellectual courage, because I think they kind of go hand in hand.

Yep. It's huge. And like you said, you're going to get validations. And if you take a stand in a particular view, you'll have people, you'll be the voice of people who have a shared view. What happens to all of those people when suddenly you go, I used to think this. Now I think that suddenly it creates confusion in everybody else. And you'll probably get backlash from people, not because you considered more information, but it's like, Hey, man, you changed the rules or we, we, we went down this. So I agree with you. That takes a lot of courage as well. And We don't appreciate just how hard that is for a lot of people to change your perspective of view because they challenge their own assumptions and beliefs. So I think that's a huge one, which does go hand in hand with social.

I think you're in a lot of trust and credibility when you do that. Like when you're able to kind of question your own assumptions, that it just goes, it's just more proof that you are more believable. Because you're not just believing just because, you know, you've just done one research or you've done it one way. You've actually thought through the gamuts of decision-making and actually come to, you know, certain type of reasoning. And you also know, like, hey, this person has done the work and also may be wrong. I think there's a lot of times like we've done

Yep.

Like a lot of times we just can't say like, I fully believe in this. Well, really anything you, any, I remember just listening to someone say, anytime you say, I believe X, that's not true. Like, you don't know if it's true. Like anything is like, that's just, it's a belief. It could be proven wrong at some point, you know? The only thing that's true is like, any hard evidence, like this is a mic, okay? Like that's true, right? But anything else, I believe X, well, hey, right there and then like, it's most likely can be proven wrong at some point. So it's being able to go, you know what?

Mm. Yeah.

this is my opinion, you know, and then, and then learn to kind of navigate through that based on what we've been talking about.

Yeah. Yeah. And before I get to number six, which anybody who's listening, who's going, okay, you've got to finish off with number six. Don't finish before you go. No, no, no, can't tease it out. We can't tease people for that already. But it's like, if you overlay all of the six things that we're talking about today, whether it's in your life, your world, your business, there are going to be multiple opportunities and situations where you're going to be asked to confront social courage, intellectual courage, emotional courage in your work.

Ask for next episode.

in your relationship with your kids, et cetera, et cetera. So it's not like the reason why we shared this was because it's equally applicable to multiple areas of your life and world. And so that's something to remember because you might suddenly go, hey, they were talking about it in terms of this, but this is just equally as applicable in that area. And that's really the power of this kind of a discussion is that there's multiple directions that they can go. So the sixth one, Lawrence, for people who have been eagerly waiting for number six, is spiritual courage. And spiritual courage is kind of similar to intellectual courage, but the challenge is with intellectual courage, there will quite often be information that comes that may answer a question that may change things. But spiritual courage, what happens when you don't have the answers? When you're dealing with life and death and why does this happen and how come there's, all these kind of experiences in life that don't necessarily have an answer. you're actually then dealing in your own personal growth and transformation. And to me, the courage to, you know, if you've been doing life one way and you suddenly go, I need to do things differently, it takes a lot of courage to reinvent yourself, almost get to the point of like getting to the ashes and rebuilding again. And sometimes that's, that's the spiritual journey of being prepared to let go of identity and attachments. And, and all that you knew and gave you certainty, which is really, there's an element of spiritual courage that we've both gone through that I think, a lot of times that's the recurring thing people say, is like, we had to let go of identity, attachments, our own growth, confront, all those kinds of things we've talked about along the journey. And this is a tough one because there's not, isn't always a right and wrong answer. It's just the growth and journey that we're all on.

Yeah, I've always loved I'm gonna screw this up I think but there's this quote around that we're not you know We're not human beings, you know going through a spiritual journey but we're spiritual beings who are you know, living in a human experience and

Yeah, Wayne Dyer talks about that. You didn't stuff it up, you got it right on. You channeled it in a Wayne Dyer and you got that one out. That's awesome.

Okay, great, perfect. I was hoping my spirit would just kind of like, just let that flow and just come out of nowhere. So channel it out. Yeah, absolutely. And to me, I learned that or heard that probably maybe like 25, 30 years ago, and it just resonated with me and it's been sitting in my brain and to remind myself once in a while, and thanks for bringing this up again, because it just reminds me of doing that. It's like, you know, we are just going through this human experience that we are going through. And... And those are, and the human experience requires you to go through all the emotions that we've been talking about, you know, all obviously the love, happiness but that joy, but that also has to be balanced out with anchor, frustration and fear. And this is, you know, courage, as we've been talking about is part of that journey. It's that we have to find something within ourselves. And it says, how much are you willing to step in? How much are you willing to engage? How much are you willing to step into all six of these, you know, encourages that we've been talking about and spiritual is that? ability to be able to go, what's the, are you able to let go of the identity that you have for yourself? And I think this is what I've been talking about. Like I was thinking about, like, as I was going through this, as you were talking, it was like these courges all require you to shake up your identity. And that's really tough, right? Because we, we all, we all need identity to kind of label ourselves or at least, you know, find a place in, in, in, in tribe and community, right? Or figure out where we place in the world. But at the same time, every time we label ourselves and identify ourselves in a certain way, all of a sudden then we have to learn to let go of that identity to take on a new one. And that's the challenge. I think this is what we've been discussing really comes down to that courage of all of those things to fight against them. That spirituality, spiritual courage, I take it is fighting through that. Is that allowing the spirit to live that next human experience, whatever that might be. And rather than just living the same one.

Yeah, and it's, yeah, totally. And it depends on, you know, people, you know, there's spirituality comes in through here. It's not necessarily religion. We're not talking religion, but we're talking the spiritual journey that we all go through, you know? What's the meaning of life? You know, what's my purpose? You know, what's my spiritual, all those kinds of questions, those big pondering questions that we all have that we don't always have an answer to, this is the realm of that. And it's really the courage to keep growing, keep expanding, keep learning, keep improving self, which is really, it takes a different form of courage to all of those other ones and it's no less scary.

I was listening to an interview with, I can't remember which podcast I was listening to, but it was with Naval Ravikon. And he talked a lot about a single player game, a single player game. And you know, living in a single player game and also playing games, you know, in games we have, you know, games we have, sorry, the game of life, we have multiple games we play, financial game, relationship games and stuff. And he said the trick is in order to become successful, whatever quote unquote successful means or happiness.

Yeah.

is really about learning to play a game. And this is with Derek Sivers as well. He talks a lot about this is like winning, it's learning to play a game. And then once you won the games and knowing to step away from that game, and to play a different game, you don't have to continue to be the better, better, better player, you know, to get better in that game over and over again. So if you want monopoly, and you're like the king, and you've actually reached the topic, you don't need to continue playing just to prove to everyone that you're the king. Like you can just walk away and learn how to play, I don't know, a game of life or a scythe or a katana or something else. So it's really interesting to kind of think that way. And it brought me to my career, for example, as a chiropractor. I felt like, I mean, I achieved everything. I don't know how I got this feeling. 10, nine, 10 years ago, I just felt like, I've done everything I could. I didn't think I would get there that fast, but I think I've won that game. I don't like...

Yeah.

I had to make a conscious effort to find the courage to go, you know what, I think there's a different game for me to play. And I think I've done it all. And to fight against all my friends, colleagues, and everything that I've set up to that point that I was gonna practice till the day I die, all of that thing took a massive amount of time and courage to be able to fight that and go, no, I think you're done with this game. And I think that there's another game for you to play. And that's hard to do.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

for anybody but it's also available for anybody to do. And so the game of life has multiple games, know when you won, know when you can step away and play another game.

Yeah, nice. Yeah, I like that. So I'm going to summarize and wind up and let you finish off. What I would like people to take away from this particularly is that courage is not a one size fits all form of courage. There's multiple avenues, and that's what we talked about. Six, there are probably some more, but they're the six that keep showing up, and I found a lot of understanding in them. The key is that at any one time, you're going to be confronted by any one of those. And just because you are excellent and able and comfortably lean into one form, in another form you may be paralysed by it and sheer terror stops you leaning into that area, which ultimately holds you back in some way, shape or form, whether it's in your capacity to connect with people, whether it's in your capacity to find fulfillment and joy in life or find the ultimate joy within what it is that you do. So I think the purpose of today was really just to create an awareness around that and perhaps explain to people why certain areas of their life may be working really well or may be challenged because there are areas or things that they need to lean into to help them develop and become who they need to be in order to progress and move to the next level of growth or fulfillment in there. So I think that's all I'm going to say. Lawrence, I'll let you wind up and summarize and close us out.

Sure, there's probably two things I want to say regards to courage. I think one, thank you for bringing up the topic, Jim. I think that's been awesome to go through each of six of those. And I would say that I think we need to challenge ourselves beyond the physical courage and social courage, which most people tend to kind of go after. I think there are the other four are just as important, if not more important than those first two. So I would I would challenge people to take on the other four. our courage is in their life, some way or another. The second thing I would say is that, I think in order for you to actually have courage, you need to start to commit to something. We talked about this earlier with the four Cs. You gotta commit to something. When you commit, there's actually all of a sudden you got fear and then fear that pops up. That's when the courage occurs. And the courage is like that second step. When you actually able to find that courage, then the work begins. That's when you actually have to find all the capabilities that you need to accomplish whatever you want to accomplish. And without that courage first though, it's really difficult for you to actually go and explore and what you don't know, because you wouldn't have stepped in the ring. And until you get into the ring, you don't know what you don't know, and you don't know what you're missing. So therefore, the courage is that first tipping point, just like awareness is. And then that's when the learning begins is after the courage occurs not before. So you don't need to know things before the courage happens. It's usually when you know things is after the courage. Happened so I hope that you guys enjoyed this episode and it was a great one I felt there was a you know going through that some six things I didn't think about I love for you guys to maybe comment or maybe message us around What is the strongest courage that you ever done or maybe what and then also maybe what is the weakest? Courage that you need to kind of dive into so I'd love to hear more about that Because please make sure you share this podcast with everybody else on Spotify on iTunes on YouTube wherever you can find this podcast Please share with us because that's the way we can get the message across to more people because we want to make an impact. Until next time, please subscribe to us and we will see you on the next episode of What We Sub.