Why CHANGE is Inevitable

Welcome to Wabi Sabi. This is the podcast about the art of imperfection. Jim, it's great to see you. It's been a while. We've been traveling. I've been traveling. You've been traveling. And you know, one of the things that happened over the, I was in Denver and I was on this electric scooter. And I gotta say, Denver is awesome when it comes to like having dedicated lanes because I'm always so scared on those things, on those electric scooters, I thought I'm gonna get hit by a car, but they actually have dedicated lanes for electric cars and bikes.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.

I was actually happy to just get on one of those, you know, on a lime scooter bike and just go on and just explore Denver. And while I was on there, I happened to see, you're never gonna guess it, a Tesla Cybertruck. It was awesome. Like, you know, it hasn't been released yet, you know, as the time of this recording, it has never been released yet officially, but it's been out there. Like I heard that, you know, it's in the San Francisco area and I happened to see it.

Alright, yeah. No.

And what was the fun thing was me, like, I'm like, I wanna get a picture of this, but it was like at lights and I was like, it was moving. So I was like, I'm on the scooter, trying to chase down this cyber truck, an electric scooter, trying to trace down this electric pickup truck, which is kind of unusual. Anyways, I finally got like one small little picture. I'm trying to be safe as possible, but like, you know, it's kind of freaky and trying to catch it at a light. And anyway, I got a small picture and I posted up and this is what you kind of started with. And they thought, you know, and one person said to me, and you know, he responded back to me and says, ugly.

Yep.

And it got me thinking, you know, and I said, you know what? I'm not saying it's the most beautiful car in the world. You might, you either going to love it. You're going to hate it. My wife hates it, but you know, what's happening in this, the topic of this today's conversation is it's inevitable. It's coming. What do you like it or not? What do you like this alien, you know, monster, you know, truck? Uh, what do you like? No, it is coming to the streets, uh, of the world. And I think that's the, it is defining moment. I really feel where.

Yeah, that's coming.

It's a really such a shocker of a change. You know, when Tesla first came out with, you know, electric cars, I was a bit shocked. I think this one's going to just really kind of change up our brains around what a car should look like or pickup trucks should look like. And I think that is like an indication of where we are moving towards, especially with AI and everything else. So yeah, that's a that's that was a good. Yeah, go for it. Let's

Yep. Yep. Great topic. I saw your post and the backstory about how you took that photo is actually even funnier than the story because I looked at it and I went, yep, okay, it's in Denver, there's been a release here, it's coming. I didn't know you were like trying to chase it down with a scooter. That's actually, I've got the visual, I think that's even funnier. I think that's even funnier. But I think it's a great segue into that.

Yeah, I didn't say anything about that. Oh, it was funny. Yeah.

Lawrence, because I actually, I saw some, um, some information about the interior of, of the truck and it actually looks pretty good on the inside, you know, like that's right. It may not win any artistic awards in there, but I think I saw even when Elon Musk was on Joe Rogan's podcast just recently and they, they were shooting a bow and, and it was like, and yeah, bang, and it just bounced off it. And so the, the implications and the, and the effects and

Hmm. Yeah. Take it.

the usage of it is phenomenal, right? So I think let's deep dive into this one because this is a great way to start change.

Well, I think I think it challenges a lot of people's conventional thinking is because it's like, is that great quote, right? I'm going to butcher this quote and you know, I'm sure you know, the quote is like where it talks about like when change does happen, like the first thing that happens with any type of change in this could be philosophy principles. Could be health or anything that's new in the market. The first thing you do is going to get ridiculed. Everybody's going to laugh at it. I remember when Cybertruck came out, like everybody's laughing, like, what the hell is this? This is the most ridiculous looking truck in the world. Like, why would anybody buy this? but yet it's sold out, you know, it's been on production for, you know, God knows like four or five years now, and there's like waiting list for it. And it's like, you are gonna get people who re-acute it. I guarantee you when it first come out, people are just gonna, I don't like this. But I think that's the point, right? You always gonna get ridiculed. And then the second thing that happened, and we'll go through the three steps, and then, you know, we'll talk about each one of those. Then the second thing is violently opposed, right? So people ridicule you for your new idea, then they violently oppose it, it's almost like. That is just wrong. I guarantee the next phase will be like saying this truck is too big for the streets. It should be illegal. Why does it need to be bulletproof or whatever it is, they're going to start making fun and then the third phase, which is when it's basically wildly adopted. And I think that's exactly what happens, but it takes years sometimes for things to occur that way and any new ideas. It exactly the same thing happens over again. I think it challenges conventional thinking because it's something new. Meepo people haven't seen anything like it.

Yep, yep.

And that's the same thing what happened with AI. That's something that happened with crypto. That's something what happened with anything that we can think of in the last, even social media will be first time at the beginning was like, you know, funny, like why would I use it? I still remember this is going back, I'm dating myself now in 1994. So that would be, yeah, God, that was 30 years ago, I would say, right? Is that right? Yeah, 30 years ago, I remember when I went to a university of Waterloo,

Yep.

I was handed, he goes, here's Lawrence, here's your email. And I'm like, what is this? Right. And I still remember it was like, you know, nine four, whatever. It was my number at you, waterloo.com, whatever that was. Right. Or.ca. And it was my student number and university of Waterloo. And I'm like, who would use this? Like, why would I use email when I can just send letters? That's exactly what I thought in 1994. But you know, obviously, you know,

Hmm.

We know where we are living now. And of course, that's a stupid statement, but that's the thing that happens. When we are introduced to new technology, a new way of thinking, a new way of doing things, you always go into typically ridicule, and then you oppose it, like, I'm not gonna do that. That's a waste of my time. And then all of a sudden you start to realize, I'm like, oh, wait a second, this is actually pretty phenomenal.

Yep. Yeah, the quote, if I may say it's from Schopenhauer, who's a philosopher, 17th century philosopher, who did say, first it's ridiculed, then it's viciously attacked, then it's accepted as self-evident, which is exactly what you basically said. And it, yeah, like, you know, I have got, it's funny, but you know, in our family, it's called the encyclopedia of useless information, but I have these little snippets and I just,

I love it. You're like my Jamie for Joe Rogan. My fact checker.

I, they come out and I just, but I, but I've used that quote so many times. So that's why it's relevant. And, and, you know, you might even recall when they were talking about, you know, even the Patents Office in 19 something or other 17, when they said everything that has been invented will has already been invented, that was like 19 or something or other, so we don't know what we know, what we don't know. And this to me, I agree is.

That's right.

It's going to challenge a lot of people. They're going to look at it and go, how does that fit into the current norm of what we know, and this is what's called iterative or next level is a generative model of, of innovation where it doesn't use what we already do. It just goes another step and level. And that's really going to be challenging. A lot of people, you know, Tesla is now you look at them and, and that was the thing when initial people came out, it was, there was pushback. There was a whole lot of things. There's probably still quite a bit of pushback, but now you're seeing. the sites where you can charge your cars, you can do it. So it's over a period of time, it's just becoming a new established norm that you go, of course, that's exactly how it's always been. Hasn't it been? And you go, no, it wasn't.

Yeah, exactly. Well, like, I mean, think about all the people who I mean, I guarantee, like you said, like regards to electric cars, I'm like, well, how you can how I mean, that's ridiculous, you'd be sitting there, you know, charging your car, or can we never last that long, or the battery is going to die, and you say all these things, right? I'm not like, there's nothing to do with whether you should buy one or not. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying, though, it's like, there's all this pushback. But the reality is like, look where we're heading now. Look, we're all the look at all the other carmakers. They're all making electric cars. I was just actually walking in the streets of Lisbon today with my wife and I'm like, look, there's a Kia Sportage. Remember this Kia Sportage when we bought that 20 years ago? That Kia's beard torch is the same car, but yet now, because before when we had kids and now look at it, it's an all electric car now. You know what I mean? It's like, we're all moving in that direction. And the thing is, is like it took a decade. It takes time for acceptance. And I think that's what happens when we are not accepting of change. You know?

Yeah. Yep.

when VCRs, we thought VCR was the thing, right? Then we went to, you know, laser disc, if you remember, then we went to DVDs and it was like, and now like DVDs are like, it's, you don't, you don't see it anywhere. It's ridiculous, right? I've thought DVDs was the thing. And change happens all the time with technology. And I still remember.

Yeah. Cause we all had our stands too. We all had our CD stands and racks and they became obsolete almost overnight. We just, when you can carry it around in a, I basically, uh, an I, whatever iteration, um, and you basically didn't need to carry all the bulk of it all. So.

Yes, that's right. We don't even have the iPod anymore. iPod was the thing that eliminated all those CDs and now iPod is stopped. It's eliminated and gone. And that's their first major product of Apple, really. The major, I think that really kind of took it to the next generation. And now that is even shut down. That was shut down a couple of years ago and no more iPod produced because you don't need it because it's actually in the phone. And I think this is like, this is all these things that were happening. We all know

Yeah. gone.

the company that actually invented the digital camera, but they shelved it, because they didn't want it to ruin their business in terms of film and production of film. And where's Kodak now? Like it's still in existence, but they definitely don't do as much as they used to. And we can name Blockbuster, we can name it, you know, dozens of companies that have really just not embraced the change and the technology, and it's hard.

Yeah, a whole lot of things.

And I think, I feel like this, you know, it changes really difficult. Let's talk about that for a second. Why, Jim, do you think is changes so hard for people to accept to do?

Yeah. Well, on a general level, you know, whenever you want to change, we can go all the way back to biological reasons. And if you decide to change, you're going to be different from other things, other people, and you're going to be stand, you're going to stand out and, or be isolated. And a human primal need is we want to feel connected to part of a group. So the first and foremost at a biological level is that, Hey, you're quite often saying to yourself, if I am different, I'm going to be different to other people. People may not want me to be part of this group. I may not be part of the group. I'm going to be alone. And that's part of the reason why that is a resistance for a lot of people wanting change or creating change. Okay, we can deep dive into some other things. You know, you may have a go at this one as well too, Lawrence. I've got a couple, but perhaps you can have a go at that one.

Yeah, I think also too, yeah, absolutely. The biological reasons are gonna be one of the major factors in that because we are wired to want to fit in and wired to kind of move together as a tribe and you don't want to be alien yourself. The challenge with that of course is that, we all know that change is inevitable. That's the whole topic of this particular conversation. But yet we're so afraid to change. And so you're now being torn between changing. not changing because you want to stay the same as everybody else because you don't want to be alienated. But at the same time, you know, that if you don't change, you're actually going to be irrelevant at some point. And you're constantly fighting that. And I think you're constantly fighting that as at a personal level, um, you know, personally, you know, because we're evolving and changing all the time. Uh, we're also, we got to adapt to the world and society cause society is no longer the same even five years ago to what we are today and even 10 years ago and so on and so forth. And in business, I think that's even more relevant. You know, I still remember the days when we were in business when there was no social media. I still remember when there was no websites, hardly. And now it's like, now not only do you have to, a business to have to have the websites, the social media, you need to be an influencer, you need to be a marketer, and you need to do all these things now that you never had to. And you think about a business like a restaurant, for example, they never had to think about reviews and how plating and making sure the food looks freaking Instagramable. You know what I mean?

Hmm.

And all these things now has changed the way they have to deliver the service. I mean, sure. Like restaurants used to just like, okay, let's plate it up. Let's serve good food right now. And it goes, you got to plate it up in a way that it's, you know, Instagram, but with someone that can take a shot and actually tell others if you want to succeed and elevate, not only the food has got to be good, you got all these elements. And is it fair? Well, no, of course not. It's not fair, but at the same time, but that's how the world is moving towards. And so you have to do a lot more. And so.

Yep. Yep. Yep.

I think one of the other resistance to change, based on what I just said, is because there's so much to do. And not knowing what to do stops people from actually making the change. They're so overwhelmed by the prospect of changing that it actually stops them from actually doing anything. The problem is usually that leads to that problem is because they don't change gradually. They wait and wait. It's almost like the, my best example is like,

Yep. Yep. Hmm.

to someone who's a VCR, who's like, who's stuck on VCR and hasn't changed. And they just wait, wait until almost like they're, okay, I'm ready to go into the DVDs, but DVDs no longer, like on the tail end, because they just waited too long. And then now the transition, it becomes really, really difficult. And that's the same thing what happens with a lot of, you know, when it comes to technology and computers, is like some people are just starting to get into certain things. And this is why with AI, you know, one of those things is like, I always tell people when clients are wise, like, I'm not an AI expert at all. Like I don't. I dabble in it really. But the thing is that I think you need to dabble whether you use it or not in the future. You don't know if you're going to but if you don't know anything about it, it's going to be a challenge, right? It's going to be a challenge for it's going to the leap. The gap sorry is getting larger and larger. And if you don't try to keep somewhat abreast of what's going on that gap, you know, when you do decide that you need it for your business or whatever becomes almost insurmountable. And I think that what stops you from changing.

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. So we've highlighted that obviously there's a fear of separation. And you've also talked about the sheer amount of volume that's involved in effort involving change. The other part is, I think it comes, it's counterintuitive to actually, you know, we've talked about this a lot before where you have companies that are involved in innovation that have a big thriving business that set up another division somewhere in the back corner of their company that is coming up with a new technology that potentially will disrupt the whole mothership. And it becomes really counterproductive because you go, but if I develop this technology, it potentially undermines everything that we've got, the status quo. And we're potentially, there's a whole sunk loss fallacy where you go, I don't want to keep putting money towards this if something new is going to come through. So this you've got to almost have There's cognitive dissonance where you've got to have different parts of your brain having totally opposite views where you're going, we want innovation to grow, but it potentially could destroy what we've currently got. And most people don't want that to be able to say whatever I've got, which is great. I could potentially, it could be obsolete in the next 12, 18 months. If I don't develop another stake or another technology that will supersede it. So I think there's another part of it where you've got to have almost contradictory. mindsets to go to grow and to develop versus to prevent and to shut down.

I think that the worst part, I think when people are young, for especially like a younger generation, it's easier to disrupt yourself and change because you haven't really established yourself enough to hang on to anything particular. So that's why I think a lot of innovations and a lot of companies that may disrupt whatever particular avenue and category, usually is because they're young, because they can adapt. They can adapt quickly too as well. But once a company or you as a person have established yourself, You know, in a, in a particular industry and a career, for example, for maybe 10 years, 20 years, or even 30 years, it's, it becomes a lot harder to really shift. Um, mostly because you're what you said is like, you don't want to disrupt what you've already known. Like this is how you've always known. And it's really hard to, I don't know about you. Like I find it much more difficult to trust disrupt myself now because this is what I've always known. If I disrupt myself now, that means I have to change. I have to like start over again. I have to start learning new things. I'm like,

Yeah.

I haven't learned any new things for such a long time, for example. Like, so it just gets in our brain and it becomes a really, we become static. And so it's a hard concept to hold, to like hold onto the ideas that we actually have, but at the same time, but how do we learn to disrupt that so that we start thinking disruptively if that does no longer valid, what could come out of that? And that holding those two things doesn't mean that it's one or the other. I think that you can have both. at the same time. And you can really see that resistance. I mean, look at the taxi industry, for example, how long that I mean, the taxi industry, when Uber came along, right? And as you still fight, you see the amount of fight from each city is like they're holding on to like, this is what you know, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just saying, like they held on to like the belief and like, this is how the industry is supposed to work. We're supposed to get our license, you know, we paid all this money for our license or a taxi license. And this is how it should stay, you know, and all of a sudden, like now

Yep.

Uber comes along and disrupts the whole entire industry. Of course they don't want it. I wouldn't want it if I was a taxi driver. But at the same time, you also gotta, you gotta see the writings on the wall. You can either fight against it, which is, I think you should, but at the same time also know like, we can only fight for so long before that becomes irrelevant. And that's the challenge you're constantly facing. That's the thing that you always have to kind of strive, strive against. And that's, that happens in your business. That happens in your life. And we have to constantly look at those.

Yep.

look at ourselves in those industries and going like, where can I constantly move towards? And I think this is why we always preach about two things. One, to be an ever learner, like someone who's constantly learning new things. And so that you are constantly being abreast to the new situations and the changing environment. And two, we embrace the art of imperfection, which is knowing that you don't have to be perfect at that next thing. to actually understand it or know it, you just gotta be enough to give it a shot, to be imperfect, to learn from it so that you can actually embrace it and see whether or not it is right for you.

Yeah. And in, in full transparency, I guess, Lawrence, when we first started, even as a concept in terms of doing our podcasts, we went, okay, we're going to start this, we don't know exactly where it'll go. We'll probably start recording and after a while we will start to progress or change or pivot or go in a different direction. And I think even just in the last little while we've been having discussion with you, okay, yeah, I think we've, we've demonstrated that we're prepared to start, we're prepared to. get the momentum going. Where that's taken us, I think we've gotten more clarity on to go, okay, we're gonna go in this direction a little bit more now. And people who are with us and have been with us from the start will suddenly go, hey, there's gonna be a little bit of a shift in terms of where they're going. Still honoring the principles of it, but then as we've gotten clearer, we go, okay, we've got a perspective, we've got our finger on the pulse. These are some generally trends that are happening globally. We wanna be a part of those. And do you remember when... We spoke about this, Lawrence and went, Hey, this is what we already currently do with the people that we support. We potentially could be entering in a space where the people that we start working with are different to the ones that we're starting to work with right now, are working with right now. And I think that as we start to get clearer on the trends and we become a part of those, I think we'll naturally see that playing out as well too.

Absolutely, I think the most important thing we want to stress upon is that if you're not willing to change, if you're not willing to change different aspects of your life, you are going to be left behind. And leaving being left behind is a terrible feeling because it's so hard to catch up with what we talked about with the gap. And I think it's, I encourage everybody to really think through this question, which is how would you disrupt yourself? How would you, if you stop thinking about like, you know, protecting your...

Yeah.

career or your profession or your business, you know, what if you had to disrupt your business? Like just say you're an entrepreneur coming to go like to disrupt your industry, how would you do it? I think thinking that is such an important element because it allows you to really, it allows you to one, think of ideas and how to protect yourself, right? To stop being irrelevant. But two, you might actually think of new ideas that you never would have thought of because you never entertain the idea of disrupting yourself or your business. I think that's such an important idea to ensure that you always learn to ask that question with how would you disrupt yourself or how would you disrupt your, if you're just a solopreneur and you have a, as a solopreneur business, then you should ask yourself, like what if you just somehow, what if your income was disrupted? How would you do it? How would you live? I think that's an important question because if you don't, it will happen to you and then now you have no idea what to do. But if you thought about that question,

Totally.

and you maybe lean into other things, you might actually have a chance, you know, three to five years at a time.

Yeah. So, and let's, let's revisit the whole AI scope because it's been front and center in so many discussions that we've had in through here that generally the industries that have been spoken about will, that will be most vulnerable to this technology are the ones where there is repetitive activity that can be automated. So, you know, a lot of the time things that have been flagged are traditional bookkeeping, even accounting. those kind of industries suddenly have basically been, can be automated. Even, you know, I have basically a background in finance. And so there's a huge level of automation that's going in the finance industry as well. And this is what I'd love to get to as well is, how do we embrace it? How do we not fight it, but how do we work with it? So it's kind of like a, you know, if you've got a wave coming through, you're either gonna rush into it, you're gonna ignore it, or you're gonna surf the wave. And to me, it's like perhaps how we can start coming up with ideas and how we work with the waves. But even traditional industry like law are going to be disrupted with new technology. So you may have gone to yourself, I'm going to go and learn a trade, craft, a career to suddenly realize that the landscape is changing. And you need to adapt because the elements of what you traditionally thought might have been forever are no longer the case.

Yeah, I think every industry is going to get disrupted and, uh, from, you know, the lay of the land of everybody I've spoken to and various industries, everybody's trying to figure out how to adapt AI. I still feel like it's still in early stages. I mean, like I said, I'm not an AI expert. I mean, I just, I really just dabble in it. And, but I, I like anybody else, I don't want to be left behind. So I just kind of play around with it. You know, and I, you know, for example, I just signed up for chat GPT four, for example, it's just a, I just want to. have a feel and see like, what is everybody talking about? Like, what am I using it for? And you know, I was just on the podcast for it's called something called Beyond Seven Podcasts, Beyond Seven Figures podcast with my friend Charles Gordat and he asked me this question and we just got into a conversation, I'm pretty sure I just covered this in the last podcast, I may have, may not mentioned it. Okay, right. Yeah, so if you listen to the podcast, one of the things he did was he basically, you know, I'll talk about, you know, a whole bunch of things regards to like, how do you, you know, he actually just asked.

You mentioned about it, but you didn't go into depth. And yeah.

on chat GBT about like, you know, how, how would say chiropractic be disrupted by 2028? And it's just gave out like three major problems that, you know, we face. And I was like, Oh my God, that's an existential threat, threat for sure. You know, and then, but they also, chat GB also said, he goes, well, here's three things that you could be doing or thinking about that could actually, you know, prevent that from happening. It's like, okay, well, that's, you know, interesting. And so I think, I think from an AI perspective, there's

Hmm.

so young and so much to be learned. There's so much expert out there, but also be careful because everybody's an expert around AI. And I think it's such one of those things. I think really kind of be careful who you choose because anybody can be an expert or call themselves an expert. And that's why I'm saying I am definitely not an expert. But you know, but I think you definitely should everybody should try because you don't need to be an expert to use it. My wife, who's not really tech savvy, she literally just planned our you know, holiday from two weeks ago in Switzerland, Germany, and France using ChatGPD and he's like, we're going to find in this area, we have six days, we have these kids and what would you do? What would you recommend? And ChatGPD gave us like a six day itinerary of exactly where we should go, where we should stay, what we should do. She took that and kind of fine tuned it and just researched and then boom, like it, like our whole six days were planned by ChatGPD was awesome, you know? And some people might, oh my God, that is so scary. I'm like.

Yeah. Okay.

Well, it's scary if you don't know anything about it. So see, that's the thing though. If it's scary, what ends up happening is that you just avoid it completely. You know, what scares you, you kind of avoid it. I'm saying like, I don't know. I think AI can be very scary. I don't know where it's gonna head to. And I've kind of listened to a couple of podcasts of people like, we know where it's going and how it can affect us and where it can be really dangerous and how it could also be beneficial. I don't know where it's gonna go because we don't know who's gonna be using it.

Yeah. Hmm. Yep. Hmm.

And it can be dangerous, but anything can be dangerous. You know, anything can be dangerous, right? A knife can be dangerous if you put, you know, a knife can be used for good if you're cutting a piece of steak, eating a beautiful dinner. But a knife could also be dangerous if you put it in the wrong hands of a murderer who can kill you. So I think it's the same thing with the AI. It's it depends on who you put that technology in the hands of. And yes, will there be people who are gonna abuse it? Yeah, absolutely. And, but there's also gonna be people who can use it and actually do something.

Yep, yep, yep.

with some good with it. So I think the results will speak for itself. I don't know how much control we can have, but I do believe though, we need to arm ourselves to be able to know on how can we can utilize this on a day-to-day basis and create things that are so much better that you would just take in so much time. I'll give you an example. Yesterday, I had to read this book or I'm supposed to read this book. And I'm like, I don't... I don't really have that much interest in reading this book, you know, but I was told like I should read this book I'm like, yeah, like this is maybe I just took a picture of the book and just put it to chat chibi t I'm like, could you give me a overall summary of what this book is about? Give me ten major points that I should learn from this book and give me five actionable steps of What I can do and it just spat it out like in I don't know less than three minutes I'm like damn like that is

Hmm. Yep. Hmm, hmm, hmm.

That's pretty cool. And now I can make a decision, like whether I want to spend more time reading this book or just read the summary and go like, I got most of that, you know? And I think this is where the challenge is where you can really create, there's so many different ideas that anybody can have, but like anything, a tool is only a tool unless you know how to use it. But you're not going to know how to use it if you don't play around with it.

Yep. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. So there's a couple of things just in the, in what you were talking about too. I mean, you talked about the itinerary that you went through now, traditionally, your travel agents would have gone through that process. You would have gone and coordinated. So suddenly that as an industry already, the moment that you could book your own flights on internet, the preeminence of travel agents decrease. So consequently now there's going to be another push in that regard. So If you're a travel agent and you want to be in that industry, you would say, okay, bearing in mind that people could do that. Where can I add value to this rather than actually trying to hold back the flood and the tide coming through, it's about going knowing what I know. Now, if I want to stay in this industry, what would I need to do? What would be my point of difference? How could I add value? And so you may have to challenge yourself to come up with ways of adding value. So for example, if. You know, like I'll talk about the finance industry, Lawrence, because a lot of the repetitive, automated stuff is going to be gone and it's going to be done. And it's going to be simplified. And as a percentage of, of people who are looking for loans that fit within the, a model that are going to be automated, it can be done very, very quickly. The vast majority of ones that are out of left field, harder are going to need specialization. And they're going to be ones that you can position yourself in as the person who goes through a hand holding process or a bespoke solution, et cetera, that's gonna appeal to a particular type of person there as well too. So there's growth opportunities for both. It's, you know, in the industry, in finance, they're going, should we be scared of it or not? And there's people are saying, if you're an early adopter, as opposed to a laggard, if you're looking at this and going, asking these really key questions, how can I use this as opposed to a, what should I be scared of and what can I ignore for as long as possible? you're then putting yourself in a position where you can actually benefit from the upswing of the trajectory as opposed to being scared of.

Yeah, I mean, look at the school industry, for example. I mean, the issue of education has drastically changed. I mean, when we used to learn, we just had to memorize, right? I mean, we used to have to go to the library and look up things in the encyclopedia and stuff for searching of things, right? And looking at textbooks. Now, you know, and then the next generation, all they have to do is just Google it. But this generation, like they literally, so my son, like my kids are getting to that age when they start asking me questions, like I have no idea. Like my daughter's coming to me like, could you explain like how, you know,

Yep. Yeah.

acid and you know this and I'm like I haven't touched that stuff in like 40 years like I'm not gonna remember and she gets frustrated with me I'm like you're supposed to be smart dad I'm like oh my god right oh I forgot she's listening to these podcasts um so it's frustrating for me because I feel stupid I feel so dumb right because I know like I know I knew it at that time but you know the hard part for me was that I thought I could just read the textbook and then these information would come back to me but they don't have textbooks anymore

Yeah.

I don't usually use textbooks. I'm like, well, this does not help me. So my son comes up to me and goes, can you explain, he was just this math question. I have no idea. I'm like, I don't know this concept. So then I go, you know what, let's do this together. He goes, let's go on Chat TV. He goes, but I already asked him, maybe you didn't ask it the right way. So maybe, so now we're teaching him asking the right way. And so we ask him, as a 12 year old, explain to me, I can't remember the exact topic, whatever blank topic. And Chat TV was awesome.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, let me explain to you. Let's explain it to you like a video game. And he just went through, I'm like, oh my God. Like that is brilliant. I'm like, I would not have thought about that. And now I get to learn something because you know, I learned better as a 12 year old than a 48 year old. But it's like now against the concept. So now the kids, like, well, some people say, well, that's unfair. They're not really learning anything. Well, no, they are. They're just not learning the same way. Now they're learning how to.

Wow.

you know, create more inputs and prompts and how to think through problems a little bit differently. Sure, now it's not about memorization anymore. It's about like, it's not about memorization. It should never have been about memorization. It should be about how to learn. That's what educating is about. And so that industry is being changed. I don't know if you saw this, Jim, there is this like new device that's coming out. Or well, I think by the time this, actually it's coming out this week. So by the time anybody watches it, you would have seen it. It's called like, it's called by a company called Humane, I think, and it's like called an AI clip. Right? And basically it's like a little clip that you wear on your shirt. Magnetic clip and stuff. And it's got a camera on it. So it takes pictures and can audio record and it's basically, yeah, it acts like your phone and you go, Oh, wait a second. No, no one's going to disrupt the phone industry. Right? I'm not saying it will. I'm not saying it will cause it's very clunky still, but this is the thought process, right? It basically projects all the menu on your hand, on the palm of your hand.

Okay.

Right? So you can actually use your hand justice to change all the menus and settings and stuff. It's just a small little device like a square little device on your chest. And one of the cool, it's a projection into your head. Yeah. Projects it into your hand and you can change the menu score and scroll and stuff like that. It does a whole bunch of things. You can actually scroll through. I can call you. I can go, could you call Jim please? Or I can go, you know, uh, can you tell me when Jim actually sent me, he sent me a PDF on a Wabi Sabi on episode two and the summary of that. Could you send, could you, uh, find that?

Hmm. Like a projector. Like a projector. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. Yeah.

Instead of me having to scroll, the AI is going to find that message from like maybe seven months ago. Right. And rather than me scrolling through all the messages, like, so things like that is, is what's, this was what's cool. Right. It's very still clunky. I'm saying it's very clunky. Wasn't that impressed with the, the promotion, but this is, this is version 1.0. Right. And so Jim, let's say you are in, in Spain and you are, you know, you go up to someone and they talk to you in Spanish. You press the button, the person talks to you in Spanish.

Hmm.

And the AI translate and basically goes, oh, so Jim, hi, great to see you. How was your Sunday? And you go, well, thank you, Lawrence. My Sunday was awesome. We went to, you know, had dinner at this restaurant and it was fantastic. And then press, and then the AI thinks about it a little bit for a bit, that's where the lag is still there. And then it translate in Spanish back to this person in your tone and in your voice. Right? Like that, so then you start thinking, what am I learning Portuguese for?

Yep. Yeah.

So by the time I actually, so then you start thinking like, do we need like, you know, let's say the iteration goes exponentially over the next few years, right? Which I think it will. You start to realize, I'm like, well, you know, learning, I'm not saying we shouldn't learn language because it's obviously stemming different parts of our brain, but now you're creating like, eliminating borders, you know, in terms of communication with different people and different languages. Like, just think about the, I mean, that's just one small little thing on how we communicate and how we do things. And all of a sudden, like, that's a game changer.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, especially language. Yeah, except, except I mean, when you're talking about language, like I was so excited about Google Translate and the ability to be able to translate that and how of a game changer that was. This is next level in there as well too. That suddenly you go, this is amazing because what you're doing is what's the biggest breakdown in communication with language, not being able to basically adequately communicate.

And we as consumers... Yes.

And that's been the hardest thing for me too. Like, you know, if I, I'm just going to backtrack a bit and go in coming to another country was not so much. Cause there's a level of confidence that you have in your own language that you can communicate that you suddenly lose when you're trying to communicate it in another language, cause you don't know it well, but if you can somehow communicate in your own voice with your own tonality and that can be communicated, then people are then going to read that conversation in the way that it's intended rather than tentatively. So that's, that's how I take it.

Yes. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. And it just creates more bonds, creates more relationships, and it just gets things done, right? And I think this is where the world we're living in, and we're using these as examples because we're showing you that there are so many things that are happening at this moment, and we really need to start to consider what other areas in our life, I think this is important, I've been asking this question in my life, what areas in my life am I being disrupted in?

the advantage of that.

and where I need to kind of really figure out how to change. Because I want, like you said early in the, at the beginning of the podcast, it's about like riding the wave, right? You gotta stay ahead of the curve. You gotta stay ahead of the wave. That's the only way you're gonna surf it, right? If you don't stay ahead, like the waves are passing by you and you're just like putting your head down and you realize like you just missed it. And that's what I don't wanna do. Now, I'm not saying you have to embrace every single technology change that's out there, but I think it's important to just keep, and you know, the pulse of what's going on, because. I think as we get older, this is what I'm saying is as we get older, I think it's harder, it becomes harder and harder to keep up with the changes happening. And just because the speed is coming faster and I don't know about you, it's like, that's where I struggle with. And I'm trying to not push away and trying to like just try to keep up as best as I can. But you know, I know that change is inevitable in everything that we happened and I have to this podcast, my life, my business, where money comes from, where we save.

Yep.

where we invest, all these things are changing. And if you just think that, oh, I'll just put my money here and it will be fine for the next 10, 20 years, I think that's a dangerous move, right? It may have been solid for the last 20, 30 years, but is it gonna be solid for the next 20, 30 years? You know, on paper, it looks like projections could be right, but is it though? You know, is it?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's based on the presupposition that the establishment and the current reality will, will be around and you just don't know. That's, that's the situation and scenario. And I agree with you, Lawrence. I think as you do get older, you seek reassurance in the comfort, in the known, and it becomes difficult or different to seek that out. You know, like you can. You know, a lot of my friends that I know and I love them dearly still stick, listen to the 1970s, 1980s music. And it was awesome. And it was great. And I love the rebadged versions when it's a 2023 version of a 1980 song. And I've got these young guys singing it and I'm seeing all the words and like, how do you know all these words? I'm like, dude, I remember it the first time around, but because I'm up to date. So I deliberately do put myself in this scenario where it's music, whether it's food, whether it's different.

Yeah.

because I tried to, I don't want to be the old fuddy duddy that just says, you know, back in my day, you, you know, sure, you're going to feel like threatened by it. It's going to feel overwhelming, but I grew with you. I think leaning in, particularly as you get comfortable and older is really important to keep adapting and growing because the pace of change is the fact of what might've taken 20 years before is taking six months now. And that, that period of time where you just sit back and don't keep up, that becomes the gap becomes wider and wider. Very.

Well, if you think about exercise and fitness, right? I mean, one of the best ways for us to get fitter and healthier is actually doing a variety of different things. Change, like, you know, for you, especially when you, you know, you're doing your martial arts and freaking twice a day, I don't know how you do it, Jim, but you know, you, you do these intense training, but like not ever sing and not a single day goes by. That's exactly the same as last time. You know, when we grew up, it was like bench press, front squats.

Hmm.

Right. You know, leg curls, forget the squats. It was like leg curls on machine, bench press, and you know, back, you know, lats, pull downs. Like that was the exact same exercise every single day.

He's the beach bodybuilder. It'd be just the biceps and triceps and the chest, man. Everything else was... Ha ha ha.

Exactly, just curls and like triceps, you know, it's all we did, right? And then the only work like, you know, maybe six muscles or six, six to eight muscles and that's it. But you know, you might've looked good, but you weren't functional. Right. And this is where the functionalist fitness really kind of took off. Is it realized? I'm like, yeah, you might look good, but you're not actually strong. You're not strong in everything because that's where functional fitness is. Like you put yourself in situations where you got to put yourself in a situation where you are put.

Yep. Yep. Yeah.

in situation where you are actually picking up, today, I went grocery shopping with my wife just before, you're picking up bags, right? That's a farmer's, you know, that's a farmer's carry. Like you got heavy stuff, and you're basically carrying stuff. Like that's normal day-to-day activity, right? You don't actually train for that if, you know, back in the day, you know, that's not a movement that you actually will pick up. And so it's like, so you can tell from a fitness perspective, putting ourselves in variety situations, not just in strength training, but also sometimes you gotta do a bit of cardio, you gotta mix the two of them.

thumbs carry. Yep.

and doing a variety of different movements. That's what actually that type of change in our body movements and posture is actually what gets us stronger. Well, I think that same type of thinking is exactly what happens to our business and our personal life.

Yep. Yeah. You know, you're right. Um, growing up, Lawrence, that was it. I was the traditional powerlifter guy and I did the martial arts as well too. And that was traditionally two or three compound exercises. That's what you did. And, but part of the reason that the allure that I love in jujitsu for me is it's a multifactor thing. It's like, not only am I getting the physical, um, benefits of it, but there's so many routines like. to explain your duty to someone, it's like, imagine I've got to move and you've got to counter to that move and I've got to counter to that move. And that process can happen indefinitely until one of us submits or it technically can go on and on and on and you've got different permutations. So it challenges your mind. It's like when they talk about dancing and movement and remembering steps and songs, it explodes your brain. It's really, really cool. But you're right about the functionality of it because a lot of the exercise was in. practical and you and I do see guys that I used to train with who haven't really adapted them their Their training to try different things and their whole body's rigid. It's stiff. It's tight now I'm banged up and I get injured in there, but there's an adaptation that I've made and And I that's what was the biggest trending in lifting is CrossFit and bringing the functionality of that in there and making It on a practical level of funny story my lovely wife, but then she's done powerlifting competitions, super, super strong woman. And, and she decided a while ago, listen, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to basically gradually allow nature to take a stall. I'm going to go gray gracefully. And so she's on, it's really cool. She's on a train and all these young men and women get up and let her sit down, which is really cool. Um, I would just laugh in my guts out. I could not stop laughing.

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But we go to the supermarket and she's got all these bags and someone will go, do you want me to lift these up? And they try and shift them and she can't, they can't move. And she just picks them up and moves it across. Hilarious when you know, 50 something year old lady, um, is doing things where people have this judgment of that. But she made the decision a while ago to go, I'm not going to go down this path. I need to challenge myself. It can't be, you know, comfort is the enemy.

Awesome. Yeah. Hmm.

of, of progress in that regard, you know, and you can't keep moving forward. So she challenged herself specifically to go, I have to prioritize this in strength to keep progressing, moving forward. Cause if the status quo is that I just don't, I'll start decaying. And that's really what we're talking about. The decay, the obsolescence, the, all those kinds of things that we're talking about is that when you're not paying attention and challenging yourself, I want to stay comfortable rather than really move forward.

Mmm. Yeah, and I wanna be very clear on this too as well. I'm not saying that you have to like, I feel like sometimes when we discuss, and you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like sometimes we're saying that we have to change because we're gonna be relevant in our business and everything else. And that to an extent, I do think that is a thing that we should be worried about. But I'm also taking another stance on this is that I'm not saying that you have to be ambitiously changing everything in your life. if that's not what you want. But I think you do have to change some things in your life on a regular basis. And what I mean by that is like, if we don't challenge our brain, if we don't change the way we think, we don't change the way we think through our process, we're gonna lose that too, right? If you don't change certain habits in your life and you eat the same thing as you did when you were 30 years old or 40 years old, I think, you know, I think we're gonna be challenged in our health. And we see that over and over again. I'm not saying I'm doing it right. All I'm saying is that I think change is inevitable, meaning like change is inevitable in various things. We're talking sometimes at a high level in terms of business and people who are really ambitious, but I wanna also bring it back to the people who are like, I don't wanna change. I'm, you know, I'm 55 years old, I'm 60 years old and listening to this, I'm like, I've had enough, I'm not gonna wanna change. Okay, great, awesome. But you still gotta challenge yourself to change a little bit, like whether it be your mental capacity and everything else.

Yep.

Because if you don't, you're literally going to, you're thinking, you're predicting as if 20 years from now, the life that you are living, your body and your mind, is gonna be at the same pace as you were now. And the reality is, I know I'm feeling this, I don't know about you, Jim, like I'm sure you're feeling it too. I was just talking to someone yesterday, I'm like, I'm not healing as well as I used to. I'm not thinking as well as I used to. I'm not moving as well as I used to. even though my brain doesn't tell me, it's like, I think I am, right? But I know that I have my healing process. Like, you know, my eye surgery, as I mentioned, I think my last podcast, I had more eye surgery like two days ago, unfortunately, you know, just to correct a few things. Like that's just an indication to me. I'm like, man, I'm getting old, right? Like these things are happening. And I asked the doctor, I'm like, so why did this happen? It's like age. I'm like, that's it? Like, it wasn't anything I'm doing? Like, no, it was a...

Mm, yeah. Hmm. Hmm.

It was inevitable that it was going to happen to you. Like, you know, based on your age, it happens to everybody at 50 years old. And it happens to every single one of us. It just so happened that mine tore and some people didn't tear. And so that these things that are happening to me is starting to realize, I'm like, okay, I'm starting to, I'm not getting scared of dying, but I'm definitely more aware of it now. Because people around me are...

Hmm. Mmm.

Certain people, you know, had a couple of uncertain deaths, you know, that I've come to know and you start, I don't know, every time I hear about these stories, you start to read this, I'm like, man, life is fragile, right? Like life is, could happen just like that. And when you put those moments, I'm like, what am I doing? Like, you know, why am I not pursuing this or why am I not doing this? Why am I not changing X? Because at the end of it, it's done. There's no more time to do that, right? There's no more of those changes.

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

And that's like really reinforcing myself now because I'm one of my 20, you don't think about it because death seems so far away, right? I'm not saying I'm dying, I feel like I'm a halfway only, but still, like it's definitely more in my consciousness now than ever before. And that's really kind of been shaking in my head to go really got to stop thinking this way, or you really got to stop pulling your punches in these areas.

Yeah, yeah.

kind of go for it. And I don't know if you've been feeling this way, but that's what I've been thinking.

Actually, yeah, look, I just yeah that was profound for you there because I there was a there was a pause where I could just You know, I love having the video that we could see because even though we're in different countries I've got a real hit that that's really big for you Right, so I totally got the significance of it and yeah the same sort of thing for me You know, like I was just talking to my wife Bettina where I just said in the last six months. I've had glasses I've had

Hmm.

two MRIs and I went to the dentist the other day, I need orthodontic care as well and add the hearing aid potentially and I've suddenly went, okay, gee, there's the mortality, there's the aging. I've had some friends pass away and so they're the changes that are happening, I guess in the life that they're happening irrespective of whether I wanna change them or not. I can ignore those or I can embrace them. So I could, I could have a health challenge just like you could have, and I can totally ignore it and go, Oh no, I'm not going to do anything about it. The courage takes leaning into it, even though it's not necessarily something you want to acknowledge or admit to, but you're basically going, here's the reality of the situation. You know, uh, you know, for me, it's like, Hey, I'm having trouble walking, you know, or I walk now and I've got a little, a slight limp in there. So I can allow that to define me or I can actually go, okay, what can I do within the elements of what I can do and how can I optimize what I'm already doing? So, but for me to ignore and go, no, it's not there, it's not there, not there, not there, suddenly I might get to the point where I can't do anything. And it was because of my reluctance to acknowledge the truth in the situation, albeit difficult, but to actually do something about it. And I think that when you're an early adopter, And because of, you know, we always looked at it as an entry point from us from health was while you can do something about it, do something about it. Because if you don't and the opportunity comes and goes, or the time passes you by what you're left with is regret. And I could have, would have, should have, but you'd haven't, you'd actually didn't do anything. And I think there's multiple levels. This is not really about AI. It's about embracing the difficult things and leaning into them. in the clunky awkward ways, but still taking action in the direction you want to go for fit. For you, if you're looking at it saying, Hey, I'm aware of these limitations that are coming up out of left field here and they're creeping up on me. What do I do? Well, I can focus on the things that are within my control to give me my best ability to adapt to them, but I don't want to ignore them either. Cause if I ignore them, it could turn out worse.

Hmm. Yeah. And I heard, um, I think there's Morgan Howser who talked about this on a podcast recently. And he said that, you know, when bad things happen, usually they're sudden, like they're really instant. You know, you think about like, so my retina terror or a heart attack or nine 11, or, you know, like any, like, you know, hurricane, like, it's usually instant and it, we feel the ripple effects and so impactful because it just happens in that one moment of time and it has this ripple effect. But anything good

Hmm.

typically never happens in an instant. It usually takes a long time exponentially to kind of get to that phase. You know, building your business, you created a success, you got the business of the year or whatever, you earned a million dollars or whatever it is, but didn't happen, sure, it happened in that moment, but it took like 15 years or 20 years to kind of get to that stage, right? And the same thing when it comes to health, right? Or it comes to our life. It's like we have to chip away at it. And I think that's the challenging part is anything worth our while usually takes time.

Yeah.

And so that's why we focus so much on the negativity because it happens so clearly and that instantly we go, oh, we just like that happened in that moment. But anything good is usually have taken so much time. And this is where I really think about like the sports that I play, the exercise that I do. Yeah, of course I'm getting fit now, but I'm actually thinking about my future. Like I don't wanna be that 60 year old, 70 year old who can't move. Like I'm trying to do my best to increase my muscle mass and movement and stuff so that I ensure that

Mmm. Yeah.

Cause I know it's deteriorating. Like whether I want to admit it or not, like I know it's happening. Like I know it's going to downhill. It's going to go down downhill slope. You know, studies have shown many times like it's harder to build. And so therefore I'm trying to amp up as much as I can so that my decrease is lessened, but I have to do things every single day. I have to do anything, whatever it takes to really kind of move towards that. And they think that's what we're talking about is willing to change.

Yep.

to know that you have to have the mindset going, change is inevitable, right? It's happening whether you like it or not. So therefore you have a choice today to do something about that. And again, if you ignore that, you have a choice again tomorrow. And again, the next day. But sooner or later, these hundreds of hundreds of thousands of days will add up if you don't do anything about it. And that's when it was almost too late. And that's the gap that we were talking about before.

Hmm. Yeah. You know, it's a good example of that. The ability to get that timing right. Like, uh, I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I played cricket for many years. And one of my favorite, favorite experiences when I got to play a match, a senior match with both my boys and we timed it that I was on the decline. Like I'd done what I was going to do. And I was declining.

Hmm.

and they were on the incline. And so we kind of met each other for a period of a season or maybe four or five games, but one specific game that I got to play with both my boys and it's the greatest honor. And for me, it was like acknowledging that dude, the best of you is past you in that regard. That's okay, but you're gonna still be competitive at the level that you are, but your kids that are coming up there, they're 14, 15, 16, they're on the up trajectory and you kind of met each other. And...

Amazing. Yeah.

I think that's, that's really what I took out of what you basically said is we both want to be giving the best of ourselves, acknowledging that the best of ourselves at 70 is going to be different to one at 30, but it's a mindset. It's, it's, it's doing the best you can with the skillset you have, and you've got to work harder and harder just to stay in the same spot. That's that's in there. So you can look at it and go, poor me, or you can go, man, I'm okay.

Yeah, so much harder.

Next. It's like, I remember the rock basically says it's, it's either day one or one day. Well, it's day one because it's like tomorrow is the day where you actually take the power back and you move towards the direction you want to go, whether it's your health, whether it's in your business, whether it's embracing challenges that are coming, but rather than putting it off and thinking about it one day or, or relegating it to, uh, basically by putting your head in the sand.

Yeah.

What we're basically saying is wherever you are, that's okay. That's the clumsy, awkward, clunky part of life. Choose it as day one and lean into that and be at the forefront of change as opposed to at the effect of it. That to me is what is more empowering than actually looking around and going, what happened, I missed it all.

Yeah, no, absolutely right. And basically, I think, you know, we can summarize is that one is changes inevitable. You know, two is that you have to chip away at it every single day, you got to fight it, you got to, you know, keep moving towards it, you know, whether it be big or small is your choice, you decide. And three, it's like, time is limited. You know, I think the number one fact is that we're all going to die. And I love what I think Jordan Peterson said, like, it's life is so funny thing, because it's like, we're all in, like, this is the we're all in like, it's something that is the only thing in life that we're just like, we're all in like, that's it. Like there's only one life and then you're all gonna die. And so it's what you do with it. And I think that these facts are there and you have a choice every single day to make this a great life or a life that you regret. And I think that's for me, it's the thing that has kept me moving.

I'm sorry.

is like that fear of regret that has that for me, and I'm not saying that's for everybody, but that right there, that fear regret drives me every single time to make big decisions to go after certain things. That's why I'm here in Portugal. That's why I let you know, went to Sydney and that's why I left for short. It's like the fear of like not doing it and recognizing I could be sitting somewhere and going, man, I could have done that. Man, that haunts me. That haunts me. That thought haunts me.

Yeah. Yep. Hmm. Mmm.

so hard and that's what keeps me going. That keeps me moving forward. So I hope that helps to challenge you and challenge your thinking and create change for your life. Any lasting words before we go?

Yeah. Yeah, I was about to say Lawrence, what you just said, that really struck a chord with me too, because that's my compelling drive as well too. And it's not, you know, when they've looked at the weight of emotion and some of the worst feelings in life, they used to think guilt and shame were the lowest ones where you don't feel, but they found one which is, and I give credit to Authentic Education Australia helped me recognise this, it's called untransmuted And that knowing that you've died with music still left in you is a really heavy burden to carry. And that's the one that keeps me awake at night sometimes and keeps me moving forward. Not because I feel like I'm less than, but it's like there is more out there. What is it that I'm meant to do? And that's a compelling drive that I keep going. So I can feel the emotion in your voice. I can see it. I echo it and understand it. And that's why we're on this journey together.

Yeah, man. It's, uh, it's great to have you with me and great for you to keep on pushing me. I love it. And, uh, you know, you actually inspire me, man. You inspire me to keep, keep. Yeah. Vamos, vamos. All right, guys. I hope you enjoyed this pretty good podcast. And I think that, uh, you know, something that I hope that inspires you to go take some action on, you know, your life and I'd love to hear about like what you would want to change. But more importantly, I'd love for you to like this, share this with other people in this podcast. Our goal is to reach as many people as possible. And so I'd love for you to share this.

Yeah. Let's go, let's go. Both, both.

and tell people about Wabi Sabi and the art of imperfection. Until next time, we'll see you next week on the Wabi Sabi Show.