Who Are You?

to another edition of Wabi Sabi. Jim, great to always see you here. And as we start on this particular topic, man, it's one of those things, I think, you know, in today's age, especially in the era that we're living in right now, there are, I seem like there's a lot of movements, a lot of changes that are obviously happening. We've been talking about change for quite some time on this particular podcast and embracing change and making sure that, you know, don't have to be so perfect. But I think one of the changes we've never really talked about and mostly because I think

I'm Lawrence.

we probably haven't, or we changed ourselves. We changed locations, we changed our jobs, and started to change different parts of who we are. But we never really identified, I wanna get some nitty gritty on specifically of change, of maybe when you are going through a position of change, and what are some of the things that, like in terms of a role within your company, maybe a change of company, maybe a change of employment, or maybe even a change of business.

Yep.

And I think that there's some insights there because I know you've done it, I've done it. And I think there'll be some people that listening to this may be going, you know what, I am looking for change, but I'm too scared or I've been too afraid to even approach it or even know how to calculate that. Because I think that's what we are kind of striving for. So let's just kind of put it this way. Let's start with by just with some background. Jim, can you think of a time when, or maybe give us our audience a situation where you might have had.

Okay.

some thoughts around changing a role, changing a job, or changing a business, where you had to contemplate that for a while, and what were some of the lessons, like give us the context, and maybe talk about, like what were some of the things you had to go through? What were you thinking about? And why would the, why do you wanna change?

Yeah, great, great question. I think I've, for me it was, it was a neck, it felt like a next level or a next iteration of a path and a journey. So it wasn't that I went left to right and went to industries that were totally unrelated in my mind, you know, there's the health professional that then became a coach who is also now involved in finance. And when you looked at that and you run a finance company, most people go, what did you leave one for the other? Actually, one led me to the other in a funny sort of a way. So for me, it wasn't so much a change and exit stage left. It was like something is drawing me towards this level. And I kept on getting situations where I followed my own curiosity, but then also I kept on having a demand externally presenting to me going, hey, you need to look at this or this is showing up. Specifically with The first step would have been coaching. And for the longest time, you know, we had been progressing and grew our practices and business, we had multiple practices. And my coach at the time said, hey, have you ever considered about doing this and supporting others? And so I think a mentor acknowledging something in me stopped me in my tracks at the moment and go, hey. I've thought about it, but only passingly, but now that you've presented that information to me, I analyzed it based on where I wanted to go and what impact and legacy I wanted to have. So the first answer is I probably wasn't chasing it. It was just circumstances and an opportunity presented itself. And then I weighed it up based on where I wanted to be and where we wanted to be as a family, I guess. So that's the first step for me.

Yeah, interesting. I think it's such a everybody's circumstances different. And I think this is the key element. And I think you highlighted a few things. I think in those circumstances of a mist of change, you have a sensation that a change is needed. It's interesting, you also mentioned that someone highlighted coach sort of seeded a thought in you, that maybe a change is there. And so sometimes you're not aware of it. But I think if you are

Yep. Yeah.

open to it. If you're constantly if you're a growth mindset, a typically person usually will last in a particular position for quite for about a period of time. And if the I find if that job or the role doesn't continue to stimulate your brain or stints and stimulate the desire and the purpose of what you're you know, you want, you then have a you get to this inflection point where you have to make a decision. Do I continue staying? Or do I change completely different to a different role or different position. And that's a really difficult position to be in because oftentimes, you've been in that role for long enough, where you actually get comfortable, and you get all the security and certainty about that role, what it gives you, I mean, you get maybe a certain salary or certain positioning or certain power, certain type of, you know, maybe package from your company. And so there's all these things that are there changing.

Yep.

is why change is such a hard thing. Changing means that it throws all of that out of balance, because that's the unknown. And I see the picture behind you. It's like, it's like that same thing. It's like you jump in there with the risk. And that's very challenging for most people. And you kind of have to think about that. Now, I think this, you know, when you're younger, or you have less attachment, it's easy to change, I advise you to always constantly change because you constantly try to strive for but if you're

Yep.

If you got more at stake, and this is a great story. When I first started as an associate, I worked for a company when I, when I moved to Australia and a person hired me to be an associate for their practice. And I remember, uh, clearly at, you know, probably within a couple of months, he always sounded to your contract and he, he really wanted me to, I saw this convertible, it was a blue convertible and a shop that I drive by every day.

it.

And in Canada, you don't drive convertibles. Like it's just ridiculous, right? Why would you, right? But in Australia, a convertible was very sexy to me. Like it was very, you know, tantalizing to go like, oh, I could drive a convertible. It was a little bit outside my price range, but I could afford it in a way, but it was just like, it's one of those dream goals. And I would drive by it every day, just like just looking at that car, just sitting in there, you know, like they highlighted and showed it. And I saw that car and I remember telling him like, you know, I'm thinking about that. He goes, you should get that.

Now you wouldn't.

And I was driving a Holden Marina at the time, right? So, you know, a $10,000 car, $12,000, it wasn't like nothing's fancy. And he goes, you should buy that car. And, you know, he seeded this idea and da da, this is my boss. And eventually I did buy it, okay? And I bought the car and I remember, and he had this cheeky smile, right? I don't know how he told me, but I found out why. I found out why he pushed me so hard. And the reason why he pushed me so hard is because he... knew by me getting a car, now I'm invested. It created roots for me, right? And meaning like I have a car loan now, right? And which means for him it's a benefit because he is, now, you know, he's gonna wanna earn money to pay off that car and now he's gonna stay and he's not gonna just leave and take off. Whereas if he knew if I had no car, no loans, no house, no mortgage, I could just leave tomorrow, right? I wouldn't do that, you know, out of integrity, but.

Yep. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

But from his point of view, there was flight risk. And I thought, although I didn't like the idea that he was doing that to me, but I also thought, pretty smart, right? Remember, pretty smart, right? He was encouraging me. He didn't tell me to do it. He encouraged me to do it, so to kind of create those routes. And so going back to what I'm saying is that the more routes you have, you know, you got a mortgage, you got certain payments you have to make, you have private school tuitions, like the more kind of things that hold you in that position.

Yeah. Yeah.

you the more you actually have the need to kind of create certainty in your position and your job. So I think there's two ways to kind of think about that. I'll let you come back to you now, which is like one is you can either go unroot, like, you know, don't have so much roots, or you increase your capacity to be able to service so that the money like the cash flow and the money situation isn't a problem serves any of the things the attachments are therefore now you're kind of create your situation or a bit of freedom. Their thoughts.

Great distinction. You said something that really resonated with me there and that is the more roots you have, the harder this process is. It's a little bit like turning the QE to it's very difficult. And so when you're younger, you don't have commitments. If you decide, Hey, I'm going to change direction at 90 degrees. It's really just on you. That's it.

Hmm. So for context for people who didn't understand what Kiwi 2 was, he's talking about the cruise ship, the massive cruise ship. Okay, yeah. Not a, yeah, so it's the difference between a cruise ship turning a boat on a cruise ship or say a motorboat on the water. That's the analogy.

QE2, sir. The cruise ship, yes. That's exactly right. Sorry. Yeah, okay. Fantastic. Thanks for the clarification because the QE2 is such a big ship that it cannot turn very quickly. Sorry, there's my little Australianisms and occasionally we'll come into it. The point being that the more, the bigger you are, the more entrenched you are, the more stable you are in a current identity and role, the harder it is to change. And you're right. If you imagine saying, I've got a family, I've got young kids, I've got... school payments, et cetera, to suddenly go, I'm going to change direction and go into uncertainty. That's not just then on you. It's then the responsibilities that you have, I guess, to provide for your family that you're putting at risk. So you're really loading the basis up on yourself. And I think that it would be a lot harder. Like I look back now and look at what I've done and it would have been harder for me to do it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I look at where I am now, it would have been much harder for me to do it if I was in your situation where your kids are still at school. Much harder. Yeah. And you've talked about what it took for you to do that. But for me, my kids were independent and there was a period where they were little where I would have done it. There's a period now that they're older that I could say there was a period there where I realized I would have been like the QE too. It would have been very difficult to change. And if anything I did change had to be incremental because I didn't want it to.

Hmm. Yeah.

destabilise the status quo, I needed to do what I did and as opposed to or if that makes sense.

Yeah. And I think that goes along with the stability is also goes along with identity. So let's get into that a little bit, because I think this is important when it comes to, to roles and jobs and everything else, because a lot of us attach our identity to our role or our job or our position. And, you know, one of the things that I remember you telling me that you were going into finance, and I was actually quite shocked and taken back. And not because I don't think you could do it, but it's just, it was such a

Hmm.

Such a different thing is like almost like a 180, you know, has nothing to like, it wasn't even a side thing. You know, it's not like the next horizontal of what being a chiropractor would be or being a, you know, a coach, like you finance is a completely different industry in a totally different way, which you would have to study for and actually get qualified for. And that's always something I admire about you. But the thing is, is that what I'm saying to you though, it's like, it, I guarantee you I was not the only one who was kind of shocked, right? I understand that obviously talking to you and understanding and see the purpose of it. But what I'm saying is that you didn't allow, right, which I think a lot of us do, me included, you didn't allow what the public perception of who Jim is to hold you back from trying something that's completely different.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that Lawrence, because the truth of it is I did have that thought process was, you know, to the people who, who have known me for the longest time. I was, I was mindful of how is this, what's the optics of this? How's this going to look? You know, and, you know, I got, you know, a lot of. so much pushback, but a lot of like, gee, I'm really surprised, you know, that kind of, so I totally accepted because on the outset, that's how it looks. The thing about it is that for the longest time, I've had these parallel interests, you know, I've loved healthcare and that was like a destiny part of it. I've also had this fascination and interest in finance and business and the business of business. And they've been running parallel to each other. And it was... for the longest time I would say this is a higher priority and I focused on that, but it wasn't ever too far away. And so they were kind of treading in there. You know when they basically say, you imagine you're the kid who's got talent in two sports. And at some point they say to you, if you're gonna go to the next level, you gotta pick one. And they'll drop tennis to play golf. But they still love tennis, right? And that's where it was for me. And it got to a critical point, interestingly. And it was in the lead up funny enough to COVID because I'd been toying with the idea of, hey, I'm really interested in this and I wanted to do some work with our eldest son who was developing. And, you know, we were launching a hedge fund in the US and that was always a dream and vision. And so and but I needed to get to a certain level of financial accreditation to be able to bring that about. And the opportunity came and that was around COVID. So when everybody was locked up and couldn't do things, what allowed me, there's two things that I did that channeled my frustration was number one, I exercised every day and I ran around the lake and kept me sane. But number two, I channeled and got my training and accreditation where you normally would take you three years. I did it in eight months because I had so much time on my hands that I normally wouldn't have. And also the couldn't go anywhere, could do it. And I just, so that opportunity came and it was just this moment. And when I went, here's the opportunity, you're never going to have time like you have now go and I lent in and I completed it. So yeah, to the outside world, it looked like what a huge tangential change. But for me, it was almost like, okay, you know, that parallel sport that you had there now you're just going to basically let the other one overtake itself. And that's how it came about for me.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think this is the same, you know, pull or friction that people would have when they start a new role or considering a different company because a different company or role might be in a totally different era. Might use a different skillset, you know, which I'm going kind of going through, right? Totally different role that I'm moving towards, but have very similar skillset. I'm leveraging that. We'll talk about that later. But I mean, for you, like, can, can you talk through like how you navigate it through the conversation in your head? Because I think this is important for people to know. What did you have to do? What did you have to overcome to navigate through that friction?

Yeah. Great question because there was a lot. It was number one, it was my own interpretation of what that looked like and was I leaving because I got a lot of pushback when we started coaching in terms of, I was selling out on the hands-on part. So I got a lot of pushback on that and a lot of judgment and a lot of et cetera. But when I went to this level, I was already used to it. So I just went, look, just be honest and true to self. So, but I had to work through the inner dialogue of how that would be perceived and what that would look like, et cetera. But then I realized I was giving disproportionate weighting to what other people would think if I wasn't being true to self. So that was the part of it. Honestly, the hardest part without question for me was there was a level of preeminence that I had clinically as a practice, as a coach. And I could trade on that. I could leverage that. I had cultural and authority in that area. I've now entered an arena and a space where it's like, I don't care what you've done before. You're now playing a new game. So you're at base camp straight away. And it is very difficult. The analogy that I give to it is, I've been a martial artist my whole life and had high levels of training in one discipline. When I started Jiu-Jitsu later in life, it was like,

Hmm. Yeah.

Doesn't care. It doesn't matter. It is so different that you went like you're a baby. You're at wipeout level again. Yeah. And you get your ass kicked. You know, even though I can't use the skills that I've got before and as good as they are, the moment that I'm on the ground, it's a totally different game. And I had to surrender the whole, but I'm this, but I'm that. It's like, no dude, here the now rules. You know, you either adapt or you that's it. You're washed up. So that was really difficult. And I'll be honest, if it wasn't for my

You're a white belt again. Yeah.

martial arts training that prepared me for the fact that you're going to go to base camp straight away. I think it would have been a lot harder than it was.

I think that's one of the hardest things to do, to be honest with you. I think it's the hardest thing to do when you have success in one area arena of your life, one area of your life. And then when you translate and actually move to a different space, you have this weird expectation in yourself and your psyche that I should just be like a brown belt in that new arena. Like it's weird. Like it's just like, and it's almost like Michael Jordan, like being like the best player in basketball and.

Yeah. Yeah, straight away. I'm gonna walk into that, yeah. No.

walking into a baseball and just expecting that he should be like the superstar in baseball and Major League Baseball because he's a superstar in basketball and he wasn't. He rode like you know the bus in the minor leagues for an entire year and you know he wasn't that good to be honest with you. So and I think that's really challenging and that's that for me that's been the most challenging thing to fight through you know as I change different roles.

Yep. It's very humbling. And, and most, most people will want to preserve the identity. We all do, you know, you don't, you, it's all well and good to go. Yeah. I would give up this in order to move forward. But for, for you and I, and we've spoken about this both on, on the podcast and off site, it's like, there are a lot of things we had to give up a lot of things we had to give up, you know, there were not only, uh, locations, possessions, titles, all these kinds of things. all these kinds of things you had to just let go of. And it's, it's not an easy thing to do. It's not an easy thing to do to actually give things that give you certainty and validation and, and authority and all those kinds of things to suddenly go, okay, I'm starting again in a lot of ways. And that was the hardest part. Yeah, that was the hardest part. And

Yeah. It's, it's a, it's definitely a very tough. Yeah. And go ahead.

No, sorry, and you've mentioned the same thing as well too, so I'd love to hear your take on that one as well.

It, you know, it's, one of the challenging things with regards to that is that I feel that the identity crisis that we would have in that moment is so challenging that you either one, you never fully engage in the second identity, like the new identity, because you think you're better than you're supposed to be. And so then you quit faster than you could, should. The second thing is that you. never humble yourself enough to be able to learn the basics and the foundations of that new identity. And so therefore you never allow, you never actually built the skillsets to be able to thrive properly. Forgetting that it took you 10, 20 years to kind of get to the first identity success. And you forget that you got to start from the beginning again and humble. And so I think because of those reasons, changing roles, just because you change your title and change your role, changing a new, say a new business or different company. becomes harder and then you get, but you never blame yourself. This is the human psyche. We never take responsibility. Usually you kind of blame everybody else. And all of a sudden now, now you're stuck in a situation where you, oh, it's like, oh, the job didn't work out or the location didn't work out. This job must suck. And then you look for another job and they move around, but you never realizing taking responsibility. That was actually, you just never did the right thing to kind of embrace that new identity. So I think, so it can really spiral out of control. Uh, and that's the risk. And this is what people are afraid of.

Yep.

So I think the reason why we're talking about this is that if you are gonna change roles, you have to recognize that. In the new role, you are starting, you don't have to start from scratch completely, but you're taking some, depending obviously what role you're taking, but you're gonna take some skill sets across the board. However, what you are doing is you do have to recognize that you have to start somewhere, and you have to learn new procedures, new systems, how the... That new business, how people interact with each other, how they communicate with each other. So you have to be humbling enough to be able to go, yeah, you know what? I have, I have 10, 15 years of experience here, but I still going to have to start from basics, you know, to go through that process. And so, yeah. So that's my encouragement to, to ensure that you really think through the identity. What is some of the identity shifts that you need to require to change before you switch into a new role? And so the understanding of what would take to kind of get back to the level.

Yeah.

in that new arena, especially if it's an area that's not the same thing. Like if you're moving one profession to a different profession, that's Carter. But if you're moving from one job to a different job, there's still identity shift there, not as much, but there's still an identity shift that you have to recognize that you have to rebuild that, you know, base. Uh, of maybe clients, you might have to rebuild that base of trust. Uh, you're no longer the trust authority in that space. Cause you might've moved from one side of the country to the other. So no one knows you here. So all these things have to be humbling just because you were successful or been known, you know, the, the best person in this city, you move to another city. You're going to have to start from scratch. No different than what we have to do in terms of, you know, people knew me as a, you know, in, I don't know, say in Australia, but you know, moved to Portugal, like no one knows me. Right. So then I have to like create my own network. So it's like, you have to humble yourself. So that's probably a good example. It's like, you gotta have to, I have to humble myself to go, I have to start from scratch, but the beautiful part about this.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what that's the part. I'm glad you yeah, I'm glad you went there because there is a there's definitely an upside to that I'm really excited about.

beautiful part of that which we should always talk about. Yeah, you can start, you know, because no one knows you, you can literally wipe out that board and start from scratch and become the person you've always wanted to be without any hesitation or previous judgment that held you back from showing up in your previous version. So go ahead, you riff on that.

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, no, that's exactly that's what, that's what I was hoping we would get to. Because with that, the opportunity of a rebirth, a new, a new reincarnation or a new version of you is possible. There's a difference between running away because you'll still keep finding the same type of problem. So if you try and run away from things, that's different to reinventing yourself and saying, okay, I'm starting again, knowing what I now know. How would I do this differently? As opposed to just, you know, so for me, the, the really interesting part was, um, for, for a while, we, we couldn't, uh, basically work here in Spain. You know, I was waiting for, uh, my passport. And so the, the gift in that, like a lot of the work that we've done has been through Australia, so there was no issue here, but if I wanted to do something here, I couldn't, the gift in that is that it forced me to get really clear on what I would. do as opposed to just doing the first thing. So if sometimes there's a block in the way that really stretches you and it's an obstacle and it actually stops you just from, it's kind of whenever someone has a break up in a relationship, it's like the rebound relationship. It stops the rebound. And so the gift in the adversity and the blocks that we had in terms of the holdups we've had with passports and other is that we had to really sit in the, okay, what is it that you really

Hmm.

How is it, you know, you're designing it, you have an opportunity, you've got rid of a lot of what your previous version of life was. If you're gonna do it again, are you just gonna get more of the same or are you actually gonna settle it down? I think I remember talking about this on a podcast very, very early on where we were very intentional, even in terms of the cutlery that we were building up. So we were like, if we're gonna build up a stockpile, we're only gonna have pieces of cutlery that we want. Knives and forks not.

Yeah, I remember that.

that someone gifted us or was a marriage or a wedding gift. It's like, I want this one, right? And that was, so that's the gift in what you were talking about is that you get to design your life on your.

Yeah, it's funny. It's a we finally using the cutlery and the plates and stuff that we actually got for our wedding from like 20, you know, two, three years, 23 years ago. Mostly because we only use it for special occasion. And then we're like, what are we holding this? Why are we holding this stuff? Why don't we just use this on a regular basis? And it's silly. It's so silly when you start to think about those types of things. Okay, so you know, obviously, we talked about the difficulties of shifting and moving jobs. What are some of the things you would

Yeah.

What was a checklist for you maybe as a consideration of what would you require in a new role or new job for you to consider it or yeah, let's start with that. What were the new jobs and roles with the list of things that you have to consider?

Okay. things every point. Well, like what, when you consider that the reason why most people leave roles is not usually because of money. Like, yes, some people may leave and they have a role and it allows them an extra amount of income. And particularly, it was interesting, you know, with recently with the whole, the great resignation that was talked about where people would shift and change and move because there'd be such a work demand or for workers, people would have unlimited options and possibilities. Yes, some people left because of money, but a lot of people don't only leave for that. They've got to feel like they are valued. They're appreciated. They feel like they're making a difference and what they do is, is stimulating to them as well. So it's got to be purposeful. Yes. It, once their basic needs are met and then a little bit more, that's not the overarching reason. So for me, it had to be more than it, because for me to move to the other side of the world, it couldn't have been about money. It could not, it wasn't a good enough reason to go through what we've gone through because we were really comfortable. So it had to be another metric. And for us, it was quality of life legacy. And you know, when you look back, what do you want to look back and know that you've achieved? That was the metric for me, for us. All right. That's not everybody's. It could be that this will give them more opportunity that will give them more time with family, et cetera, et cetera. So they're.

Yeah.

You have to filter it through your values, I think, to look at and say, if I'm going to move around here, am I running away from something or is this really a better situation?

Yeah, I think, you know, what you said is absolutely true. And basically, you're the answer is that it depends on what your values are. So but the main thing is that you got to go through your own value systems, like what is most important to you at this particular stage in your life? I think that's going to be a different answer when you're 20s or versus your 30s or 40s or 50s or 60s. And so the look through those value systems, you know, as a tip here is like, what are the values? What do you value the most? And if you have a family, what are the values of your family? And what are you trying to strive for? I think, but it's actually projection. I kind of look for is mostly the future. I go, you know, based on where I'm heading in the trajectory. So I think of more like a path, like if this is my flight path that I'm going, you know, and then really trying to project is what, you know, is this new role going to get me closer to the flight path that I'm anticipating going through? Or is it going to derail me to something different? You know, not that that's a bad thing, but just like it's, well, first of all, that requires you to know where you want to go. Right? So if you don't have a clarity of exactly where you want to go, you might actually want to pull back a little bit and go, the next role may not be the best role for you. The only time I would give that advice is if you're in your 20s, right? In your 20s, when you don't necessarily have a full clarity of exactly where you want to go. So yeah, I would encourage you to continue moving and just, you know, just kind of play it one step at a time. But I think that's a dangerous move when you're in your 30s and 40s and 50s. Because without that clarity, you're just jumping and then therefore you may not

Yep.

you might pull yourself further away from your desire simply because you didn't spend enough time to really think through, what do I want to experience in my life? What am I trying to achieve in my life? Having some sort of clarity will help you work backwards to answer the question, is this neck roll gonna get me closer or is it just gonna sidestep me and actually take me away from it?

Yep. Yeah, good point, good point. Because it's not about, you know, a lot of times it's, I talked earlier on about the opportunity that came and presented itself. But what I didn't say is that a lot of the times the opportunity of a lifetime comes around twice a week. You know, like there's opportunities there and you know, whenever someone is, except going very well, they'll have job offers, they'll have role offers, they'll have business invitations, they'll have investment opportunities. And they've got a cycle site, you know, basically. cycle through those and filter them and go, is this what I really want? So just because you have an opportunity, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to take it up, which is what you were saying in terms of at the, at the start, you kind of do that until you find your way, but after a while you look at this, I agree with what you're saying is you're going to have opportunities presenting themselves thick and fast. Picture an actor who has multiple roles that are presented to them and they've got to work through them and go, that's the one I want to go to. It's exactly the same thing. And, but what I liked about what you said is that you've got a general idea of where you want to go and you're going to look at it and say, is this role, is this task, is this business, is this opportunity going to help you get further or closer to what I'm looking at? So you can be discerning as you get clear on where you want to go.

Well, it's like, you know, there's Matthew McConaughey, the actor, you know, he talked about, you know, how he was, you know, back then, I don't know if you can name this, go 15, 20 years, he was the romantic, comedied male lead. Like he was in every single, you know, romantic comedy. And the girls loved him. He was a box office hit. He got paid millions to do each one of those movies. But he got to a point in his career, just like, am I just a sex symbol? And is that all I have to offer?

Yeah. Hmm.

You know, for most people, this is a perfect example, right? But for most people it's like, it's steady, it's a paycheck, I get paid well, like life is good, why would I change? It's all the stability thing we kinda talked about. This is my identity, and you're gonna be, you know, stuck in that identity, fine, right? But there was a moment in time he goes, I don't want, he told his agent, I don't want to handle anymore. I don't want to do any of this stuff anymore. Only give me a serious script. But they weren't coming. Nothing came, he goes, do not give me any romantic comedy. And I think... there was a point where he actually got offered, I think it was like $5 million or $9 million, something ridiculous, right? And then he kind of looked at it like, no, I said, I'm not gonna take any more romantic because he made us, he drew a line in the sand. He goes, that's not what he wanted to see his career to go, to end up just being a temporary thing. And he held back. And I don't think he got a job for a year, a year and a half, nothing was coming. And then he's...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

He's like, okay, give me the, he went back to me, give me that romantic comic again, and just let me take a look at it. I was like, no, he's like, resisted that temptation. Yeah. And then I think, I believe he got offered role, I think it was Dallas Buyer Club. I believe that was the first movie role that came in that was serious. And, you know, I guarantee it wasn't millions of dollars that he was offered because he hasn't, wasn't proven in that new role or new identity as a serious actor. And he-

Yeah, yeah. It's the temptation. Yeah, it's the temptation that comes.

you know, and from then on, like, I mean, his career has changed, right? You know, you go through Interstellar and you know, you know, Wolf of Wall Street, like, you know, all those stuff he's been now he, he that one moment, that one decision standing on the line and say, and he had to suffer through that, right? You know, through the for two years, not having a job and a change of directory of his life. And but you got to be willing to stand in it, you got to be willing to stand like this is my path, knowing that this is what I want. It's not it's not easy. It's not easy to be able to make those calls.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's the challenge that we all face.

Yeah, I've spoken to funny as it sounds, you know, whenever you speak to migrants, I've spoken to many, say, people who migrated to Australia, probably in the last 10, 15 years, particularly who were, say, professionals in their homeland. And they're, they're delivering pizzas or they're driving a taxi or a cab. And I have this habit, I get into a taxi or an Uber and I generally go into the front seat. It's harder now in Spain because I can't speak Spanish as well. But back in English speaking, I get in the front and I'll talk to him. Hey, Mr. Cabbie, Mrs. Cabbie, how are you? What's going on? I'll have a chat. I love that. And the stories that come out of it are phenomenal. But I lost count of the number of people who were from, you know, countries who migrated to Australia for the chance of an opportunity and they were doctors, lawyers, engineers in their homeland, but they don't have the acknowledgement. And validation of their degree in Australia. So they actually went to do any kind of job they can get because the security of a country that was more stable was a better proposition than their identity in a volatile country. And it always blew me away. You can look at this and almost, you know, there'd be one or two out of like 20 or 30 that I'd spoken to.

Yeah.

who looked back and lamented that. But a lot of them went, I had to let go of that. This is my new life now. And I don't have any regret. It wasn't 10 years of my life that I've wasted. That point got me to this point. And I embrace it. And I draw on that. I remember those moments, you know, where people just go, that was me before. And it's not always gonna be linear and it's gonna move you forward, but sometimes it's kind of like checkers. And sometimes it's like, snakes and ladders. And you don't know that the next step isn't, what metaphorically feels like a snake and you're gonna go back a few steps to then consolidate, to then get a ladder, which you'll accelerate for. As long as you get to the end, there are gonna be pathways along. But I always remember those conversations with the cabbies who I felt like had given everything up and yet to them, they were perfectly at peace with.

Hmm. Oh, it's that immigrant mentality. You know, we did a whole episode on that and it's just one of those things that we know we, we don't necessarily, not everybody has that experience as being an immigrant or knowing that, you know, someone like their parents were immigrants. So, you know, when, when you can, you hear stories, you don't have to live through it to actually identify, you just got to be willing to go, go through that process. Are you willing to kind of be that immigrant, have that mentality and, uh, and, and have that, you know, as if you are.

Yeah, yeah.

I changed perspective, I guess, of who they are and how to live like that. So let's kind of go through, like, so what are, you know, as we go through that, okay, so that's a checklist, we kind of make that decision and we're moving into that new role. What do you think, like, as you adapt to a new role, let's just say you do accept this new role, as you, you know, change jobs or you change locations and you accept this role, what are some of the criteria that you think are important to ensure that? you know, this role is successful for you. And I know we kind of mentioned a few things, but what will you add to that?

that would be successful to you as well. Like I think for me, a very important thing would be to just immerse myself in it, to give everything an opportunity. So, and I remember you talked about it very early on in one of our podcast episodes where you had, where you mentioned that some of the people who had the biggest problem in adapting to a new country were the ones that always compared it to what it was like back home.

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

And as much as the temptation is there for me, it was like, I have to be all in. I have to be, I'm here now. So here is where I am. Here's where my, my mindset is. My soul is here's what I've got to do. There's no point lamenting what could have, should have happened and didn't or what it used to be. It was like through choice. I'm here now. Here's our new role that I've taken on, whether it's a new job or whatever. use the skills that you've learned along the way, but immerse yourself and give all of yourself in that current situation. To me, that's how you're gonna present yourself in the best way to move forward, because you're showing up as you need to be, rather than a half-hearted version of who you should be.

Yeah, I think it's the word and decision we talked about it before and you decide it's like you've already made you killed off all options. And that's the decision you made. And I think that's important to recognize that once you make that decision, you got to go all in on it. And you got to give it a shot. Otherwise, you're never going to feel like you've actually given it your all in that. You got to test yourself, you got to figure it out. Now, even if it doesn't work out, at least you have other options moving forward. But if you don't know, you're always going to have that regret in your mind, like did I actually give it my all or, you know, did I actually give that chance a role a chance? But you shouldn't do, you know, most of the time you've done all your due diligence. You know, you had done all your due diligence to make sure that this particular role is gonna be good for you, it's gonna be right up my alley in terms of fulfilling my purpose and aligning my values. And it's actually gonna move me and propel me forward to my goals and my dreams and my life. Like all of that sort of should have been done. The only, I think the challenge is like, I feel like one of the other things is you gotta figure out is you gotta understand your landscape and your environment. You're a new environment, you're a new kid on the block. You gotta figure out like how you fit in, because there's gonna be previous things that you're just not privy to based on from the interview. There's gonna be certain dynamics and human dynamics and relationship dynamics in the office or any particular business that you're not aware of, because no one's gonna tell you about all those things in an interview. So you're gonna have to really figure that out. I think one of the most important things is, at the beginning, is to really just kind of hold back. And not hold back in the sense of who you are, but hold back to kind of be an observer.

Yeah.

Observe the dynamics. Who are the players? Who, what are the players in the field? What are the skillsets? Where, where can I add and be helpful to, to kind of add advantage to, you know, to, to this team, uh, to fulfill their vision? Uh, what are some of the challenge? What are some of the, keep an eye on possibly areas of improvement, you know, keep an eye on from areas that, you know, that definitely needs to be looked at or, you know, fixed, but not necessarily go in there and fix it right away, but maybe just watch the dynamics first before you go in all gun blazing and try to change everything. I think something to be wise to be said to just understand and just observe, be an observer of all of that. And then once you have enough data and data points, then you have an opportunity to really make a difference, to make the changes rightfully, to not make the change for the change sake, but to make sure that the change you make actually has no collateral damage, but also have bigger impact as a whole for the whole organization.

Yep. Yeah, you're right. And I think that's the reason why anytime someone starts a new role, they're given a three month probation period to see how the things go here, how you fit in with you're a good fit for where you're at, whether basically you're progressing as you should, all those kinds of things. And I think as people can see, yes, you're a good fit for this situation, this new role, this, this area that you are, more responsibilities will come along, et cetera, et cetera. You don't know. I think that's the thing. We would love to know that I'm going to move to this situation and that will take care of this and this and this and that, but we don't know. So there's, there is a, there's a paradox where you've got to go all in to just like, you know, because even in our answers, there were, we've said similar things, but at different perspectives, I've said, just go in, you've also said, listen, observe, and they're actually both correct. You've, I think you've got to go. You've got to observe, take care, make sure it's right, and also show up to show, to give it enough of an opportunity to go, but also keep your, keep your eyes open as well too. So be, be mindful.

Well, I think I think, yeah, it's combining the two like, I think you should go all in for sure. But it's I'm saying be an observer as the process of going all in first, which is like, not go in all gun blazing. I'm like, Okay, guys, I'm here changes. All right. Yeah. Don't be that guy, right? Because I you know, rarely does that work. I mean, sometimes it does. And sometimes that's needed. But most of the time, you need to understand the culture. Like it's no different than you, Jim, you come in, you go on, you're all in Spain, right? But

Go, yeah, yep. This is what you're gonna do. Yeah showtime Yeah.

like, you know, at the same time, like you're not going in here and just expecting that, you know, you're what you're doing is also you're observing the culture, because the culture in Spain is very different than the culture in Australia. And in terms of how people live, how people think of things, and you just need to see that. I mean, when I first moved to Australia was very, very different, even though we all spoke English, but there are certain subtleties of the Australian way how people

How do I say it?

communicate how people talk and how people expect certain things even at even driving like moving to Portugal like It's it's like every country, you know going to Bali for example or going to what you call. There's there's certain unwritten driving rules That you just don't know and if you drive like the rules of how you drove in Australia, you're gonna get killed Right because it just it's just these little subtle thing. It's not in a rule book anywhere Right? It's just through observation, you start to realize that, hey, when someone tailgates your butt on the freeway, they're, they're being passively going saying, move out, move out of the way. Right? Stop taking this lane. Um, and they, you know, we're in Australia, they'll be honking, right? They'll be honking at you. Now here they're, they're just basically tailgate right up to you. And they signal left meaning I'm, could you move? They will never honk. They're just like, get out of the way. Like they're literally right. Like an inch from my butt.

Yeah, yep, yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah, get out.

But they're like, get out of the way. They're not aggressive that way, but they're passively aggressive telling you, could you just move over? And I think those are like, that's what I mean by observing the culture and observing the rules.

Yep. Yes, he... Got it. Yeah, and it's funny you say that because I was talking to a guy who works here as a health professional who came from South Africa, originally, and I was talking to him during the week and about how his transition was, and he's been here for five, six years. He's a dentist. And he said that he brought a lot, brought here South African work timeframes. And so for him, he came in and goes, right, you know, 730, eight o'clock in the morning. I'll start, I'll work Saturday. And the Spanish just bucked against that process. He, it broke him, you know, basically because he basically said, I was trying to change a cultural norm that just doesn't work. So that was what he had to let go. He had to let go of the paradigm and the construct of what he believed.

Thanks for watching!

work look like in Spain because I've spoken to Europe and like in, we had a plumber in our house here for the last week. We had major plumbing issues and they were here till like eight, nine o'clock at night. These guys, they weren't getting here till 12 but they're here till nine o'clock. Now good luck trying to have a plumber at your place past 3.30 on a weekday in Australia. Right. They'll be there early.

Thanks for watching. Yeah.

but they're not gonna be there past 3.30, right? That's it. So that's what you have to adapt to. That took a little while. So when we wanted certain things done within our particular, that's the also the thing that we had to adapt to was, I guess this is probably the thing was when you change, you bring all your history, your story, your expectations based on your previous identity, but there's a part that you have to go, okay.

I've got the surf man.

It's not just that you change, but the whole dynamic around there may be different as well. And you have to not only change yourself, but you have to adapt to the external as well. That was also a tricky one.

Yeah, absolutely. And just being in Portugal and Spain, we're literally next door to each other. And, you know, but going to Spain, like what drives me like nuts out from an outsider, is that when you walk around at 3.30, four o'clock, nothing's open. You're like, what the hell's going on? It's like, and they shut down because they got to go through a CS out. They will be open later on. You're like, how is this possible? How is like any business function? Like you just.

Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.

from a North American like or Western mind, you're just like, this does not make compute, you know, any intelligent sense, right? Or, and but that's the thing that you got to respect the culture, because that's the culture that they live in. And you're a foreigner coming in, you're not going to change you are one person not going to change your thing. So it's just the same thing as you come into a new company, like it's not you don't change that culture that company in one day. It's about you got to figure out what the current culture is. And if you do want to shift, then you if you have the power to be able to shift and influence it.

Yeah, yeah.

You got to do it over time. This is even as a CEO or someone that's had a company, you got to understand the culture before you walk in instead of just going in. I just, my opinion anyways. But I think, yeah.

No, I think you're right. I think the bull at a gate or the bull in a China shop approach is going to come up. There's going to be quite a bit of collateral damage. So you've got to work out and say, how can you stay true to your direction and also gradually influence people in a way that they feel like there's a buy into it rather than just push your kind of getting them to come along willingly along.

Yeah, it can work. I think it can work depending on who you are and whether or not you can gain respect really, really quickly. I think the only thing example I can think of is like Elon Musk going into Twitter, you know, and just firing everybody. Oh, not everybody, but like firing 50% of the staff. But he had a game plan, but he's also known, you know, as a certain entity. You know, some people like him, some people hate him. And the people who hate him will just automatically move on and people who like him will go, yes, thank God, you know, you've been doing the thing. So it can work.

Yep. Yeah. Yep.

certain trusted, being the trusted advisor, I guess, you have to earn your right. But if you're a nobody moving into this new company doing that, that's a risky move, right? And you know, he's a little bit more of a public profile. So it's in certain circumstances, that can work. And certain tactics, and also depending on how toxic that new environment actually is. And if you have the power and you're the CEO coming in, yeah, you might need to do some clearing out right off the bat, and you might not be liked, but that might be your role. I will say this, I can want to go ahead. No, no.

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Well that happened. So yeah, you're going, you're going. No, I was gonna say that I had an experience like that when we first bought our practice and we moved back to Melbourne. Uh, I had this and, and this is where I learned this because I was very bulleted gate, uh, you know, still to today, I still have an element of that, but it's tamed down quite a lot. But we came in, took over this practice and we had a CA, uh, an assistant who was there helping us out. And honestly, I came in with turbocharged and I feel like I burnt her out because I just created change. I love change. I love change and I embrace it, but it scares the daylights out. I hate it. Yeah. And it blew. And so, yeah, exactly. And it was like, I'm like excited. I'm sharing this vision and all this person could hear was, Oh my God, you're, you're D you're basically destabilizing my whole world.

Hmm. Yeah. And 99% people hate it in terms of employees, especially.

And she was in tears. It came in, we'd had the busiest week this practice had ever had in its 40 year history. And I was excited. And this woman is crying on the verge of resigning because the rate of change was too rapid for her. And I learned a big lesson. I learned a big lesson that I had to meet people where they were at. I still had to stay true, but I had to, if I wanted people to come along this journey with me, I had to make it.

fast. Yeah. Yet.

safe place when I say safe, so that they felt that they belonged there. I had to get the buy-in and I didn't get the buy-in. I hadn't earned the right to create that level of gain. If I tried to Elon Musk my way into a scenario and I just didn't have the street cred at that time to create the change that I tried to do.

Yeah, you had to get the buy in. Right? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, so I think I guess what we're saying is that you got a balance between yes, you should change. I do agree. I think the sometimes you can go the other way. Let's talk about the dark side of that. The other way is that some people go into a new position. And I'm talking about people with position of power, you know, the role that I was talking about before was mostly like, you know, if you were an employee moving to a different role. But if you actually have power, sorry, a position of power, where you actually are taking over a new existing business, for example, and you are now the new owner, you you know, you are gone through the story if you went as a bull, but you also can't just be like a little passive, you know, cat going into a new business and thinking, Oh, God, just go keep everything exactly the same and just not change anything until, you know, I don't want to mess anything up. That's, you know, because I've seen that, you know, too, because it's either one or the other. Usually is that side actually, a lot of people do that, too. I don't want to change anything. And then I've worked with clients where they go, you know, so, you know, they say to me, like, you know, I wanted to change these things, you know, these systems and stuff and

Yeah. No. Yep.

I just been too afraid to change and like, okay, well, when did you buy that practice? Or when did you buy this business? It was like, oh, three years ago. Right. Like, wait a second. So you're telling me for like the last three to five years, you've owned this business, but you didn't want to rock the boat and, and that happens too. Right. And so they kind of maintain status quo and that's not healthy. Right. Because now you're like, you need to kind of find that balance. You got to thread that needle. We're going, yes, change needs to happen.

Yeah. Yep.

You need to bring some sort of energy. I remember when I took over the business I ran, you know, I didn't want to change anything. I wanted to keep it. I had that same attitude. I'm like, gotta keep everything status quo. And within a week, it wasn't working. Like I was suffering. I'm like, wait a second. I'm the person who owns this thing. Shouldn't this thing fit me? And that's when I go, okay, out with these tables, out with this furniture, because you know, and it was just subtle change. I wasn't changing personnel. I was changing the things I could change, at that things I had influence and control, which is,

Hmm. Yeah. Yep.

The desk did not have to be that big. You know, I'm not that tall, I'm not that big. And it took so much room, get that out of there. I don't like this, move that. And started implementing my style and started influencing. And then from that point on, we would just never look back because people started to realize, I'm like, oh no, he's bringing his touches, he's bringing his colors and he's bringing his theme into the practice or in the business. And then that allows people to start realizing like, okay, change is happening. but you got to balance that by not pushing too hard, too fast, and now buy in. And I had to earn the trust. I knew that my team, I had to learn to earn the trust from the teams and to respect me enough because I was a pretty young kid at the time. I was, you know, it looked like I was probably 22. You know, they wanted to make sure that they can, you know, that I had enough cred before I can make some of those decisions. So, but I will say this one last thing before we go on, which is I would say if you have the ability,

Yep.

to find out the expectation from the new company of what they require of you, I think that's really healthy, right? Because I think that's important so you know what you gotta live up to before you actually accept the job. And I think if even more importantly, if you're able to lay out your expectations of the company of what you need from them, even better. Because now you're clear. I mean, at least have the discussion on your each expectation of each other and how to make this successful, just transition the most successful as possible.

Hmm. Yeah, because you're setting yourself up for success in that regard. If you have established expectations and agreements from the outset that you honor, that you work towards, then you've got a good model, a blueprint to move forward. If you don't, and you don't have agreements, you don't have expectations, you haven't articulated or explained those. In my case, I was an immature leader at that time. I didn't have... the experience and I just traded on sheer enthusiasm and, and energy basically. And I was hoping that momentum would bring everybody along and I learned some key learning lessons. This is, you know, over 25 years ago that, uh, if you want it, what's the, if you want to go quickly, if you want to go quickly, go by yourself. If you want to go far, you've got to go with the team, the old African proverb. And I realized that I needed to adapt and expand and change. And I couldn't, you know, do it at the rate of change that I wanted to, if I wanted to have buy-in. So I had to grow as a person to grow into the roles that I needed to, to develop into.

That's awesome. So guys, I hope that you learned a lot by just sharing us a blueprint of exactly how to navigate a change in your job changing a life changing your identity and changing, you know, new position in life. And I hope that helps you in some way. But you know, one of the things that we found out, you know, when we when we do in these podcasts, a lot of people are passive listeners, which means you listen, and you get the advice and you kind of, you know, enjoy it, but you don't share it with others. So my encouragement to you today, one thing we will ask if you if you enjoyed this, and you got to this far through the podcast, share it with someone. share with one person so that they can actually, you know, know about Wabi Sabi and how they can help their life, you know, through the art of imperfection. Until next week, it's Jim and I. I hope that you come for the next episode. Take care.