The Courage to Be Wrong

Welcome to Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. This podcast is all about really just figuring your life out as we go along. So the topic of today is kind of funny actually, because Jim just kind of gave us like, we don't have anything to talk about. Let's do this one. then like, so the topic is Jim, would you like to introduce it to us?

What, uh, sure. So what if we're wrong? You know, it's learning to, to love being incorrect, right? And we may be totally wrong in even podcast recording this one, but you know what? We're going with it. I think it's what, what if we're wrong? What if we read the room wrong? You know, like stuff it, we just, uh, try again, rock up next week. It could, it could be, it could be. So look, I think there's, think the, the, the, that appealed to me initially was.

And so. And choosing this. That's right. What if we're wrong? This could be the shortest WabiSafi podcast.

Um, you know, there's times where you, for all intents and purposes, the path is really clear. go, yep, this is where I'm going. This is what I'm, uh, doing. then somewhere along the way, evidence suggests that that wasn't the right thing to do. You know, that wasn't the right direction, you know, and the temptation quite often is, you know, we've got the cop, we've spoken about aspects of before the confirmation bias where you just want to double down and just prove you were right rather than cut your losses. Um, course correct and try again. I think that perhaps that's something that we could use as a thread to discuss because there's certainly been times where I think that's happened for me where I just didn't want to admit to myself that I had made an error and just went through it and then consequently this just made it a bigger problem.

You know, I think the world's really kind of comes down to this fundamental fact, right? The fact of the matter is that most of us don't want to be wrong. And you know, you can actually, we'll talk about maybe how to utilize that into your origin of leverage, but the reality is that most of us don't want to be wrong. And so I think once someone, as soon as someone commits to an angle or someone commits to a path of thinking, they tend not to, they almost kind of create a stake in the ground. So whenever they verbalize it, whatever they talk about, I just say they talk about it in a podcast or do it on a video or even just share an opinion with a friend. They tend to now once they kind of claim that line in the sand of how they what they believe in x, whatever x is, they really will most likely find evidence to prove that particular thing they stand on to be correct. And so as they continue to do this, it will only reinforce that. And then it creates an echo chamber as well, whether you watch enough videos or you watch YouTube or listen to podcasts and listen to friends who then collect that feedback loop to make you right. And then all of sudden now it gives you more confidence in the thing that you believe in. And really that's sort of like the stemming. of like these, you know, we'll call it conspiracy theories when people are sort of moving into that angle is because they do believe in it and it's being reinforced. Now I'm not saying conspiracy theories are wrong or right. I'm not like, I'm not judging it. I'm just saying this is sort of how people kind of get into a position that oftentimes because there's a fundamental human nature not to prove yourself wrong, if that makes any sense. And it's also, It's also easy for other people to dismiss another idea by just calling conspiracy as well. So like I see both sides of those things, but I think it's overall, just, I'm just looking at the human nature as human beings, what do we tend to do and what we tend not to do. And I think it's that we don't want to be fundamentally wrong because it makes us look stupid and it makes us feel like we bet on the wrong horse. And so therefore we all there's a part of us that's instinctively. We'll put. everything on the table to ensure that we feel right, whether that is right or wrong.

Yep. Yep. And a lot of times I've actually seen this explained, uh, I think was Tony Robbins in his book, um, years ago, where that first starting point is like the table top and that is your belief. So it starts off with a belief. And then what you were saying spot on is the, the references or the evidence are like the legs that support the table. So that they're kind of like, the confirming that this belief is accurate. Now what's absolutely fascinating, I'm not sure if you ever had this at school, where the teachers would actually go, okay, we're gonna have, we're gonna debate a topic. And it doesn't matter what your belief is, your objective is to have this view and this perspective. And so once you start with a starting point, your job then was to actually find evidence that will support that initial theory. Now you argue black and blue with someone and then they go, great, awesome. Now let's switch it. Now your belief now is this. You, you basically now start looking at evidences to confirm your view. And it's really fascinating that when we really look for it, we can actually find evidence to whatever belief we have, you know, and it's, it's, it reminds me of that old, you know, uh, that old story of the Indian chief that, that he's talking to his young, young. Um, to, his own grandson and his grandson says to him, dad, know, grandfather, goes, I'm, I'm really confused. Some days it's like there are two wolves in my brain. Uh, one wolf is negativity and power and dark forces, et cetera. And the other one is light and hope and growth, you know, which one wins. And his grandfather says, whichever one you feed. And I think that that is evidence to support what you were just saying about. that that is a starting point and then you can feed it accordingly and that's how you can perpetuate and reinforce your beliefs.

Yeah, most of these beliefs are reinforced, especially older ones, right? The ones that are reinforced by your parents, your culture, and then also reinforced by the teachers and then reinforced by your friends because of the society or the, you know, the city that you live in and the culture that you live in. And that can continue gets reinforced and reinforced until you really, until you're in your twenties, when you start going, there's an expiration period of time where you're going, is this true? Is this what I believe? And again, like this is not about right or wrong. So please don't. you know, listeners, you know, this is not about saying right or wrong, but like, just remember, like, I'll give you a perfect example. It's like, if your parents were Roman Catholic, so my parents were Roman Catholic, I grew up in a Catholic family and we went to church every single Sunday. I went to a Catholic school. I was an altar boy, right? I went to church every Sunday and I went to high school in a Catholic, you know, Jesuit, all boy school. And so like those, those ideas are reinforced over and over again. It's like these rituals, right? And again, right or wrong, that's sort of what happens. And I think that's important to kind of recognize that that's sort of what goes on. And those beliefs are held strongly until you start to really start to question, you know, again, I think it was probably in my 20s when I started going like, why am I doing this? Like, is it what I truly believe or has this been what I've been taught to believe? Right? And I think that those are like just a basic fundamental thing of how that happens. And again, not saying it's right or wrong, but there's so many other beliefs that we actually have. Maybe it's like me being Asian, being Chinese. And like the stereotypical thing is like, oh, Chinese people are just always smart. Am I like really? Am I that smart? Like, am I really supposed to be good at math? And all these things kinda, even being a bad driver, like all these things are just stereotypically there culturally and society. kind of imposes upon us and we don't really tend to sometimes question it. And sometimes we actually reinforce those behaviors because that's what's expected of us and expected from, and there's some detrimental effects because I see this in some kids, like when I was growing up, there's certain kids like they were, you know, not the smart kids or they were like typical, like they don't try hard. So then the teachers, like this is the Pagmillian effect, right? That what the teachers don't believe because they've always been the troublemakers. don't, they're always the one who kids would never really try. And so they never really take care of those kids the way they're supposed to in a way. They almost have low expectations of them. So therefore it's almost like, you know, they have the high expectation of the kids who do perform and have low expectation of the kids that don't perform. And all of sudden they get the marks that they get. But is it really about the kids not trying or not being smart enough? Or is it just because the teachers had a certain bias that affected their grades in the first place? And I think there's the whole study on that, right? They had teachers going into a classroom that said, these are the brightest kids, you know, in the county. And then, you know, they talk about the kids and the teacher's like, oh, they're amazing. They're so bright kids. They're so smart and do great. And then they had another kids that these are the worst kids and so on and so forth. But it was just average kids. It was an average class. There was nothing to it except for what the pre-frame to the teacher of what this class was about. And so that's the perfect example of the Paglilium effect of making sure that your fundamental belief pre-frames how you're gonna behave and how you see the world.

Yeah, because fundamental human need is to be consistent with your view and everything you do is meant to be consistent with your identity of yourself and who you believe you are. so if you, even to the, even some of the language we have around that, if someone changes their mind regularly, we quite often say they're inconsistent or they're spontaneous or they're erratic in their decisions. So we don't give credence to the ability to be able to change your mind. You know, I think that that there's some people who have an idea and they'll, you know, they'll die on the Hill with that idea. And granted that may be a very strong view that they have, however, they're not open to the possibility. There's another option out there. And I think that that where that, you know, where that becomes limiting is that you have evidence to the contrary that something may be something and you won't, you won't. could entertain that as a possibility. You won't even consider that your worldview or your perspective may have started from first principles that were incorrect. And then from there, everything else then supported that process. It happened in maths, right? Didn't they used to do that? I wasn't exceptionally good at maths. It must've been because that first step was wrong. If that first step is wrong, the subsequent steps may all be right, but they're based on an incorrect assumption.

false premise.

a false premise and so consequently that's what you do. it takes something in a person to back it up and go, no hang on actually, we got to back right up to that first premise again and challenge that and find out if that's true because this is not going to get us any further. It's actually going get us further and further down the rabbit hole, but we're not, because we're not prepared to challenge and ask of ourselves, how you have intellectual courage to challenge that perception. We're not really gonna change this, I'll turn this around.

And that's the one of most challenging thing as as human beings need to do with is that you need to do some self exploration. We talk about this in this podcast a lot, which is the willingness and the courage to be able to do some self exploration and going, is this who you truly are? And I go through this, you know, reflectively and Jim, you helped me out with a problem last week, you know, that, know, I was dealing with. It's the same thing. It's like going through like these mental blocks within yourself because these you create a false assumption about yourself and you really kind of have to dig deep. every once in a while to really reassess. like, is this who I really am? Is this, you know, is my perception of myself as being false? And I remember a clear example. And it's funny that we, you know, now that hit the title of this podcast is what if we are wrong? And yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know we just warm up now. All we need, all I need, like you and I just need a topic and let's go. And then pretty much that we are, right, we're ready to go.

Yeah. Well, it's funny because that exact title, What if You're Wrong, is exactly the same as the literally word for word, a concept that I actually created, which I forgotten until now as you were talking in my own head anyways, probably about six or seven years ago. And I can tell you the story, I'll give you some context around this story. I remember I was sitting in a mastermind group and we were just talking about ourselves and talking about what our genius skills was, what's our... you know, what we're really, really good at. And so I started thinking about, you know, what I was good at. And then, you know, one of the exercises was to really kind of have a conversation with others around you and go, what do you think I'm good at? Right? So just get a more of a 360 degrees of opinion perception of what other people think of us. And I remember we're going around the room and people was like, Oh, Lauren, it's like, you're, you know, one of the things that you're really good at is that you're really good on video. You know, you're, you're great speaker. can actually take these complex ideas and make it simple. And you just, love your videos, your energy, you know, the, the, way you speak, the way you do videos. And I'm like, what you talking about? Like anybody could do that. Like I'm not back great on camera. I compare it to all these other people. Because in my mind, my perception is I'm comparing to people I kind of look up to, but in their mind, they're, they're seeing something. And let's just say we went around the room and there was a common thread in some of those conversations. And then one of the things I was working on at the time was freaking out like, Oh, cool. What, marketing ideas could I be leaning towards again, uh, to do more of? And one of the things was, you know, I couldn't do more videos because I don't think I was that good, good at doing videos in my mind. I was good, but I wasn't great. But everybody else was saying, you know, how great I was. And so I wasn't buying into my own story. And so I, I remember saying to myself, like it literally had to like sit with it and go. What if I was wrong? Right? And the whole concept was, what if I was wrong and everybody was right? Like, what if my own perception of myself was wrong and that all the other people's perception of me is actually the correct one, which seems kind of silly because you should know yourself more than what other people think of you or see of you. But what if I was wrong? What if my lens of how I saw myself when I look himself the mirror isn't as valid or correct? as everybody else actually sees me as. And so I just said, okay, well, let's make believe and let's play. If I was wrong with that and everybody else was right about me, how would I then act or behave or take action? I immediately went to, well, if they were right and I'm wrong and they think that I'm good at videos, then I would double down and triple down on doing more videos. And I was like, oh, that totally changed that my marketing plan. towards my business because I would have held back because I didn't think I was that good. Whereas, but if I was wrong and they were right, this is how I would actually action it. So I go, okay, well, let's try that. And that's how that came to me. So this is a concept, it's funny, and it's all coming back to me now is exactly that. Like what if you are fundamentally wrong and everybody else about you is right? Not to say that you have to adapt it and adopt it and go, oh, like they're right, I'm wrong. No, no, I'm saying if they were right and you were wrong, how would you then act differently? Because I guarantee you would act differently if you felt you saw yourself in a different light. And that's all I'm suggesting. was that point of that exercise was to go through that.

Yeah. It's an interesting point you raised. was just, um, cause I'm listening to this, uh, audio book at the moment. I just had to pull it up to remember what it was called. was called the trading game, which is a confession of, uh, uh, uh, for extra. I've just listed as fascinating. It's fascinating. Right. And it comes, it's the whole, um, going up against the wisdom of crowds, you know, and what do you, what do you do when you bet against what everybody else tells you is the right thing to do? You know, sometimes you could be wrong and you'll get burnt, but

Ah, yes. I started that,

What if you're right? And I'm not going to, I'm, I don't know how far into it you are. Long time, about three quarters of the way through. There are going to be times where the collective wisdom of the community may actually be right. And you're out of step with that. You may not be having all the information at your disposal and you're making, uh, I guess, uh, an irrational decision and consequently, yeah, you'll get found out, but there are times where. You know, great stories of entrepreneurship are that you bet against what everybody else believes, not because of arrogance necessarily, but in a conviction that you know, that you know, that you know, and, you can't explain anything else other than I need to double down and go all in on this one. We've spoken about that before, but there's, there's something about that. and, you know, there, there, it's a particular characteristic where you sometimes need to dig your heels in and stand up for what you believe is the true path when all information or all opinion may be counter to what you believe.

It is so hard to do that, right? It's so hard to do that. Like I'm Michael Burry is famous for doing that on the big short during the 2008 crisis. Uh, you know, when shorting the market on comparatively to what everybody was thinking is booming. But I mean, I'm encountering, like, you know, you know, there's more than, um, most people as an investor, but you know, as I mentioned to most people, like I just started investing over the last four or five years. And one of the things that I've learned through this journey is, is actually dealing with the emotions of the drawdowns.

Yeah.

versus about whether or how much money I made. That's really irrelevant. And I was actually listening to the All In podcast recently in the last episode and they were just talking about the importance of that. It's an importance of learning, not about getting access for people to be able to be in the market, but actually understanding how you can emotionally cope when you have drawdowns of 10%, 20%, 30%, 80 % drawdowns and how you can deal with that emotional when you have 80 % drawdowns or 50 % drawdowns where What I mean by drawdowns is that if you had $100,000 in investment and 50 % is wiped out in one day or two days or in a week, how do you feel and how do you handle like that emotion around that? I remember when I first started it because I got into crypto and mean, the drawdowns are harsh and fast. And they're a quick and not that I had that much money in it. It was like, Whoa, like this doesn't feel good. Right. And, it's like that, that emotional. So I think what I really learned from that podcast episode was that that section of it was just. Maybe that's what I need to teach my kids is just a feeling of understanding and getting used to them to not just in the highs, but also understand like the, the, feeling of, of losing. Right. And this is what we teach kids. Not even just in the market, just in just losing in a game or losing in a, in a, uh, a friendly match or losing, you know, a competition. Like, you know, whether it be a speaking competition or a speech competition or some science fair, it's just, does that feel? How do you cope with that emotionally? And I think that that's something that really can't be taught. Like you can teach it intellectually, but you really going to have to go through experientially to really understand the pain, what happens during those moments. And the reason why I'm bringing it back to markets because it's such an important element that, you know, you're betting on markets really on on sometimes you what you're saying is about contrarian thoughts, right? When everybody's going this way, are you willing to sell like, you know, Warren Buffett is famous for saying this, right? It's, you know, buy when everybody's sell when everybody's greedy and buy when everybody's in fear. I think that's the correct quote. but it's makes sense, right? However, when it actually happens when things are going up and everybody's buying, it's like, to sell at that point, you there's a fundamental part of your brain just goes like, Oh, I know, I can't do that. When things are going down, you're like, everybody's selling and you're like, are you supposed to buy right now? Right? It's so counterintuitive. Like it makes logical sense, right? To get the most amount of money. from a execution point of view, it is one of the most difficult things that, know, especially when it comes to money that I have ever felt or had to deal with. And you have to calm, it's really difficult to calm down the noise and go back to fundamentals.

I think that you raised a really good point in terms of investing. I certainly understood that. I look, I've been in scenarios where I've had margin calls. Um, and it's a sickening feeling, you know, it's not a great feeling. Uh, and the mistake, was like, okay, I was over leveraged and you learn that. Uh, but I think there's, there's merit to investing with a small amount of money to be able to ride the emotional roller coaster.

Hmm.

Cause I think that's really, really important because if you don't, um, that you, your, your esteem and your mental health will go with those gyrations and it takes you on for a ride that that's basically, you're not buckled in basically. um, I think that there's really important, uh, there and, know, it's all well and good to go here on paper. I'm tracking really well, but the moment you're in the, it's the old, um, you know, uh, the man in the arena. The moment you're in there, you're, you're getting beaten down, but you're learning a lot about yourself. And sometimes, you know, any great endeavor, you know, you can make a call whether you're investing, whether you're on a sporting field, you choose to run this play when you should run that one. And when things don't go right, you know, a lot of times people personalize that and that becomes a self fulfilling story. And they

Hmm.

catastrophize and personalize everything that happened rather than taking the learning out of it. And it really is, you know, I know that the biggest thing that I've learned over time is to take the learning and the lesson where possible, but never put myself in a scenario when it comes to investing that any one trade will make me or break me. And I think that that was some great wisdom that was passed on by a friend of ours who trained with Buffett actually. And I've never forgotten that one. You know, so you want to be able to celebrate the victories. need to learn from the areas that you perhaps shouldn't have gone into. But importantly, you just need to be able to stay in the game and stay in the game in terms of your, your bank and your asset allocation and whatever money you have, if it's investing and or be able to handle the emotional cycle of course correcting and getting back on track. If you've made that error in your assessments or direction.

I think it's also harder now in today's age because most of us are living in a world of like voyeurism. And I don't mean that in a negative way, but we do tend to live in a, uh, watch and learn and educate ourselves based on like watching others. And because we live in such an entertain value entertainment, guess, in the sense of most of the things that we watch are like, okay, perfect examples, reading a book, right? I mean, how many books have I ever read in my entire life? Sure. Not as much as you, cause you're an avid reader, but like all the books I read, right. It's like. but what did I actually do with it? And until I actually action a book, it's just it was a good book. It was good entertainment. And I'm very guilty of that. And so one of the challenges that most people are learning are learning from textbooks or learning from maybe a YouTube video or a podcast. they go, oh, that feels good, but they actually don't apply it to your life. And then what we're talking about here is that there's no way you can learn. You can learn it fundamentally and theoretically, but until you apply it to real life. Um, you really not going to get the lessons that you need. And so that's why I love the man in the arena because men in the arena really just talks about you having to be in the arena with the scars, you know, to show for the dusk, you know, on your face, you know, like it's like, that's, that's how you're to have to learn. Like, you know, I can't learn to Jitsu unless I've been choked many multiple times, right? You know, you can't understand what a person goes through in CrossFit unless you're on the floor, like struggling to breathe.

So, yeah.

and recognizing like, just did this workout that I couldn't believe I did. And like, this goes for any sport or any physical activity that you have to go through. And I think that's what I feel like most people are not, not necessarily not willing to do, but they don't realize how important it actually is to do it, right? You know, it's easy to go, oh, I can do a podcast. Well, yeah, anybody can do a podcast, but you know, it takes a lot of reps and sets. Like my daughter is just about to start a podcast on her own and I think she knows, I hope she knows that it's not just like, you just put up a mic in front of you in a video and you know, sure, she's got some natural talents, but the reality is that she's going to need to go through some reps and sets to ask the right questions and be a good interviewer to interview some people. I just saw today, I was at this, you know, school business meeting and that's why I'm a little bit dressed up today because, you know, I saw how they're... Networking was terrible. And I said, Hey, listen, nothing you should go in this. So they invited me to come and speak for five minutes to get people more connected. And like, you know, cause I have a bit of skills in presentation and being in front of room. And then they went to interview this panel and it was like, Oh my God, it was a painful 45 minutes. I got to tell you, I hope they don't watch this, but, um, and the reason why is because they just, the person was just wasn't an experienced interviewer. which means the questions that he asked wasn't applicable. to what the audience was wanting. everybody's gotta learn and I get that, but it's very challenging to build something and build a network or build a community when the results are not getting better, if that makes sense. so what it is is that yes, you do need to go through those reps and sets and you need to go through some failures and pain, but you also have to have the sense of wanting to get better.

Yep. Yep.

Right. And this is the last part, which is so important is that desire to really going, okay, yeah, I think I'm good, but can I be great? And what would it take for me to be great at this and really master this? But most of us don't have the time. I mean, I know I don't have the time. You know, there's so many things that I just like, I just want to be so much better at, but it's like, don't have the time. But if you want to be great, that's the only way to do it is create those marginal gains to be 1 % better, be a better communicator, be a better interviewer, or better be a, you know, better on video or better, you know, an adjuster or better being investor or better business person, better leader, better hire, or better trainer. Like all of these things take time and effort. But if most of us are just voyeurs, voyeurs, like meaning just watching other people doing it and not doing the work that's necessary to kind of get through there and me included.

Yeah. And you know, it's funny you said about, um, books and YouTube, like I, my primary learning platform is visual. So I learned that, um, and I love, you know, I'll get on YouTube. The reason why I try not to do it purely for my own sake is because I get distracted. I get so distracted there that I'm starting one there. And before I know it, I've watched the next one and the next one and the next one. With a book, forces me to stay present in what I'm reading. I can't, cause I can't read three books at the same time. Right. And that is, that is generally what happens. It's obviously, it's basically building. Yeah. But man, I can't, I just can't do it. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm shocked at it multitasking. Like it's, it's the old, um, there's this old story where, um, the difference between, you know, male and females is that women can generally because of the

Mmm That's me. That's why don't read books. I don't have time for that. I got five videos to watch simultaneously.

They can entertain and do different things at the same time. Men are just usually one thing. And quite often there's a joke, a friend you used say, look, if you're traditionally as a male chopping carrots and you know, your partner would come in and they start talking, you stop chopping, chopping carrots, start talking. And they go, why have you stopped chopping the carrots? You go, oh, sorry. You go back to chop and you stop, stop talking. And it's, that's what I'm like with reading. And if I, If I go into an environment where there's so much stimulation, I lose focus, I lose concentration. Um, so that's as much as I love it. I discipline myself to read because I can stay in that line. Otherwise, man, I just chop, chop and change everywhere. That's just me. That wasn't.

Yeah. No, no, that's why I can't finish a book because I can't, I don't have the discipline or the patience to finish a book because I just want to get the chapter seven instead of just finishing the chapter one or two. um, you know, talking about YouTube, like the reels are even worse, right? Because I'm trying to watch like a 20 minute video and then I, but I'm like, Oh, but look at this reel. Oh, it's only 30 seconds. I'll press on that and now I'm down this rabbit hole. And then I come out of it like, Oh, yeah, I'm still on this 20 minute video. I'm supposed to be watching.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But you know what's really interesting even in entertainment and sport, right? you know, just digressing for a moment. The AFL football season has just started. So my team are two from two. So they're doing really well. And traditionally I haven't had a lot of time to watch the whole game because it's usually with the time zone, it's usually Thursday morning or Friday morning. It doesn't work. You know, I've got stuff to do. So I've gotten to watch the highlights and they can give you a seven minute highlight of the game. They can give you a 20 minute highlight. And then you watch the whole game. so for the few weeks in the last part of last year, I was just watching the highlights, right? And I got to record the watch the game over the weekend. I was like, man, this is taking forever. It's like, me the short course. I was impatient to watch the whole play when I've been working on the seven and 20 minute modules. It's really fascinating, you know? So it shows you how quickly you can adapt and, and, um,

Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, just how amazing your brain is in terms of pattern recognition, which supports what we're basically saying. And that is if your premise is fundamentally wrong and you're going down a path, it takes a lot to turn that sucker around to start back at the starting point to rewire how your brain works.

Yeah. So here's a perfect analogy. I love that thing. Cause I'm the same way, right? When my Niners are playing, you know, sometimes they play, you know, late at night, 8 PM their time. It's like 1 AM. not like, love my team and I have done that wake up at one o'clock or three o'clock in the morning to watch a game. Yeah. Yeah. I'll do that. Maybe when, the season's on the line or if it's like the big game, sure. I'll, do that. But you know, I haven't done that in a very long time, especially last season.

Yeah, I was a lot younger then, so now I'm just the older grumpy bloke that says, nah.

But here's the thing, right? So there is the same thing. Do I watch the five minute video recap? Do I watch the 40 minute time or do I watch the full game? And here's what's interesting though. When I watch the five, like the 10 minute clip, like just the highlights or even the 40 minute, it's great to see every play. You don't see every play, but you see some of the most important plays. But the problem with that though is that you don't actually see the context of the setup of that play.

Yeah.

right, and you miss like a lot of the analysis from what the announcers are talking about and some of the background story that makes it so rich when you watch a full game. Now here's the thing, right? In life, it's like that. I think oftentimes the whole topic about what we're talking about is what if we're wrong? What we tend to do is when we make an assumption of we moving forward is we take the highlights of our lives or about that particular story or that belief and we... take only the highlights, we kind of almost remove the context of the subcontext that got us there thinking. And so therefore and create a solid sort of belief that we think is right. So, so you're only taking like the highs, but we never see the lows of when we're wrong. And so what happens you think you're right, because you just take the highlights, and then make it right. But what we really do is we forget, because we're actually not judging the whole thing. So what we're doing is we're missing all the low lights. And the low lights, actually creates context and probably could bring the highlights back to even to recognize like maybe it wasn't a highlight. If anything, it might've just been a false assumption that you actually have. And I think that that's exactly sort of how we live our lives. And this is again, me included. I think I'm good at really good at something, but it's because I've only taken all the evidence in my memory back, because I'm not gonna go through 49 years. They're like, oh yeah. but that's what we do. kind of simple, our brain kind of simplifies it. But if you actually sat down and do the deep work and do have the courage to explore and subvalue, am I actually correct in this? Sometimes you might find and actually maybe be surprised and going, wow, I actually, I just made a huge assumption for the last 30 years of my life that I shouldn't, this is not the fundamental belief on how I actually believe life to work or how I believe in myself and realize that, you know, this relationship isn't the correct one. Or maybe it's like, the false assumption I was better than I thought, or maybe I was actually worse than I thought. You know, and so all of these things is because of this, the shortened period of time, because our brain does that, we just kind of short to the whole game, we kind of compress it to something that we can comprehend. And that creates this false possible false narrative about who you are.

Yeah, it reminds me of this movie. think it's Adam Sandler. think it's called Switch. I'm not sure if you've ever seen it. It's got the remote control and he just pauses and he speeds up all the really boring times and then he just condenses it to a seven minute match and something. it's quite a funny movie, but it shows you the consequences of doing that. And I love how you linked up the buildup to the play because a lot of the times when you're just seeing the highlight, you're seeing the final product. You're not seeing

Oh yes, yep.

process, the turnovers, the corrections, the plays that don't get a statistic in a sporting sense, but set up everything. And you don't realize that it was an error from one person that set things up. So you don't get the context of it. I think that, I guess the analogy I would draw is that sometimes you may be on top of a mountain and thinking you're going higher, you sometimes have taken the wrong path. You sometimes need to descend down the mountain. to get to rise and climb another one. And if the process of taking out all the incorrect parts were there, you'd never see the journey of coming down the hill and what you're learning in that process of things not going greatly. All you'd ever see is the ascent and the peaking of the mountain. And let's be honest, the number of times you may have your winning a gold medal are gonna be short. they're not gonna, might have, if you're a Michael Phelps, you'll have a dozen of those in your lifetime, those specific moments. But the learnings that come from perhaps mistakes and incorrect pathways quite often are what set you then up for the trajectory that then helps you elevate whatever mountain that is for you. But it's the willingness sometimes to go, hey, am I on the wrong mountain? Am I doing the right thing here? And do I need to go down this mountain to ride another one? Tell me about what thought little that because.

Mm.

anybody's watching this just suddenly you saw you just pop there what went through your

Well, I just think, I think I've experienced that several times is like, you you climb the summit or you're at least on the precipice of climbing the summit and then you realize I'm like, shit, I'm gonna bleep this out, bleep, like I'm on the wrong mountain. this is this, and then you're like, then you get to debate, I'm like, first of all, your brain just goes, crap, I made a mistake. But two is like, I gotta go all the way back down and start all over again. You mean all this work is wasted to get me up here? Like, you know?

Yeah, that's okay. Yeah.

I haven't summited yet, I can't even accomplish that, but I now have to go back. I think that's, it could take someone out. I think if the mindset is not right and you can't just move on, that could be really devastating to recognize that you've been on the wrong path for a very long time. I mean, there's so many people who have made a decision in their life early on in their lives, and they might have chosen something incorrectly and let them down a path. a career that had no purpose or maybe led them to a life or a relationship that really didn't lead them to any satisfaction. They were just, you know, too hard to get out of, or maybe possibly hiring someone that they just never felt that was the right fit, but they just did it and then were too afraid to let them go. And then now you're kind of stuck with dealing with all the pain and anguish. like, man, I could have just avoided all of this like three years ago if I just didn't do the hire. So you kind of go through like the what ifs, right? And, um, because all this time again, is you're proving yourself that you didn't want to be wrong. You didn't want to be wrong until you get to a point where, okay, like now you've gone so far down this cul-de-sac that you realize that there's no more room. It's a dead end. Like cul-de-sac is Seth Godin's perfect example. It's like, sometimes you got to realize it's a cul-de-sac. There's no more road to go that you got to realize you do have to turn around and you have to try to find the street and you have to know when to quit. And I think he talks about, I think that's from the dip, the book that he read, uh, sort of wrote that, you know, there is a certain point.

Yep. Yep.

where we go through dips and you got to realize that every business has its dips, every life and relationship has its dips. And it's like, you got to recognize like, are you in a cul-de-sac where you can't escape, that you just went down, there's no more out, or are you in a dip recognizing that there is another path forward? And I think those are self analysis. we're talking in generality here, which is important because everybody's circumstances, every specific situation has its own different story. But it is important to explore these concepts in your mind to recognize that can be okay that Sometimes I'm wrong. remember the perfect example as I was doing this mini triathlon, it was a long time ago and I've never done one before. And, know, starts with the swimming race and the swimming race was in this lake. It was so dark in the lake, you know, and, you know, I'm an okay swimmer. I, you know, I used to swim in high school and, and so I, I, you know, I took off, you know, right from the near the beginning. Um, and you know, sort of near the leaders, uh, swimming, cause I figured that would be some of my strong suit comparatively to running and cycling. I've never done any cycling before. So. And then I took off and there was a point where I was like, I was swimming by myself. I was like, wow, this is awesome. Like maybe I'm fast. You know, like I'm pretty fast. Like I didn't realize maybe I'm faster than I thought. And then I kept on swimming and swimming. I'm like, there's no one around me. This is weird. Right? So I decided to look up and realize I'm like, I didn't make a turn. That's what happened. It wasn't because I was faster than everybody else. I literally went off course. Right. And I looked back and I'm like, I'm like, I just swam so much more than I needed to. and now have to come back, right? So, you know, that was the thought. What if I was wrong? What if I'm actually not that fast? I look up, I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm not that fast. I was just stupid. I didn't turn with like everybody else. I didn't follow the crowd. So that's a perfect example of recognizing the crowd actually knew where they were going and I was wrong. The counterintuitive move wasn't paying off. And sometimes they are gonna, you know, I have to track back. I lost a ton of time to, you know, wasted energy and a lot of time that wasted just to kind of get back to the race.

Yeah. And there's definitely situations where people make mistakes. Right. So, and that's how I read that. Uh, it's also then there's, there's, different stages of that, your awareness and then your next step. Right. Because if you are unwilling to consider a change, then that's setting you up for either, um, put up with it or just, um, basically just adapt or cope or settle.

Mm-hmm. Hmm.

And, know, quite often, as you said, you know, if you've made a wrong hire or you've made a decision, like you said, your most significant other, you've realized this is not really for me. I get that that would be really hard to admit that to the self and then to destabilize and unsettle your whole life to change that. That's not an easy process, you know, and some that's, can understand how some people go, you know, It's too hard to change. I'm just going to deal with it. And I've spoken to many people, you know, a lot of people in relationships who I know that have just gone, it's too hard. I'm going to put the queue in the rack and just going to coast for the rest of the time. I'm not, it's too difficult to change it now. Um, and so they, that, yeah, that'll, that always comes up. You know, we, we, we have a choice and yeah, but I don't even know how that one even came up.

Hmm. Yeah.

But that's the ping that I got because I've had conversations with people who aren't living their life on their terms. They're not fully engaged and not fulfilled. They're not happy, but they realize that it would just be too hard to change. they just settle.

Yeah. Well, I like the line of where Gary Vandertraak says, he talks about it. It's like, know, Gary Vandertraak, know, like he's such a, like he's just a fiery, happy kind of guy. And, and he just, you know, like loves to kind of like so much energy and, you know, and, piques people out. And that's actually him in real life, by the way, cause I met him a couple of times and he's like, he's actually like that in person as he is on video, which I like, I like that, that they're the same person. But one of the things he said, that kind of always stuck with me, he said, you know, hey, listen, like, I don't care what kind of life you want to have. And he goes if you want to if you're happy, that's what he like he cares about happiness and I really do agree that you're happy You're happy. It's great and he goes, but you know if if you don't if you don't like your job But you're happy with it and you're okay with it great be happy But don't and the thing is here's the crucial part is just don't complain Right and and that's the reality says you like if you can't you can't if you complain about it Then that's on you, right?

Hmm.

If you don't complain about, you've just say you're in a job that you don't like or you've made a decision or a relationship that you're in and you don't like it, but you're not willing to do anything about it, great. But that's fine too. As long you don't complain, because if you complain about it, then you literally mean that you, you are putting yourself in that jail. Like you're putting yourself in that position. And I kind of, you know, you you and I both did something very similar, right? We, you know, we took off and moved and left a country that we adore and we love. Um, and. moved, not because we hated the country or had something against the country. No, it's because we felt and I think I speak for both of us when we just felt that the the unknown, the the future that's ahead of us, the undiscovered future was more exciting. And also just recognizing that puts us in a position even if it doesn't work out. It puts us in a position that we could say, I didn't die with regret. I think that to me, I think you and I are very similar on this, which is that is more painful to us than taking action on something that could be potentially a mistake. not to say, like, and again, not to say your move to Spain was a mistake, right? But if you evaluate it from like all the things that... It was a mistake. you know, we could be seen as a mistake, but reality is that you probably wouldn't have got to where you are currently if you didn't make that first move in the first place. It's just that the first door didn't work out, but that door led to a second door that you couldn't see if you didn't go through the first door in the first place. And I think that for me, the living were to grunt is what I challenge with people like, are you going to be okay? You know, five years from now, 10 years from now or whatever on your deathbed, like, are you going to be okay with the life that you have? And if, if you're not, then go do something about it.

Yeah. And I think with Gary V's message, what I really enjoy too is that age, he doesn't, um, he doesn't believe in the concept that, you know, the best of you is, you know, behind you. He always says, you know, if you're 15, you're 55 and whatever, still got another 25 years ahead of you. can do whatever you want to do. And honestly, there's something beautiful to hear about that when you go, okay, well, okay. It may look different. may.

Mmm.

been a different form. Heck, when we, when I studied chiropractic, there was a guy who I think I mentioned to him, he was 65. He was a retired vet. always wanted to be a chiropractor. And so at 65, he decided he was going to become a chiropractor. between 65 and 70. So I don't know how long you practice for, but it proves to the, that it's never too late, you know, and, and if it's not about incorrect, but it's about with sometimes we realize time goes very quickly, but then other times we realize we've actually got more time. than we think if we really focus on the things that are along the path of what we want. But it's courageously changing direction and saying, okay, well, whatever time I have left, I'm going to dedicate it to the things that give me fulfillment and joy, whatever they are, whatever that looks like. And I agree with you. mean, we, the hardest thing to support someone in, if someone's in a really tough situation and they ask for support, you help them, you do that. And you willingly do that, but it's really hard and it is very draining as a support person where someone is in a situation. They don't take the steps that, that I know they could do for whatever reason. Um, as you said, they, they're, complain about it. You catch up with them six months later and they haven't changed anything. And they're stuck in the cycle of doing the same because it's too difficult to change. that becomes really draining. It's really hard to support someone. Um, and you know, the, the, the people who I always look at and go, wow, I can't imagine how hard that was for you to rewrite the script in your life and story and start again, do it differently. That, takes a level of inner conviction, courage that I admire no matter what endeavor someone follows through.

Hmm. It is very difficult. It takes massive courage to do, to take action on that. And I think, you know, going back to the theme of the topic today, which is like, you got to get to a point where, you know, with conviction to realize that maybe I'm wrong on this and, that thought process allows you to take a chance. I mean, for us, you know, I thought I was going to practice till the day I die, you know, and I was like my, my mantra, like, you know, when I left. you know, university 20 somewhat years ago. And I remember I had this dream, I even had this vision of me like being 90 somewhat years old and still going to practice in the morning. And then, you know, had enjoyed my day and then peacefully went, you know, die and move on, you know, to the spiritual world. And that was like my life. I planned out my perfect last day kind of thing. And you know, you know how hard it was for me to go through that in the head and realizing that I was questioned like, maybe I'm not meant to have that vision. Maybe I'm not meant to. you know, just practice, you know, always like, what if I changed? And there was so much resistance, even with my own wife, she was like, what are you doing? You have a successful career, you have a successful business. Why would you give up on that? And it was just, you know, I was thinking like 37 or something at the time. you know, and that was going through my head. And that's, but the reality is what I'm saying to you is that I had to wrestle with that. you know, because if you don't wrestle with that, then you are just going to go with the status quo. You are just going to go do what you said you were going to do because I don't want to. We started this podcast saying most of us do not want to break our own vows or break our own beliefs because it's easier to stick with what we truly believe in. But I think what we're describing here is that there is so much value to really evaluate your beliefs and evaluate your truths and ask the simple question, what if you're wrong? What if you're wrong in those things? Not to say that it might prove you right, it just might prove you going, hey yeah, I am. And he goes, I'm not wrong on this. I truly believe this. Great. It actually adds value because it reinforces that belief. But it may kind of shake some of the other beliefs and realize, I'm like, oh, maybe, just maybe there's something more to this.

Yeah. And I want to finish off with this, said that, you know, cognitive dissonance is the ability to actually have two opposing thoughts or perspectives and be able to hold them in your brain at the same time. And it doesn't mean you have to buy into them, but it's at least having an awareness around them. And there's something powerful to being able to have an awareness around those. And a lot of the times, you know, whenever I'm trying to create something, you know, I'll ask people that I, uh, have a respect, they could be a subject matter expert, just someone who can understand things and say, what am I not saying? Is there something that I can't say that's in my blind spot? Have you got a different perspective? Can you let me know that? So at least I'm aware of it because it's different to be incorrect and not listen to anything. It's different to actually make a considered decision and base a direction on your own beliefs only then to realize, okay, I, you know, this isn't perhaps the case, but I think The two critical steps I think are important is either seeking information to support whatever you do and still deciding it as opposed to just being so dogmatic about it that you don't even consider there's even another option.

Yeah, that's perfect. And there's nothing I can add to that. That would, I think there's a perfect ending to kind of realize to have those two thoughts. You don't have to feed one of them more than the other. Going back to the wolf analogy. Hope that you guys enjoy that. And guess what, Jim, you were not wrong about this topic. And I hope that you guys got a lot of value out of this. And this is the Wabi Sabi podcast, the art of imperfection. We'll see you on the next podcast.

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.