When We Get In Our Own Way

So a funny thing happened there, Jim. I was on a call with someone and it was really an interesting call. And the reason why it was interesting was because we were having this discussion. And this person, and I'm sure you've experienced as a coach, we've experienced this many times where certain people are just, they come into the call not really fully engaged. We see this as patience as well. I'm sure you've had patience when we were chiropractors when they come in and then you go.

Yeah.

you really didn't choose to be here. Your wife sent you here, didn't she? So it was like, it was one of those clients that kind of was on the call. And I could just tell right away, there was the instant resistance, and basically came down to like, they knew everything and there was no more improvement to be made. And I'm like, well, I don't know where I can help you when you are closed. When you already have certain beliefs about what success is, what success to you is, and you're not really striving for anything, like I don't know where I can step in to help you. And I think that the...

Yeah. Hmm.

And so it's nothing to do with that particular person, but it was actually got me more reflective. I'm going, when have I been in that position where I had limiting like our cognitive bias or like the bias within certain judgment of people, places or things, and then made my behavior or decisions I made that may not have actually served me well. And I remember this,

Right, okay. Yep.

I'll say the story and then we can kind of go from there. I remember when I first came out of chiropractic college from Canada, you know, like listen, I thought I was pretty damn good. You know, so, and you know, this is not an egotistical thing. Like I worked hard to be a great adjuster. I worked extremely hard through my four or five years there and I worked on my skills and I, you know, I thought I was... God was one of the best adjusters in my class. You know, I won't be afraid to say that. And when I came out, and you know, when you go into the public, you know, you're adjusting your friends and stuff when you're in school, you're like, yeah, you know, I know this stuff. I got this down pat. Yeah, principals, everything, I got this down pat, right? And then when you, I still remember my first day in practice, it was July 1st. I remember it was Canada's day. You know, obviously not in Australia, I was in Australia. First day, it was also the first day of the financial year in Australia. So I clearly remember that date.

Yeah. Nothing's on the line, nothing's on the line, right? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

And here I am adjusting real people now. And then I realized really quickly, it's like real people don't move like hypermobile students for the last four years. And it hit me like a ton of brick. I'm like, oh, my skills I thought was up here really is down here and I have so much more to go. And it really hit me the hard in that first day. And I think that is one of those moments in my life recognizing going.

Yeah.

Now, you know, diddly squat, like you have so much to learn. You think you have it all at 27 years. No, you got such a lifelong lesson. And it basically brought me right back down to being an amateur again and have to start from scratch. So anyways, that's my sort of preamble to kind of start the conversation we have. When have you allowed your particular bias around a situation or maybe a client or someone else you've seen have made.

Yeah. Yeah.

poor decisions or least decisions or assumptions, right? Which my dad always says, assumption makes you an ass out of you and me. I'm sure that, you know, and it's like that assumption really created, you know, a process of not learning and not growing to the best potential of who we are. And I had to really unlearn a lot of that stuff. So anyways, Jim, pipe in here.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good context and frame up. But when you first started, I thought you were going to start telling a joke. And that's why it's like, it's like a funny thing happened to me on the way to whatever, you know, that's a lot of jokes stuff. But, you know, like I instantly thought of, you know, one of the impediments and blocks to that sometimes is ego, right. And, you know, I loved Top Gun, the movie, both the original and the most recent one. And there's always a line that says, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash. And sometimes that's a reality check that a lot of us have, you know, I'm going to share my first, it must've been the start of our careers. So for me, I, same thing, I graduated pretty much top of my class as well and won a whole lot of awards, dusting awards, everything like that. So I never forget, Bettina and I were practicing the same practice in, in Northern territory, in Darwin. First day I go in and I'm going to X-ray someone. And I'm just trying to get the X-ray machine to work and it's not working. I'm like, oh, there's something wrong with this, something wrong with this, something wrong with this. And I said, listen, can you excuse me? I have to go and get some assistance with this X-ray machine. It must be a technical issue. So I go call Bettina, she comes back. And Bettina realized very quickly I hadn't actually turned the machine on. And yeah, right. So everybody knew, Bettina knew that except me, right? So I'm the person who's in charge of directing and the responsible person who's...

That's what I thought.

advocating for health and had basic error number one, and I hadn't pressed the red button. And it wasn't one of these subtle things. You go in and you hit the button and there was this real loud ding that the lady there couldn't ignore. I couldn't ignore, the tentacles didn't ignore. And the tenant respectfully looks at me, smiles, and just starts walking off stage left, trying to preserve whatever. confidence that I had in that moment. And the lady, it was awesome. She turned around and said to me, gee, that's pretty embarrassing, huh? And I went, yeah, first day and all. But I said, you know what the worst part is? That's not even the worst part. She goes, how could it be worse? I said, well, that's actually my wife. And I'm never gonna hear the end of that. And so that was a real reality check as well, right? It's just to lighten the mood to say that, okay, a lot of the times you don't know what you don't know. And sometimes even when you show up, there's a big gap and deficiency between where you think you are and where the reality of who you are is. And that can be very humbling. You can look at that from a perspective of rejection, no, that's not true, and make whoever is giving you the feedback wrong. And gosh, that's definitely happened in our situation with. experience where we try to let someone know, hey, here's where you think you are, this is the reality of it. Or you can basically go through righteousness and judgment and go, no, that problem's with you. So a lot of how these things show up, reveal you to you and how you probably go out in other areas of life.

Yeah, you know what I would have said? I would have said, see that when the machine wasn't on, that's what's happening in your nervous system right now. See when that turned on, that's what we're gonna do with the adjustment. First day in practice though. Yeah.

Bingo. Yeah. Had I had the presence of mind, I was just trying, man, I was, I was sinking. I was sinking. I was like, but then I was just going, well, you either, you either go through logic or humor. I chose humor in that moment. But.

Yeah. Well, like the reason why I said that moment, like just that analogy. Well, I wouldn't have been able to say that in my first day or my first year or my second year. Like that would have taken that has taken me many years to even create and be able to think on the spot that quickly, you know, to be able to come up with an analogy on the spot. And this is just goes to show, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

We don't know what we don't know. And the problem, what we're trying to highlight is the problem is that we've all experienced, I guarantee everybody who's listening and watching this is we've all experienced moments where we think we know it all. But as soon as we do that, as soon as we think we know it all, you've already lost. And that is the major problem. And I think John Wooden said that once or something to that paraphrase of like, you sent me a quote on that. And John Wooden is like, he was never about, he actually had one quote, I won't.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know exact words, but John Wooden, great UCLA, 10 times championship coach, one of the greatest coaches in NCAA basketball. And he once said, he goes like, a loss is never a loss if you learn a lesson from it. It's only a loss if you don't learn anything from a loss. And that was sort of like that thing that kind of sticks in. And the problem is I think a lot of people, and I've done this many times, we can share dozens of stories around this, is where when I am in ego, when I think I know everything or I think I've got this, I don't allow, I'm actually energetically not open. I'm not energetically open to learning and that's a loss for me. And I've made many mistakes doing that and I didn't take that opportunity to kind of learn. And I see that in sometimes when, you know, in my kids as well sometimes when they're open to learning, man, they just, they're just so, as a teacher. Right? As someone who was teaching your child, it's so inviting to want to teach them more. But as soon as they are closed to learning, you just don't want to give it. They're like, all right, well, fine. If you think you know it all, you don't want to walk away. And I think that's the thing that we don't see, which is like, when we're closed, we're not only closed to ourselves and learning more, but we're actually turning away people who are willing to help. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. And spot on. I found that many times that I'm pretty sure you have as well too, that quite often people will seek us out and ask for assistance that may be having a particular issue and challenge and problem in their business or their practice or what, you know, specifically if it is car practice. But a lot of times that their personal problems in disguise, they're not that it's not a systemically just related to that segment of the practice because we there's some principles we always look at and that is how you do one thing is how you do all things. And so if you're approaching some of the blocks in your business, they may well be, like you said, that you're closed to learning. You're closed, you've got a fixed mindset, you're not humbled, you're not open, you're not receptive to what else it could be other than what you think and know it is. So quite often, you may have experienced that as well too, I'm pretty sure you have, someone will come in and thinking that they're working on one specific thing. You work on another block or some liver interference, which could be how they perceive the world or their base belief or their paradigms of what's possible and that changes everything. And they haven't done more, they've just expanded the capacity in their brain to allow these kind of things to happen.

I think it happens a lot more when we're younger, and I'm sure you would experience this, but I definitely experienced it when I was through my teenage years, and I'm sure everybody can relate to this. When you're a teenager, you and your parents are talking to you like, dad, mom, you don't know what you're talking about, right? I know what I'm talking about. And you know, and I'm going, I'm just about to go into that phase, you know, in the next few years, and I'm sure I'm going to get that. But I remember clearly when I went to university, and it wasn't probably until after university.

Yeah. Yep. Dead.

was when I started to realize, I'm like, oh my God, my parents were right, you know, all along. You just have to recognize like, they are just right, and I hate to admit this. And I think the younger we are, we just have this, and I think you gotta go through that phase. You gotta go through the phase like, to really go, I know what's right, and you gotta go through that challenge. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't, I'm just saying you should, but also recognize and be humble when you are wrong, or humble that.

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

maybe you didn't have everything right at the same time. But I think when you're stringent to be stuck on those facts that I have to be this way, it goes back to the identity thing. You know, like, I think, maybe we went to this conversation, I think this is really important. Identity is such a hard thing, right? Because most of us would have identified ourselves as whatever, and that could be identify yourself as a particular part of your, maybe a profession that you're in, maybe identify yourself as a good guy or a bad guy or the.

Thank you.

the naughty kid or the funny kid or even like as, in terms of your different types of friendships or whoever, you create these labels within ourselves and we believe it. But the thing is, is that it's really hard to let go or as we age, through the decades in your 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s, as you start to age, you start to realize like, I'm no longer that person. However,

Hmm.

some people hold on to that identity because they feel like they have to hold on to that identity. But in reality is like, if you just let go of that ego, you almost have to like release that identity. It's like, yeah, I did acknowledge first of all, that identity was who I was at that moment in time. But I don't have to be continually that same person and evolve and change. I think that is when I see the most growth in people.

Yeah.

is when they can let go of the old stories that they have, but not having to hold on to it. Do you see that too?

Yeah, 100%. And I know in my own case, Lawrence, it's approaching, it's a little bit over six months since we left Australian shores. I'm not that person anymore, by a long way. And nor are you. Even in our conversations, what we're talking about now, yeah, we would have probably had elements of that, but the conversations you and I had back in Australia were totally different to the ones we're having now. Why? Because we're different, right? And I think that's a big part of it.

Yeah.

I think the biggest impediment to that, as you said, is people's reluctance to let go of an identity that validates them. And there are, there are always references and I think Tony Robbins always talks about this, that one of the compelling human needs is to stay consistent with your identity of yourself. So if you see yourself, as you said, as a great person, whatever, you're going to look for experiences that confirm that and go, yeah, check, tick, that's me, that's me, that's me. What I've realized though sometimes, and there's another author called John Maxwell always says, sometimes it's what you give up to go up. And sometimes giving up is the attachment to that identity so that you need to upgrade your identity first in order to create that change. Because you can't get nine ounces out of a six ounce glass. You've got to expand your capacity, you've got to expand your identity, you've got to expand your awareness.

Mmm.

to allow that to grow. And they're some of the biggest principles that I've learned where I have to grow first and let go of the attachments to the old in order to move forward into the new.

I mean, like, it would be interesting to kind of go with this theory here that, you know, just came through me as you were talking about this, which is, yeah, like, so I was listening to something today and it brought me memories of around, you know, what Dr. DiMartini said, like, 25 years ago when I was a student and he was in our gymnasium and he said this, and it was almost like he goes, you know, think of all the dark things, think of all the, I'm sorry, think of all the things that you,

Yep, I can see you thinking, I can see you thinking going, oh, he's gone somewhere, yeah, so I'm curious. Yep.

dislike around someone, about someone, or about people you don't like. What are those qualities that you dislike? And then he said the statement, which is like, once you list them all, he goes, those dislikes that you dislike in someone, they're also in you. It just happens to be in your dark side. It's like the things that you avoid. And so I guess it comes back to the conversation around is, the qualities that you...

Yeah.

hold onto the identity, obviously you have those. But if you ask the question like, well, you know, Jim, how would you, who do you want to become in five years time? You know, like what kind of qualities do you want to see within yourself that you don't currently have? And you'll say XYZ, right? But I don't know what you think about this, what if I said to you that the XYZ characteristics and the quality that you're striving for is already in you, right? The only thing that's holding you back is like the, you know, our lizard brain is

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

actually don't want you to go there. And so any good and bad qualities are within us. And I think, you know, we think about like, you know, but someone will say, well, no, I don't have like a, you know, a cheating mentality, or I don't have like a vicious, brutal mentality to fight someone or to really hurt someone. I don't know. Like if you really had to dig deep, like, you know, it's in all of us. I think it might not.

Mm. Yeah.

been able to, and you know, might not have to been able to shine that through because of your circumstances that maybe you're growing up, but I think it is within us to, you know, do horrendous things, you know, but we have the control and composure and maybe education and also to suppress that part of our brain or suppress that not brain sorry, our character, that character within us because, but it is still within us. We don't like to acknowledge it. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah. Yeah, totally agree with that. And I remember, I think John Z. Montini talks about it as the traits of the greats. And fundamentally what you look at and admire in others is also in you. And I agree with you that there are going to be the parts of us that annoy us in other people of all sorts of parts, the unloved parts in ourselves. And so a lot of the work and this is why it's important to do personal growth work in yourself to understand yourself at a higher level is that when you take ownership of both of your good traits.

Hmm.

and your dark traits, the light side and the dark side, you actually then don't then become triggered when someone gives you some feedback that taps into that part of you that is unloved and is feeling less than. So a lot of the times, if you can embrace that and if you can go, yeah, there are times, like you said, where I express negative qualities or dark qualities. and you take ownership of them rather than trying to reject them, rather than trying to go, no, that doesn't, it's not possible. You're stunting your own growth. And so provided, I guess, the feedback is in such a way that you can use that constructively because some people's, you know, opinion or view of honesty is brutal honesty where you just torch someone and that stops the capacity for that person to receive it. But if you get to a point where there's trust and that has to be there, you can then deliver these truths. And if the person receiving it can look for the gift in the difficulty of receiving that and go, okay, how can I use this? Where is this true? And how can I use this to evolve and progress? And then I think it's a fantastic insight that they can have which can help them move forward. Where previously they would have just gone, no, it doesn't happen, doesn't exist.

Yeah, it's such an interesting topic because I do agree with that first statement you made, which is like, we have to, I don't have to do anything, I guess, but it's like, if you want to grow, I think it's really important for all of us to, anybody who wants to grow, just to be reflective and actually do that self work. And that takes time. That takes time to be able to go through that process. And it is a process. And that process, I think the first step is what we kind of started off with, is you're gonna have to

Yeah. Hmm.

learn to let go of the stories you have in your head or what you think you may be or not be. I think, you know, and that limits, I've seen this many times, people, and I've been guilty of this, like, I don't have a problem. But then when someone takes someone's really good facilitator and goes through this process, I'm like, oh, I didn't even know that existed, you know? I'm sure you've been through that. It's like, I literally feel like I'm no problem, but it's like, oh crap, and tears start flowing through your body. I'm like, oh.

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

I didn't even know that was an issue, you know And didn't even know that was a pain inside of me

Yeah, perfect. And, and, and I guess we've often talked about the difference between mentoring and coaching and in those moments, some of the greatest coaches I've ever had were people who threw their insights or their ability to hold up a mirror to me or ask me specific questions allowed me to access it. So I could come up to that realization by myself. So then it's different when someone tells you something and you can go, no, I'm going to reject it. But when you come to that conclusion yourself, you go. Actually that is true, holy smoke. I've been blind to this my whole life, all this time. Something shifts in you and you can move forward with it. But like you said, right from the start, you gotta be open to it. You have to be open to it.

Yeah, I think, you know, one of the most important thing too, as well as people go through that process is to also recognize not to be so hard on themselves, right? Because I think it's very easy when you start to realize, you get this realization and then you go, man, like why didn't, why have I gone through 10 years of my life or 20 years of my life, not realizing this in myself or, and you start, then you start going to that internal dialogue and start beating up on yourself, right?

Yeah.

I think it's important for people to recognize is like you are a Jeff Spencer my coach my mentor mindset coach always said you like you have like a human mind and you have like a You know a champion's mind, right? Your default is your human mind, you know Your default is your human mind, which is like the lizard brain the lizard brain is always going to try to protect you Right and they're gonna your default is to make yourself comfortable like no one Like, you know, you go to the you know, jujitsu and stuff. No one puts themselves willingly to get

Hmm. Yeah.

You know what I mean? No one willingness to put, like we have to have done a lot of overriding within ourselves to say, oh no, I'm taking control of my body to go through that process and that pain and the process of working out and do that, right? Like we've done that work, but you know, but intelligently no one does. The perfect example is when I did a bungee jumping once or you know, bungee jumping is the perfect example because I was in New Zealand doing a bungee jump and I remember like thinking, like as you walk out, that platform, you know, everything's, you know, safety checks, you walk on the platform, your human brain, lizard brain says to you, what the F are you doing? Yeah, I mean, like, this is not a sane, like, this is not what you're supposed to do. Right. And, but that's a, that's a natural built in DNA response that's supposed to be there. Right. If you don't have that fear.

Are you joking? Yeah.

think something's wrong like this. It might be something wrong, right? Or you have trained your body to not feel that fear anymore, right? But that takes a lot of repetition.

Yeah. Yeah, well, a lot of first responders, a lot of soldiers have done that. I've got friends of mine who have been military who can actually override that self-preservation instinct so that, you know, when everybody's running away from danger, they're trained to turn in and run into it. You know, so that's overriding primal brain alarm bells going, hey, danger, danger.

Yes. But that takes a lot of practice, right? A lot of practice. And this is the thing, like, you know, that's the thing. Making that jump, making that leap is one of hundreds or thousands of overriding that human response, but it is primal. And it's meant to be there. It's meant to keep us safe.

A lot, a lot, yeah.

And I think that we have to recognize there is two sides of us. There is that champion side or the human and then the human side. And the human side is always gonna try to protect us. And, but we have to, if you're, as soon as you're aware of that, you then have an opportunity, right? At any given time, moment to go, I choose to be a champion mind. But going back to the thing of beating yourself up, that's why I was going with this story, is that it's a recognized going, you know what? That was just my human brain, my human body. protecting myself all those years. Now I see a different light, I see a different perspective. And because now I see this perspective, it's like I honor instead of, I honor that side. I honored my human brain for protecting me all these years, even though it was frustrating. But I've got so much more now that I can see the light or I can see the other side, versus going, man, why are you so stupid that you didn't been thinking about this for so long? And I think that's really healthy and makes you important.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, all these constructs and walls we put in our mind actually are designed to keep us small and safe and protected. And you're right, it's counterintuitive. So you don't have to go out on the ledge to bungee jump, but you don't have to go into a fight to experience the ability to override that. How many times have we said to someone when we're coaching, hey, listen, have you considered doing this? Oh, I could never do that. What's stopping you? Other people have done that. Oh yeah, but it's them and I'm this and... I'm too much of this or less of that. Or, okay, well, how about you give it a go? And the moment they do that and they realize it was safe, I did it, they go, oh, okay, wow. And that's the whole basis of fire-walking, right? You've done many, many fireworks over time. The first time you do it, you go, it doesn't make logical sense. I'm gonna get burnt to a crisp, and yet the moment that you walk over and finish it and celebrate, I remember doing it with Tony Robbins.

Hmm. No it doesn't.

30 years ago with 10, 15,000 people doing it at the same time. I'm like, how the hell is this possible? And yet at the end, cool mox, cool mox. So that was, yeah, that's exactly right. You remember it. But the moment you get past it, you go, wow, what else did I think was impossible that suddenly isn't? And that opened the trap door in my mind that allowed me then to explore and to lean into those kind of belief systems.

Cool moss, cool moss, cool moss. Well, and the openness is what we've been talking about. If we can like kind of go back to the original conversation is like when you have a closed mind, when you have a certain bias or what you think you already know, you wouldn't even be at the fire pit, you know, to walk on coals. Like you don't even go like, no, that's a stupid, right? But if you're open, you don't have to walk on coals, but you just go, at least you kind of go, okay, I'm gonna observe, I'm gonna look. I mean, that's what we're talking about. The people who are closed

Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah.

engage or even look because it's like that's just dumb, right? I don't even want to look at that. And that closes off a lot. And this is not just about your personal development talking about, like, we've been experiencing that for the last two years, really, if you think about it, like, you know, the whole thing with COVID, for example, it's like all these things that are happening, it's, you know, people are just like, no, I don't even want to look at that. I don't even want to look at that evidence. I don't even want to look at this. It's like, I'm not saying what's right or wrong. It's just like, we are so conditioned to go like, I must be right. And you must be wrong. And there's now no conversation.

No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We can't even have a healthy conversation and have not a debate, but just hearing the other side of someone to see how they might be approaching it. Not to say that it doesn't mean that they're going to change my mind or anything. It's just more like, just engaging in human conversation. I feel like we're losing that when we are so stuck in these identities and these labels. I think the public society is starting to lose that ability to...

Yeah.

have proper conversation and also have healthy discussions versus like only having certain silos of thinking this must be this these are my people and that's all I need to hear from I don't want to hear from other people.

Yeah, I'd regularly seek out people who have different views on things just to get into their head to go, okay, show me or tell me or highlight to me how you view the world or you view this from another perspective. And again, insights into it, you know, I've learned maybe it's through wisdom, maybe through impatience over time. But I, people who are, who have a very one view of things and aren't open to the possibility. I actually have a screening question to someone. If I get to a point and it's a debatable discussion, I'll go, I'll ask them, I'll go, listen, I'm just curious. Are you open to the possibility of another reality or something different to this existing? If they go, no, I'll go, well, dude, thanks a lot. See you later because I'm wasting my time here. And you're not even open to that. And it's not a righteous part of me. It's just, I've gotten really discerning and protective of my time that I've gone. I'll then tap into my ego to try to cause my right, and I don't wanna do that. So I'm just gonna go, hey listen, if we're having a conversation, I'm comfortable in the opposing views, and at the end of it I'll go, well thanks man, I've never considered that. I'm better for the experience and the conversation in talking to you, I appreciate it. But like you said, if I'm met with someone who is a brick wall, and I bring my brick wall, and they collide. We don't get actually resolution. All we do is just get anger and frustration and communication quality goes downhill.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this in previous episodes or before, but I feel like there's a healthy exercise that I've been doing or I've been for several years now, but it's something I kind of bring up over and over again for myself. It's like, you know, it's about perception. And oftentimes, like I have a perception of myself, like, oh, we all have a perception of ourselves or what we think, how others perceive us. And oftentimes, when I start really kind of digging in, I start to realize like, when people start to tell me different things, I'm like, oh, maybe how I think of myself is not what everybody perceives of me, right? I'm sure we all have that experience, right? I have a view, but then I'm in, but I can't see myself other than looking in a mirror, right? So therefore, I think this is what I appear to people, but then realizing that how others see me, and just close friends or people reflecting back, I'm like, oh, maybe you see me in a totally different light than what my brain tells me.

Yeah. Hmm.

And so I started questioning this and I had this like this exercise that I do, which is called the what if. So the what if exercise is this, and I hope this is helpful for the listeners and viewers, which is the exercise is I go, well, what if everybody else is right and I'm wrong? how would I then act accordingly based on that new information? So I'll say that again, it was like, so what if like, you know, everybody's right about me on say, you know, blank or whatever the personality or the topic or the skillset that I have, and I'm wrong thinking that I'm no good at it, how would then I approach that situation? So this came up when, say doing videos, I think it was from memory. So I was like, you know, I'm pretty good at videos, but I don't think I'm great, you know? I think I'm okay. And then, but everybody kept on saying like, man, like Lawrence, you know, you're so natural on video, blah, blah. And they just started saying these nice things. I'm like, yeah, that's nice to me. But then when you hear it enough times, you go, okay, like, am I, do I have a wrong perception that maybe I'm better than I actually think I am, right? And so then I go, okay, well, forget about whether I'm right or wrong, if that's irrelevant. Was more the question going, well, what if everybody's right, which is like, I am fantastic at videos, I'm really great on camera, versus me thinking, and I'm wrong that I'm okay in camera.

Hmm.

good enough, how would I then approach shooting videos? Well, the answer came out to me like, well, I'll just shoot more videos and I would have, you know, I'll just do whatever, whatever comes to mind. I'm like, oh, that's not that interesting. I'm like, okay, well, what if I did that? Let's see what happens. And that got me the call, almost gave me the confidence to go like, well, like, what do you got to lose if everybody thinks you this way? I'm like, why don't we do that? So I think that's a, I don't know if it's healthy for anybody else, but I feel like there was something in me to go. What if everybody's wrong?

Hmm.

and I was, sorry, everybody was right and I was wrong, how would I then act? Because something changes in you. Because if you only act the way you act because you feel a certain way, but if you were wrong, right, then how you're acting may be limiting you versus you could be acting in a totally different way if everybody else is right about you.

I think that's a really good point that you raise because you see that in the entrepreneurial world sometimes that what keeps the dream alive is the conviction that you have when the outside world is giving you different types of feedback. So there's an element of that that's really important. But it's about being able to be discerning and then go, okay, now it's just my ego getting in the way here. And that's a bit different. So I take on that on one hand. And funnily enough, I just finished watching. documentary on Bernie Madoff on Netflix, which was fascinating, actually really interesting about one of the biggest Ponzi schemes ever. A lot of people got ruined. But it's actually what was really amazing to me, there was a line, there was a guy called Harry Markopoulos, who was like a statistician, a mathematician, and he ran the numbers and worked out that it was actually mathematically impossible for Bernie Madoff to be getting these recurrent returns year and year and year. It was defying logic. And so he went and he was starting telling the securities commission and, and he was going and saying, listen, there's something I'm quite right about this plan and they were like, no, we're the securities commission. They didn't do their due diligence. No, no, they're not right. He went and spoke to someone who was responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars. And he point blanked asked him to go, listen, if I'm wrong, I'm just going to be another idiot and that anybody just has discounted you already. But what if I'm right? What if I'm right and what I'm telling you is the truth? And this other guy goes, well, that'll be the end of me. And this guy wasn't prepared to entertain the thought that his view was even possibly incorrect, right? Now, you've got to balance it up between sometimes maintaining the conviction and going, look, I know the feedback isn't there, but I know in my heart this is the right path and righteousness and judgment that stops you.

Yes.

taking on quality information and feedback.

That is then that leads to the dilemma that a lot of people face including myself which is like when do you know that you are right and when you know you're wrong because That that's the other dark side of it, right? Which is what you said is that sometimes like, you know a lot of times actually we need to know like no this is within my values or this is you know This is my this is I truly believe this is you know, my belief I know or knowingly this is my right path or this is my right choice and

Yes.

to discern that with, am I just making that decision because of my bias, that I actually cognitive bias that I have around this? And there's no right or wrong answer here, or it's a very difficult thing to navigate, but you bring up a really good point, which is how do you navigate that? How do you decide which is when to follow, when not to follow, because it works on both sides of the coin?

Yeah. I think a really good metric. I usually refer to neuro linguistic programming or NLP for that. And they've got, they've got a distinction between what's called associated and fully associated and dissociated. Right. And just an example, anybody who's not sure of what that is. If you're, if you imagine you're at a theme park and you're on a roller coaster and as the roller coaster is just about to get to the peak and you're about to go down. You can feel your heart rate going up, your sweating, your terrors coming through there, your stomach's in your throat. You're fully in the experience and you've got massive emotion in there. So that's one example of fully associated. Now, imagine if you will, you're standing on the ground, watching yourself going through that experience. You're kind of removed from that experience. You're what's called dissociated from that. And so you have the ability to discern or go what's called meta as in elevate outside of the situation to have the observed observation of the experience. So you're not going to get the same emotion and you can think a lot more logically. And so the number of times where I'm in that moment myself, I quite often will work to or coach people to go, okay, you're right in it right now. What if using your terminology, you could take yourself out of the situation and observe yourself or

Hmm.

you were watching somebody else role play this exact same thing. What would you think? What would you say? What would, and you sometimes what happens is people go, man, I'm the, I'm the block in there because I'm really stubborn and I'm not letting them to progress. But when I dissociate from it and I have distance from it, I can see the situation and I really need to change course or actually I need to double down because I feel like I was right. And, and that to me taps into the innate intelligence that we have that allows us to fundamentally get a rough idea of what is right. And if we don't, then we go, okay, I need some help.

Yeah, another exercise is very, like, that would be helpful from a frame perspective, which is the future self. Like, you know, going towards the future and then going like, what would your future self, maybe like the five year old, five year old older version of you, would say to you in respect to this particular decision that you're making, right? Is that this association? And I think that sometimes it's, I think that person's gonna be you. And you can project yourself to be in the future if you had ABC and had all these characteristics.

The end.

What kind of advice would you give back to that person, to you now? It's such a powerful thing. And I think that moment of, and then all of a sudden you realize when you do that, you're like, oh man, that wouldn't take me five years to get there, right? It's like, I can do that now, and I can actually start leaning towards those characteristics. Yeah, it's great insight.

Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. And because you're using emotion at that time, your emotion is really cutting down the possibilities in your brain. So you're not thinking laterally, you're only just thinking about the current situation. And that's where the ego mind and the human experience is coming through, as opposed to the logical higher self that's not allowed to find solutions. So yeah, man, I just noticed myself if I'm in something and I can't think clearly. I'll defer making a decision until I'm sound mind. So I've learned that if I make decisions from that place or if I receive some feedback or something and that's not what I want, my natural instinct is to wanna fight that. And yet I've learned through experience that doesn't really serve me because what I'm then doing is I'm bringing my righteousness and ego and hurt self to that situation that's trying to find... basically relief from pain, not resolution, but relief from pain. So consequently I'll go, I'm gonna hit pause, I'm gonna come back to this, go for a walk or whatever, clear my mind, down regulate the stress response and the emotional response. Now I can think logically, I could think of this from a different perspective, and will that be any different? And then it just gets me out of trouble, as opposed to just reacting and shooting from the hip, just because you didn't hear things the way you wanted to hear it.

Yeah, so it's brilliant insights and I think there's just some great exercises I think a lot of people can either take and actually just start applying and just trying it out I mean, what do you got to lose? Right? What do you got to lose? And I have one more which is very similar to you is like instead of sometimes Myself I used to Haven't done some long time, but I don't know why but it's you know, something that helped me a lot was, you know Yeah, I created a board of directors

Man, I love that. I love that.

So I created like a virtual board of directors and those board of virtual board directors or could be someone who's alive or who was passed on but someone who I respect and you know my only board directors and I would kind of if I was kind of stuck and I would be like, okay I just go into my like virtual room and I'll seem silly to some people but hey, I'm gonna go with this because this is exactly what I did. I would just go present and go like alright, what would you say, you know and What it is going through each and every single person in that board direction They will have a different response based on their personality and who they are But then I get like this insight from like a 360 degree and from different perspective All coming from my own mind, right? It's the energy and or whatever but it's like it's just helps me kind of discern of like if I asked Tony Robbins What he would say to this he will give me a certain response knowing his personality But if I ask, you know, I don't know someone else like Gandhi

Yeah.

you know, what would he say to this? And he would just give me a different perspective. And I think that's another way of kind of playing with this energy and playing with this field to kind of seek advice, to really kind of create momentum and forward and decision-making.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, Lawrence, I, in the world of augmented reality and AI, that's actually going to become, it's possible, right? You just, you and I have just been ahead of our time because I've been doing that for years as well. And so fundamentally we'll have that scenario where you get a holographic version of, of someone who you can literally just do exactly the thing. You round table a group of people. And even if they just, like, like same thing with, I've anchored, I've listened to so many of Tony Robbins. audio programs, Les Browns, Eric Tomlin, I've heard all of their audio so many times that I only just got to hear their voice and that I stand to attention, I recite what's going on and I access everything that I've learned from them in a nanosecond. So I think it's possible that you can do that, which highlights then a really good frame is that if you're not sure what to do, you ask for support, ask for help.

Yes.

go to your network, go to your virtual network, all these things tap into the experience and the intelligence and the wisdom outside of self to help you get through that scenario. You don't have to work it all out yourself.

Yeah, and I think that's the key thing. Like when you seek wisdom and help, it doesn't mean you have to follow everybody who gave you an advice. It's more like you gotta be able to get to a place where you can accept advice, do the process of going, okay, who should I listen to, like based on that, you still gotta go through it. I mean, the advice is just advice, right? And I tell this to my clients, what I tell you isn't gospel. What I tell you is what I feel, but you have to make the decision. on acting on those, on whatever I tell you, because it may or may not be suitable for you based on a lot of knowledge and things that I may not be even aware that's inside your brain. And so I think when we seek advice, which is number one thing, like definitely ask for advice and seek for wisdom, but then have the ability to be able to kind of discern those advice and then go check in with self, to going, is this right for me? Right? And if it's not, move on, like it's fine. Like it's not, it doesn't hurt anybody.

Yep, yep. Yeah, and yeah, totally agree. And the block for some people then is they go off and ask for advice and yet they actually stay in there. They don't actually pull the trigger and move forward. So at some point, you know, if you look at people who are high leadership roles, they'll get insights from different people, from different opinions. they'll look at the scenario and go, what's best for this situation? Okay, we're going in this direction. And they go all in, in that direction. So they seek guidance, but the other day, they've got to do exactly what you just said, is make it relevant to them, their value structure, find out what's going on. The block for a lot of people is they're perpetually in the getting more information, getting more information. I'll just get a little bit more and then I'll go, I'll do a little bit more work. And momentum never builds because... Even if you start a process and realize that's not the right one, you can always go back and go, right, okay, I tried that, didn't work, okay, reload, start again. But stuck in that constant loop of getting more information basically paralyzes people, doesn't allow them to move forward.

Yeah, and I think the reason why a lot of people don't take that step, the process, is because it's a lot easier to follow someone's advice, and if it goes wrong, it's their fault, not mine. And this is what we're saying, is that you gotta get to a point where you gotta take self-responsibility, is that you made that choice, but you listened to that person, you made that choice. Like, the buck stops with you, and that's responsibility. I think responsibility...

Yep, yep, yep. Yeah.

need self-responsibility, such an important element for growth, that you have to take responsible for all the actions and mistakes that you made, not because of anybody else. And it's so easy to blame others for your failures and credit success to yourself, right?

Yeah. Yeah, you just take the good stuff. You know, when the good stuff happened, it's all me. And if things go right, it's that, it's them. It's that person, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's how we're wired, right? Is how we're, so, you know, if you're gonna take credit, you gotta take the blame. And I think this is exactly what we gotta say. Like, it's such an important thing that we gotta recognize. So, man, I feel like we've, you know, talked a lot about different things and biases and how it affects us, but I think more importantly, I was really excited about some of the potential exercise that people can utilize and follow to help them kind of navigate through.

Yeah, yeah.

through the minefield of what we discussed today. So do you have any lasting words, Jim?

No, not really. I think we started, and I guess this is the format that a lot of the times we've got a theme and a topic that either is bubbling in our minds or we find is consistently the theme. Like, I don't know about you, but like a lot of the times we go, hey, I think we should talk about this. It's because the people I'm working with, they're all sort of cycling through that at the same time. So I'll go, okay, let's open it up. And then we bring it to discussion. And we've got a rough idea of what we're gonna talk about. But in the moment we're going, okay, this is this. And so these are the practical steps that we're talking about are action steps. Well, fundamentally we're unraveling this process as we're going on in terms of, in the discussion mode, or we're adding insights. We're looking at different perspectives, different views coming at it, and it just opens up. And so to me, no, I think that the key takeaways for me while I stay open, that's really, really important. Take ownership on both, as you said, the good stuff and the stuff that is more challenging because that's what allow you to grow and what you resist persists and what you embrace, you can change. And so fundamentally that allows you then to not to be triggered if someone gives you information. I know triggering is a triggering word for some people, but fundamentally it just means that we don't get reactive to a word, a concept, a label. which we want to reject, but it isn't reality, it's part of us as well. So, no, I don't think I've got anything to add.

Well, this is what Wabi Sabi is all about, the art of imperfection, and this is why we have these discussions. So thank you, Jim, for great insights today, and for those people who are watching this on YouTube and other channels or listening to this on other various podcasts, we thank you for your time and your energy, and please share this with others, and make sure you like and subscribe. And we'll see you on the next episode of Wabi Sabi.

I'm sorry. Okay, bye bye. No, no, this is good.

Oops, sorry. I think I left the studio instead of ending it.

Yeah, it's still going, still recording.

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