Imperfect Consequences

Welcome to the Wabi Sabi's podcast, the art of imperfection as the name of the title, the art of perfection sort of means that life is not about perfecting life. It's about trying to find the imperfection and running with it. And there's no better way than I don't know what number of podcasts we're actually at now, but we have finally got to the stage where we go, what are we going to talk about today? And Jim sort of proposes, I, you know, said, I don't have a topic for once. Jim actually always wants someone who comes up with great topics.

Yeah

And I just kind of go with the flow. And today I was like, you know what, I'll figure one out. And unfortunately, by the time we started recording, I didn't actually have one. So, and Jim comes up with a brilliant idea to talk about, let's talk about a prominent person at the moment, who's had a really, a pretty amazing last couple of days, and who's built up a life. We kind of talked about him before, but it's not about just him. It's not even about him. It's more about how we can maybe have some learning lessons on what to do and not to do to apply that to our life of imperfection.

Thanks. Yep. And, and Laurence at the time of recording and we, we're always mindful of not trying to date our content, but, um, I think they're pretty historical, um, events that have happened for Elon Musk. And that's who we really wanted to use as a, as a reference. mean, I, at the moment I've got, I've had my sons here with us in, in Edinburgh and you know, we've talked about a whole lot of things and while they've been here, you know, Elon Musk has launched the robots that he put had a big row show on and the, um, the truck and the robot taxi. And, um, and he's had his rocket come back from space. Then he's caught with two, the metaphorical mechanical chopsticks. And, know, I've always been fascinated with Elon for a long time, you know, like as a, as a personality, all those kinds of things, but making the impossible possible and daring us all to live beyond what we know. We think is true. He's always testing and expanding the capacity. So whether you. You know, for a moment, I guess it's really important that we set aside any politics. I want to acknowledge that he's now affiliated with the Republican party in there, but for a moment, just as a case study, I'm constantly fascinated by this guy and what he does. And so I think that an expose or kind of like a journey through not a microscope, but just looking at how he goes about doing things is something I think a lot of us can learn about.

Hmm, it's one of the most fascinating stories around Elon Musk. mean, from his beginnings, we'll come and talk about what's happened over the last couple of days. But I think it started, let's start from the beginning, right? Like, I mean, I don't know his whole backstory. But I know the major inflection points is that, you know, he was part of the PayPal mafia, along with, you know, Reid Hoffman, David Sachs, the know, the YouTube founders, the Sequoia, believe founder, Peter Thiel, there's so many of them, like this whole

Peter Thiel was involved in it.

massive movements of these, guys who have actually created huge things, not from PayPal itself, but actually after PayPal. And, you know, that's why they call it the PayPal mafia. It's like they basically sold PayPal and you know, all of them got made millions and millions of dollars and they could have just sat there and retired, but no, they didn't. What they did was they took that money and then launched into other things like, uh, Reid Hoffman, I believe started LinkedIn, you know, uh, Peter Thiel, uh, went into, I think it's Sequoia from memory. Um,

Yep. He has and he does a whole lot of venture capital work and a lot of startup funding as well.

Yeah, and two of them started YouTube, obviously sold for, I think it was a billion dollars to Google. So there's so many things that have started from this initial group, which by the way, reinforces the idea of our episode around surrounding yourself with the five most important people, right? And so these guys obviously have tremendous talent and traits, but they've also pushed each other to exceed different things. Elon Musk, I mean, he took I don't know exactly how much money he actually came away with, but he took all of that money and then basically took that into three different bets. You know, one was into Tesla, one was into building rockets for SpaceX, or starting SpaceX, and then three was to go into solar city. And, and then basically, I think lived off a friend's couch for a little while while he did that. So they come we're talking like he made hundreds of million dollars. You know, I think it was like three to 500. Don't quote me on this. But then he basically split

solo city here.

these pavements into like three companies investing these companies. And now he is the head of Tesla and the head of SpaceX. And, you know, really have transformed and obviously now X as well, but has transformed, you know, automotive and, you know, terms of electric cars and has transformed, you know, basically multi-planetary species for us to be able to go multi-planetary. And so it's just like, for someone to be able to kind of think like that, it takes I don't I think something special. It takes a visionary, someone who's incredible, what do you like him or hate him? I think he cannot stand back and just not admire the things that he actually has accomplished and pushed on the edge. I'm sure he has his, you know, downsides. I'm not saying he's a, you know, I'm not saying he's the perfect human being, was the whole point, he's imperfect, but what he has done for society and humanity, I do believe that he's one of the, I think, you know, in years to come, he will be measured by

Yeah. you

the ability to push the boundaries of what success looks like and push the boundaries of what conventional thinking is like. And this is what we kind of need sometimes to really get ourselves into the forefront and continue evolving our population.

Yeah, I love how you preface that by saying there's, it's an amazing expose or a journey of a person who at a personal level has his own foibles and challenges and they're well documented, you know, you know, we're not talking about the perfect human, we're talking about someone who challenges the norm, expands us all to possi- and For the earliest time, remember being aware of Elon just when he was first launching SpaceX. And I remember watching a 60 minutes documentary and he was talking about the, he almost had childlike wonder where he and fascination that he was embarking on this. And I remember watching the disappointment. It was almost emotional when he realized that he was trying to help NASA and NASA were like, no, we don't want your help. And, just invalidating everything that he was doing. And he was hurt at a really deep level and really deep level. So I never forgot that. And I think that that's probably where that process has started. And sure, you know, there's the, the, human and the, the personality traits that develop from achieving things and becoming the wealthiest person in the world. That's the, that's the personal journey that we're talking about the imperfection of it. But yeah, like I just, there's plenty of times where I've sat back and thought, Like, what am I doing with my time when this guy is creating so much change, so much momentum and, a vision, know, like it's, I just stop and go, okay, well, where do I need to level up? This is what I routinely do.

Hmm. Yeah. And the thing is, that we can, a lot of people criticize Elon for, who he is, his, um, off the cuff comments, um, his, uh, you know, comedic, you know, tyrants or whatever, like, but you can't, and I get it. I get some of them could be offensive. Some people, uh, you know, can be offended by the things that he says, but you cannot negate the fact that he's actually changed, uh, several industries. And also he is brilliant at what he's doing and but there's a cost I think that's the most important thing to do is that there's always a cost and The cost is that you know for him. It's it's family. You know how many wives he's he actually had relationships, you know Distance with with some of his kids There's there's always a cost and and there's the there's the rub right? But you know sometimes that that we have to kind of accept that fact that there's for every genius there's gonna be that cost of how to how that affects other parts of their life. And this is why it's so important. We're ever going to compare ourselves to anybody else. You need to compare them as a whole, not as only parts of what you want to compare yourself to. And so is there, I think from that perspective, I think we, I personally admire him for what he's accomplished. I don't admire everything he's done, but I definitely admire for what he's able to transform. And I do have to appreciate the things that he's enabled to transform the multiple industries. created jobs, but also change the way we think about different aspects of life, especially in like space travel. Like I never, like when I first saw SpaceX launch, I'm like, this is incredible, right? To be able to, actually it's not about the launch. It's to be able to take a rocket, which all conventional thinking has always been just send a rocket out, spend millions of dollars on that thing, and then boom, it's gone. No, he's like, well, let's go back to first principles. Like most expensive thing is like, why don't we figure out a way to actually use reusable rockets, you know, to make this rocket land back in there be to to reuse for second time or a third time. Like that's incredible that he but he failed multiple times. And I think there was one point where the last rocket, you know, like he really was going to bankrupt SpaceX. And, you know, and finally kind of, he had to raise some more money, it was like he was just hours from going bankrupt, but somehow it made it through. And it's just like these incredible stories to be able to push the amount of pressure Like it's not just the pressure of success, but the pressure of the responsibility of jobs. So people he's hired to all these engineers and the people at those companies on, you know, banking on this one, you know, launch that's pretty incredible to be able to have to withstand that pressure while you're also running another company, by the way, a public traded company in Tesla.

Yeah. Yeah. And I've, I've heard multiple interviews with, with him and what I think you highlighted really well is that it comes at a cost, but you can't, you know, like to have this person who has this vision, you can't selectively dampen down genius without it filtering through somewhere else. So that's the imperfection part. It's the, it's the Look at what you're doing. That's challenging humanity. At the same time, you have your own challenges, you know, like well-documented health challenges. were people plenty of times I said, Hey, Elon, you need to start paying attention to your health and wellbeing dude, because if you're going to hear, be here to fulfill this vision, you're not going to last yourself. So there has to be, that's the, I always find that fascinating because very rarely do you look at it go, someone's got it all taken care of all under control. He's pushing the boundaries at one level. And what comes with the genius is the fracture points in other areas of life. And, and so I've always quite often heard, um, this example that says, you know, your life is either a lesson or a warning, you know, and a lot of the times when you study people, and I do, I love studying people, love studying people of history and how they've went about it and what amazing things they did. also take the learnings in terms of what it cost them.

Hmm. Hmm.

You know, and just, just so that we are as transparent and as clear as possible, I've been following the U S presidential elections here. And I was reading about the toll that Kamala Harris has had on her relationship where she's hardly seen her husband at all. You know, and so they are kind of ships in the night, hardly seeing each other. And that is what it's taken, you know, and they are prepared to pay the price and go in and go, yes, this is important to me. And I think that. A lot of us can look at someone like that in whatever discipline that they take so much of them to go, wow, that's amazing. That's what a full commitment to your cause, to your vision looks like. Would I be prepared to do that based on what's important to me? Yes or no. And that's always a question because you don't always know how you would handle a situation unless you're in it. And that to me is a...

Well, it goes to the question, like not to question this, but it's more to the fact around how difficult it is for any of us to be really try to be the perfect person in everything that we do. So we need like being perfect in health and making sure that you have the perfect diet, the perfect balance in terms of life and work life balance. to have the perfect business and you know, and also meditate and do the cold plunges and exercise and have the great relationship with your, you know, your wife and your kids and so on and so forth. Like we strive towards that, but I find it very hard for anybody to actually achieve that in all realms. I'm not saying it's not impossible, but it is difficult because there is a cost, right? There's a cost if you spend more time with your kids and your family, there's a cost. towards your business, if you put too much time in your business, there's a cost to your relationships, you know, maybe to your health and but you've put so much help put office on your health, there's gonna be a cost to your business and your relationship and so on and so forth. And so there's always this fine line that we need to kind of always be prepared for that, you know, we may then this is what happens, I think our brain kind of goes, alright, to in order for you the best health, we're going to eat the best way and follow this person. And so we only look at that person who's the expert in that area and we go, okay, I'm to follow this guy when it comes to this stuff. But when it comes to relationship, I'm going to mimic my life on this person over here. So therefore I'm to follow their advice. And when it comes to business and entrepreneurship, I'm to go follow this guy. And then all of a sudden, like you're following the best parts of those people, but you know, but we don't actually evaluate how are they actually, how are they balanced in the other parts of their life and And that's that difficult part. And, that's not sexy. Usually it's usually the extreme that kind of gravitates to us. It's the extreme that kind of moves us towards paying attention because they're doing the, the, um, the most elaborate things, but that element is what stretched us to think differently. But then we compare ourselves to that standard, uh, which very rarely can we live up to if we want it. All aspects to be, um, living to a higher standard.

Yeah, years ago, you know, the racing car drivers at Mario Andretti who passed away. I think you always said that if, if, um, if everything in your life is in control, you're not going fast enough. Um, you know, it's quite relevant from a racing car driver, but he longed to me is that he's a man in a hurry, you know, and to have studied him, he has this feeling that, you know, our, our, our timeline here on earth is limited. And so he's feeling the pressure of time because he, he acknowledges that for humanity to survive, we've got to get things moving. so everything about him is about speed, totally get that. And so consequently, you see how that plays out as his base belief is we're on borrowed time here and we need to give people an option. So consequently that drives behavior. So I think that the, the, the important factor is what's your foundational.

Hmm. Yeah.

belief and his base belief is that that's, think that's what's launched that whole desire that, that life vision to get things moving is like, concern is where we're using up resources, we're using up and we're on borrowed time. that, that drives his perspective. You know, um, yeah, sorry, go on.

Yeah. Well, and the flip side, though, is that, you know, when you're I get that sensation, I think that's important for us to kind of recognize that we do need to kind of consider that whereas we are on board time. So there's makes you to act to take action. However, on the flip side of that is that if we're constantly thinking we're in borrowed time, we never actually appreciate the present. We never appreciate what we have achieved. We don't actually appreciate and take time to relax and enjoy the moment. And so this is where I think I get caught up in this too as well. It's like, you I had just had a discussion with a friend of mine over the weekend and we're talking about a common friend of ours who's so driven. And you know, we both, you know, he knows him most personally because they live with each other. I know him quite well. And, and what we were talking about, he was saying is like, cause he has that same attitude. He's, he, does all of these things is because he has firm, has base belief is that he's living on borrowed times and you know, God created you. to be here on this earth to do something, so do something with it. But the cost of that though, is that you never really, it's inspiration, right? It's inspirational, sorry, to kind of live up to that standard. But also the cost of that is that you never, do you ever fully just sit back and not work and just appreciate the present? I think that's the downside. think that's where. most of us, or at least me, get caught up and go like, I can see the benefit of just being living on borrowed time and how it can push me. But also too, there's an internal driver that says like, but do I actually want to work that hard? Right? And it's like this torn element that I kind of toy with sometimes on a daily basis or, you know, on a monthly or quarterly basis to kind of recognize like, what do I need right now? And I don't have a true answer to this, but it's because I can, the hard part, Jim, is that we can self justify either.

Yeah.

Right? And this is the challenge and I love for you to kind of put your input on here to like, how do you wrestle with that? How do you deal with that? Those torn voices in your side your head about, you know, what you should be doing.

Yep. It's a great question. and, you know, I think the, you know, I mentioned earlier on about, you know, looking at Elon, who we know is affiliated one party in the U S and Kamala and another. so as a, as a, as an experiment that I do, I quite often will immerse myself in, totally diametrically opposite perspectives. So as I'm getting a full picture. So quite often, if I have a belief of my, I'll follow that along. Yeah, this is true. just to challenge myself, I'll go the totally opposite way and go, what does this look like? So in answer to your question, I've wrestled with that whole thing as well, because it was like hustle, move, grind, whatever. And then I studied the blue zones and I look at these people who've got a different approach to life and longevity. I look at the people who cold plunge, who do the Wim Hof, who look at every, you know, count every macro nutrient. And then by the same token, look at these people have joy and fun and a connection and community. You look at the data and you go, well, you know, which one's right, which one's wrong? How do you do that? How do you find that happy medium? I think that the thing that I've gotten to over time is what gives me most peace is my metric because I can still be peaceful and moving forward and driving. But if I found that if I'm running on empty, that's not good for me. And so that's my own, I guess, reference point. My true north is to actually go.

Mm.

Are you doing this because you're coming from a position of not good enough, not fast enough, not quick enough, some deficiency as opposed to am I running away from something or am I inspired and moving towards something? I think that over time has been what I've worked on. I don't get it right every time by any means, but I oscillate between being so driven to the point where I go, man, I'm just missing out on some really important things to the point where I need to reset, recharge and go again.

The thing is with that is that I feel sometimes what will happen is that we could easily. Okay, so let me put it this way. Most people have to have the awareness of what drives you and what makes you happy really, because it's what makes you happy then leads to the drive. And so, like, obviously, what makes like, for example, you said, like, it's, you know, to live a really, you know, well balanced life or to live a good life, you know, to you was to to be able to make sure that you actually get to enjoy, but also push. But some people are going, I just don't want to leave, have no regret. Right? And they're happy to live 40 years of their life, pushing everything and then pass away. But like, at least I didn't die with regret. Now that to some people like, well, 40 years old, that's not enough. I want to live till 80 or a hundred. And so therefore like, it's challenging, right? So it's just like, it's dependent on how you kind of measure that what happiness is for you.

Yep.

until you have that awareness, it's really difficult to then choose the action steps to what to do or not to do to kind of get to that. And I think where we get it wrong is to listen to too many people to say, this is the right way, or this is the actual way. Because the reality is that you might be different than the author or the speaker who you're listening to. And there's other things going on here that we need to kind of consider. And I think that's super important for us to kind of think about.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. for an example, like there's a guy called Peter Diamantis, who's in charge of Singularity University, who's put out, he made a statement that says most problems in the life and world can be solved by enough money and the right technology. And so while Elon has this view that the survival of the species is that you have to get off this planet and develop interplanetary opportunities. There's other people who go, listen, the technology that we will require to refuel, recycle, do everything is within our grasp. We just got to think about this. We've got to, you know, and so there's, there's two schools of thought, right? And what I admire in both of that, those is that they're going all in, in that direction. And it's incumbent of me to go, well, how do I feel about that? Okay. Here's one view. Here's another now for as long as I can remember. You're having carbs, you're not having carbs. You're in paleo, you're not paleo. And it's just enough to confuse the daylights out of you that you don't do anything. And then what happens for most people, go, it's too hard. I won't do anything. And I think that, you know, our bodies, our lives sometimes are tests and measures. You try something, you work out whether that's for you or not. And I think that I found that the stress for me is not so much sometimes when I'm doing something that I feel really aligned with. It's like,

Yeah.

I'm hating this. I'm hating every second of this, but everybody's told me this is the right thing. I've got like, that's the part that over time I've gotten the awareness to go, is this serving you? Is this helping you? Is this actually moving you forward? So if you're not a morning person and the 5am club has been drilled into you and you hate every second of it, you're going to despise it. So that's the kind of mindset that I'm talking about.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, having that awareness is so important, right? To be able to, you're probably right, exactly right. It's that there's gonna be certain people you're have to try it out. And like, for example, it's like CrossFit, Jiu-Jitsu or 5AM, cold plunges. Like these are all things. as, you know, as anything gets popular, especially like paleo or the all meat diet or vegetarian or vegan, there's always gonna be people who absolutely freaking love it. And there's like a cultish about that. And then as soon as that happens, you're always gonna get the opposite, right? you're always going to get the people like, co-plunge are for idiots, you know, or, you know, and, and, you know, and there's, there's people who like the vegan movement has been huge. And then there's over like, vegans are just the unhealthiest people. I'm not saying these are true, but I'm just saying that there's as with one extremes is always going to be create another extreme. it's because we live in a world that is so populated with so many different people's characteristic personalities and drives and drivers. There's no way that it's going to suit everybody. It's no different than how I think about like, you know, giving birth.

Yeah. Yeah.

or raising children. You if there was one way to raise kids, there would be just one Bible for raising kids, but there isn't. There are like hundreds of books in the bookstore to tell you how to raise your kid. And it's very confusing because there is no one way because it really depends on you as the parents and your children and what kind of personality is it. You know, do you send them to Montessori school? Do you send them to a private school? Do you send them to a homeschooling? Like all of these things are all true and valid to the Again, the variable matters here. The variables are, in this case, is the parents. How does your dynamics, how you learn how you want to function and what kind of values you want to pass on to your kids. And we also have to factor in the kids' Are they geared towards academics or not, right? And so you, as the parent, have to learn to kind of juggle all these variables. And that's why veganism does work. So does all meat diet works, right? And also to like, that's perfect example. a friend mine came over from Canada, uh, was here on the weekend. They're talking about, they'd been here for Europe for three weeks. They were in Italy. All they ate was pasta, right? Pizza and gelato is like every day, like for about two, 10 days and being all, and he hasn't worked out. And he was like, I thought I would be so much worse, but to be honest, I don't feel that bad. Right. But if you ate pasta, pizza and gelato in Canada,

you

or the States, I guarantee you by day two, you're not going to feel very special. Now, is it because the diet? No, it's not the diet is because you're eating it differently. Now there's several factors. Lunches go for two to three hours here, you know, for lunch, and then you go for a walk and eat dinner again, right? That's, that's Italian. And but in Canada, it's like fast food or the wheat is different, like the material, the ingredients are different, right? How is process?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

All of these factors are in there, so that's why there's no one study is really going to prove anything because there's too many variables to account for.

Yeah. And there will always be different perspectives that you hit on the head there because there will be this movement and that movement. And I think what draws people to that school of thought is the certainty, you know, that this is the way. So whenever you're not sure, you'll go, okay, I'll follow that person. And I think it's really important that you try things. You experiment with things. You look in and, and test and measure and go, does this serve me? And, and I'm glad you mentioned about parenthood because That's a whole different ball game altogether. There is no manual that says this is how it can be done. You know, I remember going through that process myself where we'd go, we'd have one professional that would say, this is what you do. And then, and then you'd go, well, someone's going to do the total opposite. We'll try that one. And we kind of found where to find our own truth because our kid didn't read the book. you know, of how it should be behaving. He was waking up. Our younger elder son was waking up at four a.m. every morning and no matter what time he got to bed, he would wake up at four a.m. So all the the parenting strategies and stuff had to be thrown out of the book out. Out basically, I should say we should throw the book out because we go this kid is individual. We have to take guidance about what is said. Think about what effect this will have if we follow down this path. But we've got to. individuate it according to what was being done. And we found our way in that regard. So was it perfect? Nope. But it was, you know, basically a course correcting all the way.

Yeah. And that's life. And this why we have a podcast like this is because it's not to tell you how to think, but it's just to kind of give you different perspective to maybe consider changing the way things work. If it's not working for you, but also being not being discouraged because something's not going right, you know, but at the same time, as I said, that is that what, you know, Jim said earlier was to say, if things are not really going well and doesn't feel right. And you feel like you're pushing uphill all the time. Yeah. Maybe you should stop that. Maybe it is something to stop. So it's like. It's a fine balance between those two points and it's really difficult for people to kind of make that assertion. And, but the problem is, like you said, oftentimes what that leads to is for us to just go, hmm, maybe I shouldn't do anything at all. And that is actually worse than not doing anything.

Yeah. And, and, and this is the thing that I quite often will say to people as well too, because there's the, you know, people have different life philosophies as well. And some people embrace the suck embrace the, the, the grind and they love that. that becomes character affirming. And then there's other people who go, if it's to be, you know, the universe will make it easier and I'll have no resistance and whatever. And I, what I've found over time is that you can be aligned, you can be on purpose. You still have to do the work. You know, it's not going to be like green lights everywhere and you'll never get a sweat up again for the rest of your life. It's just, even if you're on purpose, even you're doing things, there'll be imperfections that show up along the way that you have to do work for. That's the reality of it. And that's what I, you know, I guess that's what I keep coming back to Elon and going, what fascinates me about this bloke in the Bay who runs his practice, whether he's super intense, ADD. operating on a spectrum with energy that nobody else has or not. He operates, you know, like the greatest thing about running your own business is that you have the capacity to change the direction in an instant. If you don't like something, you'll change it and you go a different way. He runs a huge company like a small company. That's what fascinates me is that, you know, in studying, he's like, OK, this is not we're not going to go through 75 different planning meetings and go through the process and people dragged their feet. He goes, no tomorrow we're going to change it. And whatever we did sucked. We have to change. We have to get better. We have to change direction. And to me, I don't know. I like that. I don't, I think I would get lost if I was in an organization that so much bureaucracy and red tape that any initiative would be stifled. So I think that's what I really find refreshing about how he goes about it right or wrong.

Well, I think about like, actually, so here's the thing that I heard today, right? So we just talked about SpaceX launching the rocket, you know, a huge rocket that could actually fit, I believe he said about a hundred astronauts, if we was able to launch, that's how big it actually is to launch into space. And they actually, there was a test launch, which is got it right first time, launches up in the space and they were able to come down with it and then catch it. and nothing blew up, which was absolutely amazing, which is then going to be as a reusable rocket ship to be able to go into space. Actually, I should probably state this upfront. I am an investor in SpaceX. I'm also an investor in Tesla. just put that whatever that means. want to make sure I state that right. So the key element here is disclosure. Yeah, sorry. Disclosure. I should have already said that at the beginning. But the thing is that what's interesting about this is that this is just

Court of Disclosure statement,

What happened two days ago, think, that happened a successful launch. Everybody's talking about it. And guess what happened today. California, right? The California government has said, we're not going to grant any more SpaceX launches because it's environmentally harmful to the environment. And they stated it was also reading Elon Musk's tweets and his political leniency or siding to one side.

Yeah, yeah.

We just feel that you know SpaceX should not have any more launches So you just think like just take a step back for it Let's just remove the politics for a second remove that we are now getting into a political debate, right? So no, sorry a government agency who's supposed to the only job is to go can SpaceX launch more rockets like that's your job, right? Now you're bringing politics in here Which is probably pressured by someone else in the government to say, you know, we're gonna stop this, you know Because he's getting too much press or whatever But it's like, one has nothing to do with the other, but we're gonna use, now we're gonna create bureaucracy for the sake of other things. Like that is the problem with, this is why, you know, maybe the US or just humanity is not advancing is because we put so much red tape in front of us. I live in a country that has full of red tapes, it's Portugal. Like I have a visa that has expired and I can't renew it for some reason, probably for another year. Why? Because there's so much paperwork in front of people and they just create these hurdles. And what you're saying is that people do that in their companies is people do that in their life. People do that in their businesses and they create so much hurdle that they don't know how to get out of. And it just actually stifens growth. And that growth is lost productivity and that lost productivity is leading to a life not fulfilled. We lived.

Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting that Elon originally, you know, was based there and he moved his company across to, to Texas because of too much bureaucracy and red tape. it talks about, you know, being affiliated with Donald Trump and, and Robert Kennedy now, and making his political affiliations more apparent. That's the cost sometimes of. you going all in and standing up for something, whatever it is, you suddenly get pushback about from someone who has a different perspective and view on you. So that that's a reality. That's what's going to happen. That is going to be a truth where any time you stand up for something, there'll be automatically people who go, I'm I now don't support you because you don't support what I support. And that's the reality of it. You know, what it also does is that people who may have been on the fence may suddenly go,

Hmm.

you stood up. So I'm now following you. So that's that's the thing with leadership is that you stand up for something. The people that are waiting for a leader will find you and they'll follow you. People who were ambivalent or unsure or suddenly have different views suddenly will go, you'll drop off. So that happens anywhere. And that's the cost of living a life of design and also being intentional and basically standing up for what you believe. So whether you believe one thing or another, that's the effect and cost of standing up for your beliefs.

Well, everything has consequences and it'll be interesting to see how this plays out because, you know, Elon's already been talking about moving SpaceX to Texas, which then now you just moved the headquarters of Tesla into Texas. Now the next thing is going to happen is SpaceX moving to Texas. He does have constant consequences for consequences for Elon and SpaceX is he doesn't get the best and brightest, you know, engineers and technologists and because they're mostly based in California. So you kind of lose out on that.

Hmm.

However, also the consequences for California is now you lost just one of the two largest companies and the biggest companies into another state, which has obviously tax consequences, income for the state, and also employment for the state. You then create all of those ramifications. So everybody has the consequences. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, whether or not how this is going to be affecting California, which is probably not doing great when there's a great migration of people leaving California. The one great thing about California is always the weather. And we'll always draw people back, you know, but as you lose all these multimillionaires and all these people moving out of state for tax reasons or whatever and businesses, it'll be interesting to see what actually happened in the long run. I'm not talking like in the long run in five to 10 years, but I'm talking about the 10, 20, 30 years down the road. Is that going to affect California? And just because of these decisions by one or two people in the government.

Yeah. Yeah. you know, this plays out in multiple areas of government. You see that happen quite a bit. So with Elon, recently, his company was incorporated in Delaware and he recently just went, no, I'm actually reincorporating my company in Texas because it's a low zero percent sales tax state. So he went, you know, no, I'm, you know, I'm following this pathway. But here in the UK, interestingly, like the new

Hmm.

Labour government that's come into the UK and London is now talking about increasing capital gains tax for for assets, almost doubling it. Now, what they're effectively doing is they're coming up against a shortfall. And so what they're doing is they're basically saying we need to raise something like, I don't know, 18 billion dollars. So we're going to the concept was the people with the heavy with the you know, that can bear the greatest weight.

Hmm.

will actually have to do that. So what they're basically imposing is they're basically saying, OK, people who own assets, whether it shares property, whatever you'll now the capital gains tax will almost double to a much higher rate. And so there's been this massive activity of people selling off homes before that potentially comes into play. They've got a lot of people who for the first time in a long time, there's a wealthy exodus of wealthy people leaving the UK. And the other people who then go, okay, I'm not going to sell my assets. So, you know, like it's, it's really, it's short-termism sometimes where they basically go, okay, here's what we want. We're going for the, the soft underbelly. We're going for this, whether it's a need, a necessity, or just a perspective or a view that different, someone will always work out an alternative strategy. It's like, sure. Okay. You want to, you want to tax it? Great. I won't sell it. You get nothing, you know, so that's yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a non-DOM thing, right? That's going on in UK. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So, so, so it's these are the scenarios. There's the imperfections. I guess that's you enter a life of politics and whatever. And there's always imperfection because there's always different views and changes and laws. And anybody in business has to adapt to that every time. You don't have to be run a multinational corporation to know that laws at your state and government level or council level can impact how you go about things. And you have to adapt to those. It's not ever a I'll never have any problems with bureau. I'll just chip away for the next 30 years and get my gold watch. It doesn't work that way. The laws change constantly and you have to adapt to those. And that's the imperfection of trying to do anything. And particularly at the scale that these guys were talking about, trying to do that, they're constantly spending time navigating the obstacles that show up in along their way.

And the people who actually can do that are the people who are the wealthy, right? They can, I mean, I know obviously, because I work for, you know, organization that actually deals with Al-Shahad Net Worth. And I know the ins and outs of the people in the UK. And yeah, you're absolutely right. There are definitely people fleeing. They already know they're going to Dubai. They're going to Italy. They're going to Europe. And they're going to different parts of it because they can't, right? And they will always find a way to kind of, you know, make it better. It's not like they don't.

Yeah.

want to, it's not like they want to leave. But if you're to impose like this high tax on situation, they're going to find where they don't want to pay that because that's not what they signed up for. Then they go, they're going to move. know, I, I know, understand the other side of thinking is like, well then leave, you know, but I don't know if you know that I hope that they understand the consequences of that because it just creates this other, lot of, but it's not going to show up so much later. It's no different than what has happened in Portugal. We had all this influx of expats coming in. Sure. It's not great. I understand the downside of that because it obviously inflates certain things and prices and everything else, but it brings in jobs. brings in money and floods into the country, which then perpetuates that wealth. But then there's also the problem is now you take away that thing. We'll say, then now you don't actually have the same amount of people because you got all of these people, Portuguese are leaving because they don't get as much pay. So therefore now you're kind of in really, really difficult situation to find that right balance between how much money do you actually want to bring into the country or how much do want? and people are leaving, it's a brain drain outwards, you know, it's a fine balance when it comes to politics with regards to country, because there's always going be another country who's offering something else because they can take advantage of all those people leaving and they go, well, just come over here, right? Until that happens to them and then it kind of reverse backs, back and forth. So this is the interesting part.

Thank I remember you said that when you said that about Portugal and I think it was only a day or two after that I read in Barcelona. So Barcelona I read they had something like five million visitors in summer, during summer, and it was like 10 % year on year increase. the place is just sweltering. They've just had the America's Cup there as well. it's the same scenario and they've got something like hundred thousand applications backlogged like you.

Yep.

Lawrence who people who, go, Hey, I'm waiting on a visa. They've got people who are, um, a work visa. That's not valid. They've got all these people in there who, who's, you know, basically visas have expired, uh, in the same boat. They've got people campaigning in the streets about, Hey, we can't have things, events like the America's cup here anymore, because it's just, you know, for the people who are living here, it's just basically the living costs of whatever have escalated. So. You've always got these competing things going on, is effectively life. And this was not meant to be a political commentary, but it's really about saying, know, anywhere you look, anywhere these imperfect situations show up, for every person who's got one view, you'll have someone who have another. And it's that dynamic between the two of those that you have to adapt and navigate and get used to in order to live life. And that's the process.

Yes. Yeah, well, I mean, let's change up a bit. It's not necessarily countries and politics, but like Lucas, like it's about adaptive adaptation. Let's think about AI, for example, AI is one of those perfect example of where, you know, for the last year or two years has been a topic of, you know, most conversations around AI. And the topic of fear is like, is AI going to be do we need to regulate AI? Right? Do we need to, you know, really be careful what AI where it's going to take us no different than that we had a conversation 10 years ago around social media and how that's affecting kids and we can definitely see the downside effect on our kids and the wiring and suicides and so all those things. And, but also too, there's also been plus sides of social media too, as well. And so the AI thing, find it really fascinating because yeah, there is a scary thought around what would happen if the AI gets smart enough to be able to kind of think for itself. And that really kind of creates this, you know, terminator kind of situation in our world. But at the same time though, it's like, do we know that's true? And, or, and I think that I think, you know, for that, for me anyways, it's like, okay, I don't like that idea. However, it's not like I can change this. And the only way to kind of get better at this is to actually understand. And the only way to understand is actually kind of using it. Like you almost have to kind of embrace the technology of AI and also understand this and to understand it better before you can even make a commentary. Like you're just, we're just using these false premise and false thoughts and false stories to kind of justify something that may or may not happen because based on a Hollywood movie that was, you know, done.

One of my favorite movies of all time too I got I must say actually I loved it

20, 30 years ago. So I'm not saying that it's. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know it's a great movie, right? And it's, and it creates these, you know, sci-fi, you know, scenarios and, but this is here. We're kind of living in that world that has the possibility of going one way the other, but when you got to ask the question, and I don't have a straight answer to this, but all I'm saying is like, who's going to regulate it? I mean, the people who try to regulate this, people don't understand, right? We see in the government trying to regulate things that they don't understand is regulating crypto or railing AI. like, these guys have no idea. And so they're just trying to regulate something they don't understand. How do you do that?

Hmm.

Like, how do you get the best? The question really is more to how do get the best people, you know, who actually understand this stuff to actually give us some guidance through this and give them some thought process. You don't have to somehow trust that humans are going to do the right thing, but that's also a very difficult thing to do. mean, look at all the wars that we're going experiencing at the moment. It's just like, how is this, how did we get here? How are we still in this? And, you know, and there's again, no right answer to this, but it's just, there's certain things we can change and there's certain things we can't change, but it's about what you talked about as being, are we able to adapt?

Yeah. Hmm.

Are we able to embrace the certain things that we have to use it to our advantage for the greater good? And I think there's a lot of things we can use for the greater good, but just that it's a matter of like people doing the right thing to get there.

So interesting. Here's a question that I have for you. That's kind of like not so much left field, but the whole concept that because of automation and AI is a lot of the things. we saw, I think the last two days showed people just how real a lot of these automated tasks will be, you know, like not necessarily with the robots I'm looking after your kids, but the taxi and all those kinds of things. So suddenly There's been this whole argument about the universal basic income that everybody gets, which would mean that a lot of things are delegated to automatically done externally and whatever. And there'll be a whole lot of services and businesses that wouldn't need people anymore. And what that would mean is that everybody would get a basic salary to live and survive, et cetera. How do you feel about that?

Yeah, you know, the first concept of UBI, Universal Basic Income, was brought out to a friend of mine. I was really involved in a group of entrepreneurs. We used to get together three times a year, and he was a very strong proponent of it and actually started programs in Canada for UBI. And at first, it's like, oh, like, this is actually really smart. This is how I felt. it's initially, like, this is a great concept, you know, but there's a fundamental... assumption there, the assumption is that humans are going to be driven. If you have all the basic needs are fulfilled, you're to be driven by that you're to go to go be creative and go do the things you're actually been meant to do in your personality. That's it. And that's a really strong assumption to make. Now, how do I feel about it now? I still don't have a true answer there because I can see both sides of the stories. But here's my issue with that is that my issue is thinking about the way the social media is the way we are. Um, are consumed even like me, like being consumed by YouTube, Netflix, these channels that it can really continuously entertain me for the rest of my life without ever having to do a single thing. Um, you walk around and I'm guilty of this too. You walk around and you look at tables and restaurants, you look at people waiting in bus stops, you, you, you look at people in a bus or a train or a plane. What are they doing? They're all staring at their phones. We're all staring at our phones. I'm guilty of that too. And so we're constantly being entertained. And so I think if you create a UBI, I think what you end up doing is that you just allow people to go play video games and do that. Like that's how I see the world. Cause there's the actual con, the other side of things that we need to kind of factor in because there is no inherent desire because the social media and the entertainment industry can give us that dopamine hit.

Thank

without actually having for us to work. Now, if we were back in the farming days and doing work means something and doing work actually fulfills you and rewards you, I think we're in a different scenario. So that's sort of how I'm kind of approaching this thought process now. And in regards to, I'll answer the second part of question, which is AI, how do I feel about AI in the future? I'm like, it's like, again, it is one of those things. The AIs will take over jobs.

Yeah. Okay.

AI will eliminate a lot of jobs and it's very unfortunate. Now, will it eliminate mine? Probably. Will it eliminate a lot of the jobs that are out there? Yes. And I actually had a friend of mine, because everybody's afraid of it, like it's going to eliminate all the low end jobs. And someone made a really strong argument. It goes, no, it's actually the other way around. It's actually going to be higher in jobs because it's not worth a company to invest that much money to eliminate a cleaner. Right. It's easier to pay a cleaner $10, $15 an hour.

Yeah. Yep.

than it is to eliminate a lawyer, right, to write contracts, you know, for $300 an hour. Now someone's willing to pay for that service. And so I think it's actually going to be middle, probably middle down versus, you know, up, sorry, from the bottom up, from elimination to job. So I think from that perspective, I mean, I'm deeply involved in deeply thinking about this, because obviously, my kids are out of age and in high school, and they're moving towards a career.

Yeah.

It's like, how do you advise them to where the future is going to go? And the future is going to go is that, you know, you probably want to advise them to careers that most likely are going to be disrupted heavily in the AI industry and then try to go after skills that AI most likely is going to be very difficult to replicate in the long run. And I think, you know, for example, lawyers, radiographers, like those things that are just tedious and tasks that AI can, will eliminate that very, very easily and already has. accounting, those type of things, versus jobs that require face-to-face interactions, service industry, personalized conversations, communication. I mean, know they're getting good at that, but I think we will still crave the one-on-ones, the interactions, that serviceability, just like what COVID did. COVID eliminated all the groups, and I do feel like that's making a comeback. We're all kind of striving that we need to be part of a community, and I think that's starting to come.

Yeah, I agree with you a lot of what you said there, Lawrence. I'm not 100 % sure about how I fit.

just basically from that.

Feel better as well to in principle. I like the idea the social part of me goes here I want to make sure everybody's taken care of The challenge is how do you incentivize people to go off and do things and the people who are industrious will do that anyway? But my concern was exactly that you know how do you how do you? incentivize someone who just doesn't want to get out of their room to go off and and add value to their life and to the world so that's that's an important consideration in there as well, too, it's interesting you say about the automation as a form of disruption. You know, just earlier today, I mean, I'm involved in the finance industry and the prediction is that, you know, 70 % of vanilla type loans will get automated within seven years, right? Now, what that basically means is that one of the social commentators within the field, especially as they've had what's called open banking, is open AI banking, which is effectively you have You can also access your financial data from anywhere, any financial organization that they can access it. So it's really, very, very rapid. They feel like they could have that kind of technology within three years, but it's the regulation that will push it to seven. So the the the suggestion is a lot of it is, OK, where do people add value? Where do humans add value in that sort of brokers add value? But like you said about

Yeah.

the professional jobs, it's what's been considered like being the copilot to AI, not so much at the effect and displaced by it, but how do I work with AI? And a lot of, like you said, a lot of repetitive tasks, high end work that previously we thought were indispensable will be challenged. And I think that that's, that has to be not a fear, but you have to You know, you have to read the the the lay of the land and go, OK, this is what's happening. You know, we talked earlier on about being ahead of the curve. This is definitely one of those scenarios where having an awareness around what that looks like is very, very important and ensuring that you make sure that you you you have adapted for it well in advance rather than being at the effect of things like that. Right. So, yeah, that's that's really, important in terms of how I it.

Yeah, it's a, it's a changing world. And I think without us adapting to it and not wreck and also being imperfect in that adaptation. think that's the, the throw comes from. And I feel like this is a, one of those embrace that we actually have to have. And you know, we started off with Elon and sort of come to come to the end of this one is mostly because of that. Cause I think it's just, we should draw inspiration of someone who's basically taken some direction and not knowing exactly what the future is going to look like here. Sure. He's a strong visionary, no doubt about that. But, um, it is not like he didn't have, um, you know, knockbacks along the way to kind of that can stop them. And I think that that's what we have to feel like too, as well as that sometimes when we embrace certain things, most likely there's going to be some feedback and there's going to be some obstacles that we have to figure out how to overcome. And it's a, it's a matter of like, do you stay on that path or do you adapt or do you change or stop altogether? That's a decision that each one of us has to make. And, know, I love what Seth Golden always talks about and he goes, knowing that, you know, knowing when you need to go through. push through knowing when you need to go around it. And sometimes knowing that you're in a cul-de-sac that is never going to end. you might as well just get out of it and just cut your losses. Like that's a decision that we all have to make. And that choice can be very difficult, but you have to have a lot of self-awareness. And you also have to know what we talked about, which is knowing what makes you happy. What are you trying to strive for? What are you trying to gain in life? And you know, not to get too distracted by what everybody else wants or thinks.

Hmm.

I think that all of these things are super important to kind of put together so that we're actually moving in the right direction.

I've got nothing more to add Lawrence. think this one had a different feel to it. I enjoyed it. I actually enjoyed just pulling the sleeves up and just going for it and just chatting. So thank you for today.

Well, I hope that you guys enjoyed that too as well. love to hear, you're hear your feedbacks and what your thoughts are, maybe some thoughts around UBI, what are your thoughts around Elon and what he's doing, but most importantly, how are you adapting? How are you taking the lessons from today to really apply that to your life and apply it to your life? Where do you need to kind of challenge yourself to either pursue something different or change, or maybe just kind of stick through, or maybe just call it quits on certain things that you've been trying to push uphill for a long time. So this is why we saw the art of imperfection. We'll see you on the next episode. Take care.