Where's home?

Welcome to Wabi Sabi podcast here. Me, myself and Jim are back. And the reason why we're back, you probably don't notice any difference, but we are back on fire simply because we haven't been recording for at least four weeks. Now you wouldn't notice that because obviously we have been batching these recordings for quite some time. But to just, I wanted to let you know this right off the bat is because if you see a little bit of energy, a little bit of spark in us, it's mostly because it's not because we had a good week, because we had a good month.

Yeah. Yeah.

And we've been away and we've been traveling and we've been on holidays and we've been doing a lot of things. Jim's been, you know, really running an event and retreat and I've been away spending some time with my family who I haven't seen in about four years. So it's been a big, big month.

Yeah, it has. And you're right. The energy of it, we got on and basically just started to talk and it was like catching up on everything, which was fantastic. It's like, hey, listen, let's just channel this. Let's just bring this into our podcast recording because there's so many themes and micro discussions that we had to start, which I think it'd be great to unpack and talk about during our podcast today.

Well, this Wabi Sabi journey has always been a journey of reflection about, you know, what we're going through and the imperfection of life and the things that are going on. And I think this is why it's so important to talk about those journeys. And for me, you know, going back home, oh, I'm going to catch myself there. Sorry, I'll correct. I'll reference like with quote unquote home where I came from in Canada. And the first time I've seen my dad and my brother in four years time, it was really made me question. the word home. That's sort of the big realization. And for me, it was a really great journey. It was obviously great to see family. And to be honest, I haven't seen some of my uncles and aunts for over 20 years because they, yeah. So they, actually my godfather and godmother was there. I haven't seen in 20 years and she couldn't recognize me. She's like, oh my God. Like she just did not recognize me. And you know, people seem strange. Like that's so long.

Holy smoke, that's a long time.

that you haven't seen them. Well, like I lived in Australia. I never realized, by the way, Jim, sorry, to kind of go on a slight tangent. I mean, I know Australia is really far, but now that I'm in Europe and a little closer to Canada, I realize how far Australia actually is. And it makes sense to me why I haven't seen some of my family members for 20 years is because, you know, if I'm going to go away off the island and going to go somewhere, I'm going to make sure it's, you know, make sure I go do some vacation and stuff. And it's not the first thing I would go is to go visit.

I know. Yep. Yeah.

aunts and uncles that are not necessarily the closest to me, if that makes any sense. But anyways.

Totally. I've been the same. I've been the same. I've actually become, you know, how, you know, if I moved from Melbourne to Darwin, moved from quite a cold environment to a very tropical environment. And the first year I went, I couldn't believe people were wearing jumpers in what I perceived as 28, 30 degree temperature. I'm like, are you kidding? This is crazy. But you know, after a year I was doing the same thing as you were climatized to the environment. And now I've become.

Yep.

European centric in that I also look at it and go, gee, that's a long way away. Like all this time. And, and so I'll still do it, but I have to psych myself up in a different way. Whereas when we were from Australia going out, we that you just didn't know anything different. That's the norm. That's what you do. That's it. That's what you do.

It's the norm, like 24, 26 hours is like whatever, but I gotta go fly to go to Bali, running a retreat in Bali. And I'm looking at a flight, I'm like, holy crap, 26 hours. I'm like, okay, gotta go back. And it's like, you know, it's been a while, you know, but when you're from there, which is really an interesting concept, if you're from that, and I always noticed every person I ever go to a seminar and meet in like North America, and they go, wow, you're from Australia. Like, man, that's amazing, you come from a long way. I'm like, yeah, but it's just a daily commute to me. Like, it's no big deal. I literally have gone to

Yeah.

from Perth to Toronto and back in span of three days. I literally was in the air for longer than I was actually in Toronto. So to me, it was the norm, but I guess for people it is somewhat different. Now that I'm here, I am definitely switch. It's like that concept of like familiarity and comfort, right, where when you're living in your own neighborhood, typically you don't see the things that you normally would see. Like I lived in Toronto most of my life in my early years. And...

Yep, yep.

Have I been to every place in Toronto? Absolutely not because I lived there. I didn't need to see anything. Right. So unless you're a tourist, you tend to not see everything. And, you know, because you're as a tourist, you have a different mindset. You go into a city, you go, I need to see everything because I'm only here for a few days. So you kind of like do that onslaught. And I learned that now when I go to, when I actually moved to Lisbon, I made an intention to see it as a tourist. I did the Tuk tours, I did all the touristy things as I could so that I know if I don't do it now, I won't do it now. It'll be 10 years later and I'm gonna be like, oh, I never did any of that because I saw, I just kind of lived here. So I think that's an intentional thing. But how I wanna translate this is really about comfort zone and meaning comfort zone. When you're living in an environment that you're familiar with over and over and over again.

Yep.

You have a tendency of not wanting to change or see anything different. And that's where I want to kind of bring, you know, this episode about, because what I found, uh, regards to, you know, being back in Toronto, um, sure. Houses are different, you know, brand new houses are, you know, old houses have been knocked down, new houses are been brought up, but fundamentally the streets were all the same. I still recognize all the street. I knew how to get around for majority without a map. I knew most of the things, but. You know what didn't really felt changed though was just didn't nothing really felt changed. Like things got older, you know, like, and it was kind of weird to be back at my house that I grew up in. It's still there and I lived in it. It was weird. I had like my dad. Oh my God. So small, so small, right? Yeah. Cause you see us on a different perspective. I thought it was my, I thought I had a huge house. I mean, we'd still do in relative terms, but it was a lot bigger than I ever thought it was. And my dad has kept.

Hmm. Did it feel small? Did it feel small again? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And sorry, dad, if you're listening to this, but my dad has kept my desk from when I was 12 years old. It's still there. I believe they still have my desk from university. It's like nothing's changed. It's like my friend, best put it, it's like he came, he's a real estate agent, he walked into my house because my dad wanted to get evaluated and get some thoughts. And he's like, it's like walking into a time capsule. It's my oldest friend, because I've known him since I was like grade seven or something. And he's like walking down, and it's so true.

Wow. Yep.

Like, sure, certain things have changed, but not, there's a lot of things that hasn't changed. And to me, that's a really, it hit me hard because I had a sliding door moment when I was in Toronto. And the sliding door moment was like, if I didn't leave 21 years ago, this is my life. Right, I'm not judging it. I'm just saying it would have been a totally different life. So, I had no idea, Jim.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally get that. Yeah, I totally get that. You know, when you were saying that, it's funny because when I grew up, you know, when I went to primary school, used to play sport in the, in the quadrangle in the schoolyard. And it felt like huge. And I remember having this student teacher coming and we were playing basketball and he's dunked this basket and all us little kids are like, wow, this is phenomenal. This is fantastic. It was only like 15, 20, 30 years later, I can't remember exactly when, when I visited the ground and I realized that the net was really halfway out my chest. So it's the perspective of that. And I think, and I've suddenly gone, of course you slam dunked it dude, because from my point of view, that you, that you were a giant, you were huge. And I think that that's what's happened for you and I, and, and I guess people who expand outside.

Ha ha. You were huge. Yeah, yeah.

their comfort zone of reality is that it, not that there's anything wrong, but when you expand your wings, I think it was all of them went to homes and said, the human mind once stretched can never return to its original dimensions. And I think to an element that that's what I felt is that if I didn't stretch myself, if I didn't feel like home is where I guess for me, where I look at it, home is where I am and I can have.

Mm hmm. Love that.

great memories of where I've been and et cetera. But to me, as long as family are with me and I'm, that's my home. I've got a quick ability to adapt in that moment. But for me, when I've gone back and I've gone back to the environment, it just looks so small. And it's not because it's small, it's just that I've grown and I've outgrown my perception of what that represented to me. That's how I look at it.

Hmm Yeah, and that same thing, like that's what I felt when I went back to Toronto was like, it's no longer home. And it's really kind of weird for me to say, I'm going home. People ask me like, are you going home? Like, no, actually, like I live in Portugal. Like my home is here, like right here where I'm at in Portugal. And, and, and some people, and I see, I hear both sides of the story and you and I are very similar in that manner. His home is where we're currently at, you know, is where our family's at and where we feel most kind of grounded. Right. And, and some people feel grounded back from where they came from.

Mmm. Yep.

And there's nothing wrong with that either. I just, I'm just saying for me, that's the realization I had. It was that I don't really have, like the home is established where I am, but I don't really have a home base to go back to because, you know, Canada was a long time ago. For me, I lived in Canada for 23 years of my life. I lived four years in Hong Kong and I lived 20 years in Australia. I lived just as much time in Australia almost as in Canada. So like really, you know, where...

Yep.

is actually home for me. And that's really, it really hit me hard in terms of the comfort level and the changes. And it made me realize, I'm like, yeah, that life was a totally, it was a slight moment of where it could have been and where it is now. And you're right about the perspective. Cause I remember going back to Hong Kong once. I think it was probably 20 years later, actually. I had a stopover in Hong Kong and had a day stopover heading back to Australia. And so I decided to go venture it by myself. And I went and found where I used to live in an apartment, which was huge when I was eight years old. It was massive. And I found it. I looked at them like, this can't be it because it's a squash building. I don't remember living in a small apartment building and it was tiny. And that's the same thing. Like at that ping pong table across the road was, didn't look that big anymore and the area looks really squashed. And it was like, okay, maybe I got taller, but still, everything is weird.

Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. And you know what I think it is too, it's like to people who are moving to Hong Kong, they'd go, this is a phenomenon. Is it so that I think it's because they as a person are expanding and they're expanding into their environment. And I think what I was coming up for me when you were talking about that was the version of you or I back in those places has expanded so much in our current world. That that's when we go back to it. We are references. This is how I used to be in this environment. Now, I had an interesting scenario because. I moved away from Melbourne and moved to Darwin and I moved to country New South Wales, but then we moved back to Melbourne. And when I visited, it never felt like home, but when we actually made the decision to consciously move back, it actually did again. But I think it's because of how I showed up. So, and I had, you know, there were elements of my, you know, say first journey, or first part of living in Melbourne that were totally different to my.

Interesting. Yeah. Hmm.

second part, I lived in different areas, et cetera, et cetera. And even when I visited the suburbs that I grew up in, I had that feeling, even though I was in the same city. So that's how I would relate it to is because I've grown as a person and moved on. I'm not bound by geography anymore. And anytime I was in an environment, it brought back thoughts and flashbacks of the person I used to be, I guess.

Yeah, it's so true. Like when you brought up this whole stretch thing and being stretched and seeing things from a different perspective, you're absolutely right. I think that's exactly how I felt. You know, the moments of being in that place and realizing that, yeah, things have changed for me and I see the world very differently. Like, again, I want to be repeat this. It's not as right or wrong. I just, I just feel that it was a different life and it's mostly because when we do bigger things. And this is like, this is an application, not for moving, right. But for doing bigger things. When you stretch yourself to take a chance and take a risk at something. whether it be business or a life partner or whatever it is, when you take that chance, you stretch, you learn, and you find things that you never saw before because you actually took that chance. And I think that that's what we're talking about here is the willingness to take that chance to really change how you see the world and the world will be different because you're willing to go into a different environment, Matrix, like taking the pill, right? It's like those are the things that you're... willing to do, but that takes a lot of courage. Most of us are geared towards being comfortable. I am, I know you are to some degree, but we are also wired to go, no, there's moments when we have to take that leap. And I love that picture behind you, when the person is taking that leap. It's like, that is that thing. Like there's moments when you just go, it's enough. Like I've come to the edge and you're gonna have to jump off now. And because there's no more room to move on. And I felt like, I think that's where we were. just over a year ago, it was like we come to the edge of this, of where we were in Australia, and we decided to take that leap because there was something on the other side. But we had to trust that there's something there on the other side to catch us. And I think that's really important.

Yeah, you know, today I've had two really interesting interactions. I was interviewed on a podcast by a mutual colleague and friend of ours. And then later on today, I got to meet for lunch a friend of mine who is traveling through. I've taken up some of your unofficial ambassadorial roles in Europe as well, too, Lawrence. I'm holding up Spain, who won the women's... World Cup final, um, kind of torn about that. My loyalties there. I felt like I was being disloyal Australia, Australia. Totally a hand on heart. It was, and we were the celebrations in Spain were like out of this world. All right. So, but, uh, I'm taking on ambassador, ambassadorial roles. That's what I was after. And caught it, caught up with someone who's visit. And I've got to ask the same question was, what did it take to do what you did? And.

Where's your loyalty lie? I gotta ask that question. It's like, come on. Oh, I can imagine.

does Europe or Spain feel like home now? And it was kind of intersecting back into our thoughts. And the circling back is exactly what you just said is, I am wherever I say this is my home, I can have fond memories of anywhere I've lived, but I have an ability to let go of that because right now I'm here and I'm here for as long as I'm here. And I don't have, I didn't come to Europe. for a timeframe. I didn't come in and say I'm going to be here for two years, five years. I don't know. And that's how life works for me, I think, in terms of I'm embracing it. Any decision I make, I make with as much certainty and confidence as I can, but I don't know what's on the other end of that. And I'm going to make a step and go, okay, well, in three months, you've got to change. You've got to deviate left or right. I'm okay with that. But I don't know what all the steps are. And I think that both excites and terrifies people at the same time.

Hmm. Yeah, I had the same experience today of all days, right, where someone just asked me, literally a friend of mine who's Portuguese who said, you know, how long are you actually here for? And I was actually, it's really interesting because I've never been asked that question. I was kind of taken back and mostly because it has the underlying assumption that this is temporary. And I find that really weird because to me, it's not temporary, but I guess a lot of people do make these leads, but it's conditional.

I get that all the time. Yeah.

I'll be here for a year and we'll see how it goes. We'll come here for a couple of years and we'll see how it goes. And I get that framework, because most of us, you know, that will do that. But you and I, we really attack this a little differently, right? We kind of burn the boats. Right? So, you know, we sold up everything and we, you know, literally sold up our houses and our, you know, our furnitures and got rid of a whole bunch of stuff and just moved. There was no looking back. I mean, at the end of the day, we still have our passports. We can always go back, but we don't have anything to go back. Like they won't have a house.

Yep. Thank you very much. You know what, the way I want to look at it is if I go forward, my, if I was going to ever move back to Australia, it'll be my move forward to Australia, not to move back. Because to me, it has to come from an empowered position, you know, rather than I'm regressing. I just, maybe it's a little play on things, but I feel like I'm in control.

Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes. That's interesting. That's exactly how I see it. It's a forward move, not a backwards move because I'm not retreating. There's no retreating. It just so happens that it just falls back into like, that was the next phase. If I ever go back to Australia, or if I ever go back to Canada, which I don't think I will, but let's just say we do, or I do, sorry, it will be because it's the opportunity for me to move forward, to grow, whatever is moving in that direction, not because I'm going back to, because I'm like, oh, I have my little adventure now. I find that really interesting statement where that person questioned me today. I was like, wow.

Hmm. Yep.

I was quite taken. Like, yeah, no, I'm planning to be here for many years, at least till the kids are out of high school for six, seven years. And that really kind of changed. And he was, I think he was just kind of shocked. I'm like, oh, okay, really? I'm like, okay, well, then his tune kind of changed a little bit. And I think that's because I think a lot of foreigners that do come here, a lot of expats do come here, it's a temporary move. And I think we, you and I have both that discussion before where temporary moves, when you're like one foot in and one foot out, you'd never fully commit. So you never really...

Yeah. Yeah.

embrace the challenges that it comes with when you have to go all in on something. I think we did that on an episode called All In. So

Yeah. You know, like when I first moved from Melbourne, I flew and lived in Darwin for two years. Now I didn't anticipate that I'd be there for two years. I went there with the view of I'm all in and it was it was timely that it was time to move on. And then when we moved to a place called Dubbo, which is 500 kilometres west of Sydney and lived there for six years, we didn't go there going we're going to stay here for six years. We just knew that the time was right. to move on to the next stage and level. So it's not predetermined for me in terms of how long, when, et cetera. It's purely a case of we've taken up opportunities when they've presented themselves and I've surrendered to the fact that that's out of my control. But what's in my control is whether to choose to go left or right when I can.

Well, you know, this, we've been talking a lot about moving and from location and homes to homes, but you know, this applies directly into, like I said, business relationships and personal development. So what is it that holds people back to go all in? Like you and I obviously have the shared mindset around things when we take a leap that we go all in, but what is it about people that stops them from going on?

Yeah. Look, that's a great question. And I think I've got a couple of things. Number one is people don't want the idea. It's kind of like, how do I hold on to what I have and also move forward? And it's, as you said, the one about the picture behind me is you get to a point where you sometimes go, if I am trying to hold on to the past and also get to the future, I'm not actually either in one or the other. So to me, it's the fear of... moving forward to something and it potentially is worse than they currently are at. And that's a big one that I find shows up a lot for people. It's what will happen if, what if I can't, what will happen if it doesn't work out and I've got to come back? How will I, what narrative will I create around that? What will other people create narrative? They're kind of things that I've seen that show up quite a bit for people that stop them from taking those leaps.

Hmm. Yeah. I, you know, I'm just like, I mean, I asked that question because I generally was curious. I think that, you know, when you were talking, I feel like the fear of losing what you already have outweighs the gain of what's on the other side of the unknown. And, you know, that if you look at all the

Yeah. Yep.

Hero journey arcs of anything that we actually love in movies and storytelling. I think that's why it hits home so well with those story arcs, because we're living vicariously through those characters. Because every one of those characters of all, at least the big ones, all have to risk it all at one point or another, the climax, to kind of gain that, you know, yes, they gotta gain that to become the person they need to be in. And...

You've got to get... Sorry, go on.

The thing that it's really hard, it's the death of who you used to be. And that's the hard part, right? Are you willing to let your old version of yourself die? That's hard, man. Like, you know, cause that's the person you live with for long, all your life up to this point. And you got to sacrifice, but most people are willing to sacrifice, especially when you get older, I find. The older you get, the less risky you would take, the rest of the risk you take, simply for that fact.

Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep.

You don't want to let that old identity die.

Yeah. And that's exactly what I spoke about with one of the people today was, dude, I'm unrecognizable from who I was a year ago. And he says, what do you mean? You looked at this. I go, that's not the point. It's like I have had so much expansion. I got asked a very interesting question today, which really, the question was, what was the easiest thing about the move? And what was the hardest thing about the move? Right. Great question. Well, when you think about it,

Huh, okay, yeah.

So I looked at this and went, okay, the easiest thing that really surprised me was how easy the process was once I decided to go all in. I had no attachments to things like, hey, I'd have articles, or I'd have magazines that I'd really loved and stored over years to suddenly go, okay, see ya, bye bye. And they're gone. And like things that up until that point were really important or what I perceived was important, cars, whatever, I could just let go really easily.

Yeah.

I had this beautiful old antique Mercedes that I was going to have redone. And I loved it. It was in my garage and I was like, okay, bye. See you later. And so I held onto it for 15 years with the view of doing that. Right. So I could let go of stuff really easy. The hardest part interestingly was the introspective journey of the child within that I had to relive, um, being the migrant, you know, and, you know, what I realized going into living in Australia, I overcompensated for those.

Hmm.

fears, doubts, uncertainty in self and push myself harder, et cetera, et cetera, to fit in, to succeed, whatever it was. The hardest part was coming here and actually sitting in that and expanding on that and cycling through that. So it really surprised me what it was. And it had nothing to do with the fears that other people have mentioned or I mentioned earlier on. It was my own journey of basically introspection, but I could just so easy to let go of possessions so much easier than I thought I would.

Hmm. Well, there's the crux, right? You just said it, it's beautiful and repeated, is that you felt the easiest part was letting go once you committed. And that's the key thing. And I think if anybody who's, you know, who are kind of one foot in, one foot out, on the fence around a particular decision, it's really difficult. It's hard mostly because you aren't committed to either camp. And so therefore when you're sitting on the fence, you're definitely committing to both sides and you're always teetering.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

But once you make that decision, all of a sudden you're absolutely right. Everything falls into place because all those things that you thought was hard are no longer hard because the only reason why it was hard was because you were still sitting on the fence on this side trying, and that, the feeling when you're in that ego or that identity was holding you back from letting go where this person was ready to let go. But until you make that decision on which fence you wanna jump on, it's gonna hold both stories at the same time.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And that's really difficult. And yeah, so the word is commitment. You have to commit, you gotta go all in. And I see this a lot with the expats who are like, oh, I'm not sure. It's because they still got a home, back home, or wherever they are, from where they are, and they're like, yeah, I'm not sure. And they're comparing the two. When you're comparing the two, every comparison is gonna have some benefits. Other consequences of living in here, yeah, absolutely. We can talk all about that, you know? But there's also consequences back to where you came from too. And it's like, it's where do you want your life to grow towards?

I remember years ago, a definition of providence being that the moment you are fully committed to something, things move, things happen. It's like the life and the universe conspires to help you manifest that and bring that about. And that's so true. I've actually realized that if there was indecision, things were not clear. I was second guessing elements. But at the moment I went, whether this works out or not, I don't know, but I'm all in. I'm clear. I'm decisive. This is direction.

Hmm. Yep.

suddenly the willing characters in life showed up to help me move towards that direction. It's absolutely fascinating. So that was a big distinction, the thing that I like.

Well, it's a commitment. It's a, I think this is the quote, until one is committed, there is hesitancy. The chance to draw back always ineffectiveness considering all facts, all acts of initiative and creation. There's only one element, truth, the ignorance with which kills countless ideas and splendid plans that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves to, uh, I don't even want to pronounce it's a German thought. It's a German philosopher.

That's the one. Providence, yes. Yeah. What you said, Lawrence, what you said.

Uh, I literally just Googled that and, uh, yeah, it's both Yohan Wolfgang von Go-Goth-Gota? Go-ta? Sorry for the pronunciation, but I know that quote very well.

Gult is a Gult. Yeah. Gulta. Yeah. No, but that's it's, but so private and it's so true, you know, that was so in answer to those questions, it was yes, going all in whatever that is to people. But it was like, I think being decisive and saying we've talked about this before and how important that is not only in what we've done, but if people can take that example into their own world and their set of circumstances, the moment you're decisive about which direction you're going to go, it's amazing how things get clearer and you go, okay, that's the direction I'm going to go. Irrespective of how many bumps and obstacles come along the way, that's still the path for me. And that was, it was a recurring discussion in both the podcast recording and a discussion I had with someone at lunchtime today who contemplated the same moves, but just needed, I guess, some clarity or some social proof of what it's like to venture out on a journey of discovery into the unknown.

Yeah, they need a bit of confidence booster that this is not a wrong choice. And the more they collect, the more they start to realize that it's okay. But at the end of the day, when you make a move like that, you still have to go on your own journey. You still got to realize that it's not all rainbows and sunshine on the other side. You know, I didn't get into a house until for a year later, you know, your dog didn't arrive, you know, like both of our dogs, it took years, oh sorry, months to kind of arrive.

Yep. months and months.

you know, language barriers, there's like, there's a whole bunch of stuff. But the reality is that you can't get caught up in that, right? You gotta catch up on the commitment that you made. And it's such an important element. But I attribute this to, I see this a lot in clients and I'm sure you'll agree with me, the clients that do the hack are able to create the most success, although usually the ones who are able to execute new ideas when they're committed to the idea.

Yeah. Now.

or committed to the change. The ones that don't do as well, or never executed properly is usually the goal, they like the idea, but they aren't really fully committed to the idea. And they're holding themselves back. So they never fully execute even they do all the work and actions as required for the new idea, but they never actually fully embrace it because they don't want to change that much yet because they're afraid to let go of the whatever going on.

Yep. Yeah.

whatever the current circumstances are. Yet they want the change from the current circumstances, but they're also afraid to let go of the comfort of the circumstances even though they want the change.

Yeah. And I look at it as the power of full engagement. You know, I'm fully engaged in this idea, movement, concept, whatever it is. And the set of circumstances and the thoughts are going to be different. If you're going through the motions because you like the idea, then you're going to bring a different level of energy and intensity towards it. If you're like fully invested in it and at the deepest core level, you're going to do whatever it takes to make sure that it works. And you're not going to. give up quote unquote at the first sign of difficulty or challenge or because you go, look, this is not something that I'm now doing. This is who I am. So it's an identity process as well of being part of that. So that's what I took out of that, too. But Lawrence, I had I had a question because in a month I'm revisiting my dad's village in Greece. I'm having a reunion. I've been there for 40 odd years. So you I was really

Hmm.

intrigued when you'd visited back home, at quote unquote home in Canada and revisited our home. So what do you think would have happened had you stayed?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think I still would have created some success in my life, but I think the one thing I know that I wouldn't have had is the expansion of the world that I see, how I see the world now. And I would be very restricted to a very small perception of the world. And yes, I think one is, number one is the observation, like the observation of how I see the world view. I think that would have been big change for me. I think mostly because I wouldn't, I would, if I stayed there, all I would have known was Toronto, it would have known Canada and all the other places I've seen around the world would have been just been a holiday destination as a vacation to go visit. Whereas now I see, because I lived in, you know, different cultures now, I see that I can s- because I'm living in it. I think you and I both agree when you, there's a difference between visiting a city versus living in a city. And, you know, where you would visit isn't where you would actually live typically. You know, like if I went to Toronto, I'm not, you know, where I live, you're not gonna go and visit there. Like, I mean, it's part of Toronto, it's still Toronto, but like, there's nothing there to go and visit. It's just suburb, right? And it's not some place where most people go to, hardly. And so,

Yeah.

I think that's so that one way to say, you know, I'm trying to really think through this question here. I think the second thing for me, I don't think I would have grown as much to be honest with you. I think the circle of people that I hold dear to my heart now, the friends that I have around the world, I don't think that would have happened. You know, I think there would have been acquaintances and maybe I'm selling myself short there, but I really do feel that I have a world.

Mmm, yep.

of friends that are surrounded, like I'm surrounded by, I can call up, you know, in every continent that I could really kind of call up and they'll have my back. And I don't think I would have had that. I think my circle would have been very, very small. Not that that's a bad thing or a good thing. I think my life experience in the world, like in terms of my experiences, I don't know. I guess, you know, one thing I was gonna say, like I don't know if my experience would have been as joyful, but then again, would I know? I wouldn't know what I wouldn't know, so I wouldn't know any difference.

You wouldn't know any different. Yeah, exactly. So I know it's a tricky question to answer because it's like you're asking someone, you went this way, what would happen? And it's not the what ifs, but it was really a case of, so what I'm hearing is through the process of change and gradually stepping up and trying different things, it opened up a part of you or a part of your world that you would not normally have necessarily investigated had you not gone down this path. Yes, you could have been. successful and use the skills and talents and tools you had in an environment. But what I'm hearing is that it would have been a part of your value structure or the expression of your values. You wouldn't have actually fulfilled. So you may have had success, but not fulfillment. If you weren't nurturing that part of self, that's, that's what I am. I guess I'm taking an understanding out of that.

Absolutely. You know, I find. If I think about this now, I think one of the most critical elements of, you know, catching up with friends as well, like some friends that are back in Toronto, and this is no offense to any of my friends who might be listening, but I just wanna be very clear on that. But one of the things I realized, you know, when I went back, it's like, it really reminded me, you know, when people ask you, like, what's the biggest decision you ever made? Like, what is the most, like, greatest decision you ever made that would, you know, kind of change your life? And I would say the time that I left. Canada, I want to went to Australia, like no doubt hands down. And the reason why is because like, I know what that life would have been so different. And you know, a lot of my friends are still in the same neighborhood as they grew up. Probably within a 10, 15 kilometer radius, maybe a little bit more, but they're still in the same area. Nothing wrong with that, but that's not how I would have lived it. It's not how I would have wanted to. And you know, I came back from the trip.

Yep. Mm. Yep. Yep. Hmm.

from Canada, thinking back, and I talked to my wife about this. I never say never, but however, I don't know if I'm ever going to go back to Canada. Like, I'll visit, but I'm not going back to Canada to live. Nothing that pulls me there. Like, nothing attracts me there. You know, there's some great parts. I have family there, but it's not where my heart is pulling me at the moment. Now, it could change my mind 10, 20 years from now, but like I said, right now, it feels like, no, I'm, it was a part of my life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Yep.

was God, I'm grateful for it, but it's not where the future lies for me. And the hardest thing actually, to be honest with you, is I'll say this is kind of weird, but my father bought a family plot and he bought seven of them, like side by side. I got to visit it because my mom's buried there now and there's a tombstone there.

Mmm.

And you know, my dad's on it. My mom's obvious. My dad's still alive, but he's obviously on it. And, and he always said like, you know, there's always space for you here. It's a double decker one too. So there's plenty of spaces and I get it. I get why he bought it. And so, cause we were going to all be together and stuff. My brother's on it. He's alive, but he's on it. But my name's not on it. It was a weird man. It's weird to see a family's tombstone that has my mom and my dad and my brother, but I'm not on it.

Yeah, yeah. Mmm, wow. Wow.

My dad asked me, I remember he did ask me, and I'm like, I'm just not sure. And it really posed the question like, I can't, it's not really for me where I get buried because this will be for whoever survives me, right? You know, whether that be Karen or my kids, I don't know where they're going to be. And I'm like, you know, I remember telling my dad, I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't commit to that. Like, you know, nor would I, whatever, because it's not my decision. Because I'm gone, why does it matter? Right? It's like.

Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, yep, yep.

So it should matter more to the people who are going to be alive. And I'm like, I'm not making that decision. And, but seeing it though, dude.

Yeah, wow, yeah, I get that. I get that.

And it felt weird. I felt like I was a prodigal son, you know, coming back in a way. It's weird to see your family plot and I'm not on it. Not that I felt like I wasn't part of the family, but isn't it kind of weird for someone like you maybe go visit and like, oh, this is the Tanfana, like his name's not on it. I think it's weird. I think my aunts and uncles, my cousins, like, those would be so weird. Like, I wonder what they're thinking. No one ever asked me, but I wonder, I always kind of, what did my cousins think when they go, why isn't Lawrence on there? Does he not want to be part of the family? Is it the dark sheep? Like, it's those type of thoughts.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was going to say, so you're the dark sheep of the family. Cause I know I have been so, uh, cause I was always the one who was doing things that nobody else was doing. I was always the one who was like, everybody's going this way. And I'd be the kid who's trying different things that rebellious kid or G that's not so no, but, but yeah, but that's, that's really interesting. So, so here's what, what I was thinking about in going to my dad's village because

that's the weird part I wasn't I was the good kid

you know when they say from little things, big things grow. And I think I'm gonna get to the point. So I'm gonna retrace, I'm actually gonna stay in the home that my dad grew up in. And it's been in the family for like 200 years or something like that, 250 years. My great, great grandfather helped build it through stone. So it's a beautiful old village home. So I'm actually, I think I'm staying in the room that my dad and his two brothers or something grew up in.

Wow. Amazing

So it is all of that. I'm gonna walk along the cobblestone streets that my dad walked along. And I'm gonna basically touch the house and the stables that my dad built with my grandfather. And I get really emotional about that. But what I'm gonna, I guess, get really connected with is the vision of the guy who sat on an island. It's actually the island of Les Vos, which is kind of...

Cheers.

in the middle of the Aegean there, it's kind of close to Turkey, between Greece and Turkey. So there's not much else there. And back in that time, I envisaged my dad sitting on the edge of the island looking out, going, what world is out there? What world is out there and what possibilities are out there? And for me to, this is the prodigal son or prodigal son moment, is to come back and go, hey, I've gone out there, I've explored, I've seen the world. I'm grateful for all of that.

Mmm.

that if I'd stayed on that island, I would have been the son of a farmer, of a goat herder. And nothing wrong with that, because I love my family, extended family as well, but there's a whole world of discovery that I wouldn't have known had my dad not being bold and daring enough to say, I'm actually gonna explore beyond these shores for the chance of a bit of luck. So to me, I know it's perhaps dramatic in there.

Hmm. Yep.

But to actually relive that and go back to the genesis of my family story is really, I'm gonna learn more about myself again, I think. And that's why I was curious about what you found about yourself, et cetera, et cetera, in revisiting Canada after so long.

Yeah. It's a mindset that I think has shifted. And the more you explore, the more you test your boundaries of who you are, you start to see the world in a different way. And like you mentioned about the shift and also the stretch, you can't rebound backwards and it's very difficult to, and I think that's why when you're exposed to the other side of things, it's so challenging to kind of go live back the old life that you have. But you have to be willing to commit to go the other side. I'll tell you a story, I won't name any names, but it was sort of a... a person who we had a conversation with in Canada, and we were chatting over dinner, and questions were asked constantly about Australia. And I didn't know him very well, but it was a question of like, oh, how was living in Australia? And da da, and all these things. And then he started asking me about Portugal. And then at the end, after a couple of hours, he apologized. And I'm like, well, you don't need to apologize, because I apologize for asking all these questions, because I just, I want, I just, it's just so fascinating to me. And I'm like, okay, cool, man. Like I'm happy to answer any questions. And he goes, I just like, I feel like I'm living vicariously through your adventures. I'm like, that's cool. Like, great, because, but you can go for the adventure too, right? Like I'm like, and, and he goes, I had a chance once at 18 to go to Australia. I had a chance and I didn't take it. But he said it in a way was like, he's never gonna have that chance again. Our age, just slightly younger, yeah.

Yeah. Wow, yeah. How old? How old? Really? At the peak of his... Yeah. Like, there's a whole world, yeah.

40s, mid 40s. I'm like, dude. But I couldn't, so, and this is not anything against him. But it really fascinated my brain because I was like, wow, where does that mindset come from? What makes you think that this in chances was done 30 years ago? How do you, what came to that fruition, to think that way? That's how I'm thinking, what made you think that?

Mmm. Yeah.

And this is what I mean, like the shift. I'm not like, this is not about being better or not, but it's like the shift that happens when you start seeing what's out there, you realize like what's possible. And, you know, what I hope that we're talking about these stories as we're going through our journey, it's the inspiration to go give something a go. We're not saying move countries. That's not what we're saying. We're just using that as an example as a backdrop, but it could be like going after that girl that you've been like having a crush on, that you just haven't willing to like.

Hmm. Yeah.

take a chance on because you're just so afraid, you know, what's the rejection or maybe like starting that business that you've always wanted to but your parents have never, you know, just never agreed, you know, or taking a chance on like studying something that you've always wanted to but you've never had the guts to because you know, you have to pay the bills or whatever.

And it's too late. And that's why I asked you about the age because I remember when we were studying chiropractic, there was a guy who was a vet, who finished a career as a vet, who retired at 65 and then went to chiropractic school to actually study chiropractic. So he would have been 70. And to me that was like, and I hear so many times, I used to have a client who was in her 80s who got her PhD, you know, studied. studying for a PhD in the 80s. And it's like, I guess that as a reference shows that it's not static. It's a state of mind and it doesn't have to be a geographic graph, graphical shift, it could be a shift in identity or learn a new language or learn a new musical instrument or whatever. Start a course. It's like, you're not stuck in cryogenics. There's an opportunity to expand and grow. If you're prepared to explore and give yourself permission to be lousy at it at the start. And just started and get that moving. And I think that that's what I've really embraced. I've been comfortable in, I guess, which is the spirit of our podcast is like the art of imperfection. It's like, you're going to do it. You're going to suck straight away, but that's okay. If you're happy and fulfilled and you're comfortable in the process, then over a time, the black belt is really a white belt that never gave up. And it's exactly the same in terms of.

Mmm.

It's in the same in practice, it's in learning, it's a musical instrument, and it's in all of those, irrespective of what age or time you start.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's the, what we got to also realize that what we're hoping for, when we make a decision or commit to something is that we're going to get all the bonus stuff that we hope to get the dreams that, you know, moving the other side, but that's not what I find is actually not the biggest reward. The biggest reward is who I actually become. I guess it, you know what I mean? Like, you know,

Mmm. percent.

It's, yeah, all the other things are coming. Yeah, sure, if I do this, I'll get all the stuff. But it's always been, the reward's always been like me. Like that's been the greatest gift. And I always say to people, I was like, you know, when you go after a goal and you actually accomplish it, I guarantee you the goal, the success of the goal, lasts for a moment. But who you become, that lasts a lifetime. No one can take that away. That goal?

Yeah.

Yeah, that feeling, someone can take it away because now you have a different goal. But that feeling of that change of who you become because you let go of the other person and you come out on the other side, a different person, no one can change that. Yeah, and that, like that person can do big things. And then when that person does bigger things and all of a sudden that newer version of yourself is gonna be, they're gonna do greater things. And that's how we go through life. We are constantly committing to saying things and that we...

Hmm. Yep.

the change that we have, the evolution of who we are, because we're all gonna die. That's the thing, right? That's the key element we gotta remember. We're all gonna die and no one's gonna remember, really. And so therefore it's like, what kind of, I kind of always say, like what kind of experience you wanna actually have in this life. I mean, that's the choice that we all have. And that's the thing we should be thinking about.

Yeah. And I think for me, I, when I, when I reflect on Australia, I spoke to my brother-in-law today. And really, other than, you know, some great friends that I have, direct family, it's really him and his family. You know, my mum and dad have passed away, my kids are overseas. So I don't have the direct family connection back to Australia. So to me, that's why home will really be where we are. And so our kids were here a short time ago in Spain. We're catching up again at Christmas time in New York. I think we've made a commitment to catch up and have these special moments to honor that part. And to me, I think that that's where, and home will be New York for as long as I am when I'm visiting them, but I have an ability to actually go, okay, here's where I'm at. And I get very, not territorial about it, I go, hey, this is my home. This is my home. Okay, until it's not, and I can adapt. It could be a tent. I couldn't care. But...

Yeah.

It's, I guess that the gift in that is that I, I don't lament the loss of an environment. I may, I may sometimes I looked at the identity I had to let go of, but I've never regretted places that I've lived or left longingly in looking at them in the rear view mirror because I'm very forward focused and going, this is what I really, this is what's really important. So I think that's helped me adapt even when things were difficult.

Forward focus, yeah. I think it's definitely easier for people who are forward focused and backward focused. And there's no right, good or bad about these. It's just more that it's definitely a lot easier. But I will say this, when you were talking there, I will say that I want to congratulate you and honor you actually for being the father that you are and Bettina being the mother that she is. And the reason why I'm saying this is because I don't, I realize now as we're talking,

Hmm.

how important my parents were in this journey that I've gone through my life. Meaning like, if I was very fortunate to have parents that were okay to let me go. They never put guilt on me to come back. They never put guilt on me for to keep me where they were to keep me close. And that's why I want to be, because now I recognize what that's what exactly what you have done. Like you're not going to your kids and going like, you need to be close to us. Like you're letting them fly. They have wings now that it's their job. And if it happens to be in the neighborhood, awesome. But if it's across the other side, it's like, you'll be sad, but you're okay with it. I think that like cutting that tether from your kids, man, like that is a brave thing to do. I'm not there yet, right? I'm not there yet.

Hmm.

But I, and I want to honor you that because I want to remind myself, because I know my daughter's listening to this. I want her to remind me at some point, if I ever do have a tether, with that, remember the episode on why we saw me cut, cut that tie. Uh, cut the cord. Yeah. And, but I think it's important. I think, you know, I think, because the reason why I thought back, I think back of all the, um, you know, some friends or people who, who say, you know, they can't go somewhere because, oh, it was because of someone else and.

Yeah, cut the cord then.

That's hard. I'm not saying that it's not easy. Like it's not an easy move, but I get it. I get how if you had that tether, that emotional tether that someone puts on you, a little bit of guilt and the expectation of that. Yeah, I can see how that could be very difficult to go, I'm gonna move across the other world because I wanna live my life. Yeah, and so I really thought as I walked through that, I'm like, yeah, thank you, dad, thank you, mom for being such an inspirational. you know, for being there for me to be, allow me to, you know, let me fly my wings. But I think it also helped that they did that. You know, my dad left India family to go to Canada. My mom left family from Hong Kong to study in UK and then moved to Canada. Like, yeah. So they kind of knew that experience. So they're just passed it on to me and I hope that I would do the same and pass it on to my kids, you know? So like, that's the word, it starts, but someone had to start that, right? Someone had to go.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

no more court, I don't care, I'm moving forward. And that's the hard part. Those are the hard decisions to make if you're stuck in that position. But it's what I guess I'm saying is that if you do that, if you have the courage to be able to cut the cord, despite the emotional guilt and all that stuff, to do whatever, just imagine not the freedom that you have for yourself, but it's the freedom that you're gonna pass on to the next generation and the generation after that, because that's how I'm experiencing it.

Mmm. Yep. Yeah, it is. And look, first of all, thank you for your kind words. I was really touched by that. I'm really grateful to hear it. And when I just allow them to just sink in and drop in, I really appreciate that. And I take that on in the spirit in which it's shared. It's interesting because in our conversations over the friend of mine, they've got a young child and he would have been around the same age as our son when there's an independent spirit. And they said, how do you manage that? And I said, well, you know, our biggest journey as adults, as parents, were to ring fence this kid to allow his spirit and the essence of this kid to come through not polluted or damaged or tarred or dinted by what society had expectations on him about how he should be. We wanted him to be congruent and true to the beat of his own drum. And so that took a lot of holding the line to allow that to happen, very much like nurturing a plant to grow without trying to dig it up to see how it's progressing. And so we did that. And always along the way, like you just said, I don't like my kids being away as far as they are. And there were times, particularly during lockdowns where, you know, if something had happened, I was torn. It was like, I can't get to them. And it's like a parent's worst fear that you can't get to

Ha ha ha.

be with your kids. And as hard as it has been, and every time that they're away, I weep like a baby, because I'm okay with that, but I knew that the love of watching them shine was much greater than the need for me to have them close by. And it was more loving and liberating to watch them fly and take on life on their own terms, to be fulfilled and be happy, because they're expressing life, than my need to have them close by. And so that's what that is. It's, it's, I don't think it's ever easy. You get easier. You get more comfortable as time goes on, I should say. But that first, that first instance, man, you know, I can understand how tough it was for your mom and dad as well. And as it would have been for mine when they, when they did that as well. And particularly in those days, there was no internet, there was no even phone, phone conversations, FaceTime, forget about that. What's that? You know, it was like.

FaceTime and-

If you were lucky, letters every so often and phone calls at like something like $80 a minute or something. So that was much harder. So I get it. And you touch on a very good topic about the connection and the courage to create change, but also be the person who's left behind when the kids fly from the coop. It's another opportunity to grow as a human, that's for sure.

Yeah. And the key element is the generational impact that we can have when we make these big commitments. And, you know, I see my nephews and nieces and, you know, and they met my kids for the very first time. So the cousins met for the very first time. And it's really interesting. Obviously, they grew up in two different environments. And so, yeah, you can definitely see, like, if you ask the question of how...

Yep. Mmm, nice.

If I stayed in Toronto, what would that look like? I'm like, I can kind of guess of what the next generation could've looked like. And like I said, I'm trying not, there's no judgment. I just know that, you know, it would have been different than the current life that they have. And so it's just different, the changes. And I think the takeaway I hope that everybody makes is like, there's no judgment on whether you should or shouldn't do, because everybody's in different circumstances. And we are... We are made decisions based on our circumstances at the time where we are. We're not asking you to move or do any things. I really hope that the listeners here, you guys are watching this or listening to this, is taking our experience, taking our journey and our decisions, and I hope it inspires you to make certain decisions that you've been holding off on and inspire you to commit to decisions that you've been holding off on. Because life is limited.

Yeah.

And that's all we're really trying to do. We're trying to share with you the good and the bad of making those decisions and then allowing you to still execute. We can only be here, be hold of space for you to kind of do that. But at the end of the day, you have to pull the trigger. It's not always gonna be rainbows and sunshines, you know, but the person you're gonna be, man, you're not gonna recognize them like Jim said.

Yep. Yeah. And I think probably the last thing I'll say with this, and we can probably wrap up there, Lawrence, is really, like you said, it's not about trying to convince people to migrate to Spain or to Portugal. You know, it's not about that. It's not about throwing in something to do something different for the sake of it. You know, I think we are living congruently with what's important to us. And I think that that's that if that's the takeaway message people have, it's like.

Hmm.

live congruent with what's true to you, be authentic about it, do it your way, whatever that looks like. And we're just sharing our example and story, not too much to say, look at what we've done as a gold standard, but rather to go, here's what a life looks like when you live on your terms, whatever that looks like, if you can coordinate it. And we've basically shown that the behind the scenes or under the bonnet, I should say, of what that looks like for us. and what we've learned in the process, hoping that people will take the learnings and apply it to their life as well. That's really what my intention is, and I'm sure we've spoken about that before for people as well too.

Well, if you listen to the podcast all the way through to this one, I hope that you got a lot out of it because the juice is near the end here and I loved it and I really appreciate you guys listening to this and please share this with people who you know that need to need to listen to this as well to make a shift in their life. This is Jim and I on the WabiSabi podcast. We'll see you on the next episode.