Managing Setback

Man, man, oh man, oh man, Jim, it's been a hell of a week, hasn't it? You know, it's one of those things, I think, when we are living life and enjoying life. It's the cumulative things that are going on in our lives that no one ever talks about, and no one has the, let's say, the video or the experience of what we're actually going through. And social media projects the highlight reel.

Oh boy, yes it has. Yep.

the goods, the best of the parts, but no one, you know, that one split second, they don't see the other, you know, 23 hours and yeah, exactly.

The happily ever after syndrome, right? The happily ever after syndrome, where it's like, hey man, you make the decision and you live happily ever after, right?

Yeah, exactly. And it's funny. I think this is where we're going to have the conversation today. I mean, you brought up this topic around managing setbacks. And I would imagine that anybody who's listening or watching this podcast, including ourselves here, if they've gone through any life, any part of life, no matter how old you are, you must have had some setbacks in your life. I think if you didn't have setbacks, I think, I don't know, I would venture to say

Yep.

that I actually feel sorry if you didn't have any setbacks because it means like

Yeah, it would be like a sheltered life, right? Because fundamentally the human experience means there are gonna be setbacks. And that process of setbacks, enduring, learning, picking yourself up, keeping going again, that's the human story. That's pretty much what life's all about really, in terms of any area.

Yeah, absolutely. But yet, you know, setback and even in the word, right, set, you know, sets us backwards. That statement and that feeling, I'm sure all of us have gone through. But in the moment, like it's easy for us to kind of, I want to be really clear on this, as we talk about this type of things and how to manage and what to do and some of the strategies that, you know, has maybe helped us get through setbacks. In the moment though, of any setbacks,

Yep.

it's gonna it's uncomfortable and it sucks and you're in deep pain most of the time. And you know, the reason why it's a lot easier to talk about it now because it's usually done in hindsight, we're actually not in it currently unless there's something going on with you currently, you know, like most of the stuff that we're gonna talk about is usually from the past and past experience. And so why? Well, I think the reason why I think it's important to talk about is number one, we need to be aware that there are strategies that can help you to also recognize that

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

these strategies need to be repeated in your head and acknowledged and be aware of so that you can actually apply it in the appropriate manners when it does happen because oftentimes when the setback does happen, your emotions are so high and makes it very difficult to extrapolate that knowledge you might have gained from a podcast like this to bring it to the forefront to actually activate it. So what I'm saying to you is for anybody listening and watching this is that, you know, take it for whatever, you know, the advice we give you today, but also like

Yeah. that's what we need to do. We don't have to have all the power and the power to do the right thing. We just have to do the right thing. And that's what we need to do. And that's what we need to do. And that's what we need to do. And that's what we need to do.

put some of it into practice immediately if you can, because that's when it will sink in, that will put into practice of all the things that are important that sort of when the time comes, it's like you practicing jujitsu, right? It's like you practice, you practice, practice, because you wanna make it so like this when someone does attack you for real. And so you can react, it's like muscle memory.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, look at that totally. And there's a saying in Jijitsu that says, it takes you 10,000 submissions to get to your black belt. And most people associate that with 10,000 submissions that you have on somebody else, but the reality is it's on you. Right, so you'll get submitted 10,000 times. Correct, not on yourself, somebody else submits the daylights out of you.

No, I thought it was a 10,000th submission of myself. Yeah, yeah.

process, each and every one of those is kind of like equivalent to Edison's light bulbs or 10,000 hours because fundamentally what you're looking at is a setback. You go, hey, gee, that didn't work too well. Next time I need to do this. So there's a, you know, Einstein always used to say a definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different outcome, right? And so that to me is what setbacks give you is yes, there's the disappointment. Yes, when you're in it, it's painful. It's...

Hmm.

It challenges you. Everything is gonna come up. All the stories you tell yourself about yourself and what it means are all gonna come up. You have to cycle through that, right? However, there's an opportunity if you... What's that?

Hmm all comes out as like a split second to It all comes right at like one second and everything, all of that stuff just comes at you. Yeah.

Yeah, look, it's like a pop-up screen. That's it. It's like a pop-up screen that happens straight away and you have to basically have the situational awareness and the time to go, okay, let's just pause, let's hit pause, let's, yeah, cycle through the emotion, but what can I learn from this? And I think to me, that's the biggest gift in a setback quite often, if you allow it to be.

Yeah. Yeah. So let's maybe start talking about like, why we have setbacks in the first place, right? So we already kind of touched upon like the importance of setbacks. I think, like you said, both of us are both agree, I don't think we need to dive too much into this, but setbacks are important development of our human growth, and to make us better and stronger people. However, I think one of the things that is important to recognize is like what maybe, I think we'll start the conversation here, like, what are some of the things that, you know, happens? that create setbacks possibly. Okay, so I'll start here. Like I think one of the main reasons that create setbacks is the word expectation, right? Is that we set ourselves with certain expectations and because of that expectation, and whether that be right or wrong, oftentimes it's like a higher expectation. Like I'll give you my example. We talked about this before we started recording. My house is being completed. It's supposed to been done. by now and I was supposed to have moved in by now. And hence like, but as you can see, for those people watching, I'm still here in my Airbnb for the last six months. And because we had this expectation was supposed to be done in September, now October and now November. It's like, it's a pushback. It's another two weeks, another two weeks, another two weeks. So then because we had that certain expectation, it's like, it becomes like this thing, like it's never ending. It doesn't seem like it's ending. So it keeps us setbacks occur because we, the reality of life. isn't matching to the expectation that we thought was supposed to happen. Yeah. Anything else that you've. Yeah.

and that's a good thing. That's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. It's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah, and the Buddhists have a saying that basically... I was just going to say the Buddhists have quite often a saying that says, pain is normal, suffering is... you know, that's basically, that's the difference. You have a choice in terms of... suffering is not...

Is not, yeah.

compulsory and a lot of the times it's the meaning or the interpretation or the outcome that you're talking about that creates a lot of the suffering. So particularly in Buddhist principles and in a lot of principles, New Age ones, they talk about the surrender and the surrender process is about saying, okay, this setback is not me, it's not about me, not personalizing the setback and some failing or frailty within the person. It's basically going, okay, here's the scenario. How do I interpret it? How do I actually surrender to it, give it my best shot and then surrender to the process? And I get what you're talking about with the house setback Lawrence, because a lot of the times that it's human nature to go, okay, all right, this will go on till September. And then September comes and goes and it's created a whole lot of stress for you. You go, okay, I'll push it out October. It's gotta be ready by October and it's not. And And so, part of it is managing your own expectations, but then also working through the emotional journey of what's coming up for you when those setbacks are coming along. There's two parts to it.

Yeah, yeah, I love that personalization one because I mean that is so true The more we personalize something and I obviously these setbacks, you know affect us personally but the more you invest emotionally and personally if affecting and making it seem like it's you it's all on you or does it like You make yourself a victim really? That's what we're doing kind of thing. It makes exemplify It multiplies that pain And and that and the suffering you're talking about and that is an option that we don't have to

Yep, yep. Yeah. Yeah, so there's two parts. You know, remember back in psychology when we used to do this, Lawrence, when we were studying, and the colleges talk about the internal locus of control and the external locus of control. So the internal locus control basically says what factors are within your control that you can change that can have an impact, right? And so when you feel like you have autonomy, when you feel like you have control over a situation, any setback, you go, okay, well, I can adapt. I can handle that.

Hmm.

But whenever there's factors outside of your control or there's the perception of permanence, i.e. this is always gonna be like this, that's when it starts doing your head in. That's when it really starts having an impact on you over and above the setback, it's the multiplier effect that you're talking about. So I think it's really important, we will definitely deep dive into some of the strategies specifically, but I think what effect a setback has to people,

Yeah.

can be different in different situations in terms of how they interpret setbacks or how they interpret challenges in life.

Well, I think that goes right to the point of like how you, you know, your interpretation of the story you make up about this, sorry, the story you create of this from the setback would determine the life you're going to lead moving forward. So like, I think that's, I think it's an important thing to talk about, right? Cause if you, if you take, um, like I say, what you said about personalizing, personalizing it. So the certain things that happen, let's say, say setback occurs and you personalize it as like, Oh man, it's, it's all, you know, I've become the victim because it was on me or because I,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I was, oh, I'm the stupid one or I'm always making these mistakes all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And you create this story and it's just like, now you've just created a story that may or may not be true. Uh, let's be clear on that. And then all of a sudden, but it will change the trajectory of your life simply because that story becomes your reality. And then that reality becomes your real new expectation and that new expectation. Now you're going to find your brain is so smart.

Yeah, I'm less than, I'm not good enough, all those kind of things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

in a way, but dumb at the same time. Because if you ask a certain question, like, why am I stupid? Your brain will tell you all the reasons why you're stupid, right? Because you asked the specific question. If you change the question to why am I so brilliant, then your brain will search out for answers to answer that question. So if you set a certain expectation that, you know, I'm stupid all the time, I lose money in every single deal I have, or, you know, I'm just terrible at business. Yeah, your brain will create that bias in you, and then...

Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

you know, show you all those evidence that moving forward, that why you're, you know, to make sure that, that that statement is actually accurate, but hence, but the problem was, is because it simply was a story you created at some point in your life.

Yeah, totally. And you know, the, I was just thinking as you were saying that, like, I'll give you a personal example, like the way I used to do life particularly was anytime there was a setback, there was like this, um, brick wall and I just, I'd come up against a brick wall and quite often it would be, you know, one of the emotions for me, a lot of times was frustration. Right. So I've really had to cycle through what frustration meant and why that was the case, but my default always was ego and just take a longer run up. Right? And I just repeat the same mistake constantly and just take a longer and longer run up thinking that perhaps if I just muscle my way through this, I'll break down this brick wall. But you learn pretty quickly that the walls are pretty sturdy and as time goes on and maybe it's, you know, maturity that says, hey dude, that wall is staying just as strong and you aren't getting, you know, you're basically aging. I did exactly what you just said is like ask a different question.

Yeah, just be smarter and go use the door.

Yeah, pretty much, man. It's like, hey man, is there another way through this? Oh yeah, there's a door, there's a ladder. I can go around it. I don't have to bust through it. But when you're in it, sometimes you don't have awareness to ask a different question. And for me, what was happening, and substitute with that brick wall is, you name it, that the wall represented, whether it was basically a setback in physically, mentally, emotionally, financially, it was the same approach. It was the same response. And I had to do the work on myself to go, hey dude, just keep doing the same thing. This is how it's gonna keep working. And sometimes you need someone out in the blindfold. Yeah.

Well, I think that's the human condition, right? Yeah, well, the human condition is that you're gonna look for those things and you're gonna keep on keeping on unless you get shown a different perspective. And that's why I think coaching is such an important element in everybody's life. You know, whether, you know, the coach is there or like how I define coaching or at least, you know, the coaching that we do, it's like our coaching isn't about, it's about providing you a perspective that you couldn't see. Like it's helping you see things that you couldn't see yourself, hear things you cannot hear, you didn't want to hear.

Yep. Yeah.

and help you be the person that you've always wanted to be. But it's like, there's certain things you just are built not to wanna see, because you don't wanna go and look at that, right? And you don't wanna hear it. So therefore that's what a coach does. And that shift in perspective, all of a sudden you see clearer, you hear things clearer, and all of a sudden that gives you that, just that window of opportunity to just go, okay, there's a different path, right? And I think that's the beauty of having someone.

Yes. Yeah.

It doesn't, it's someone who you can trust. I'm not saying it has to be someone who's hired, but you have to have, I think I honestly believe everybody has to have someone to guide them through the narrow scopes of life. That's what I think our job is as a parent, right? Our parent, like as a parent, I'm trying to like help my kids navigate through life. And as they're getting older, I'm trying to like be, I'm not there to like hold their hand anymore. Now it's more like.

Yep.

I'm there to help them take their steps on their own, right? As they get older and older. And I think that's, I think a parent is a coach is to help you see through those things. Be shown that perspective. And those small little 1% changes, changes their entire life.

Yeah, because we're all on a, we're blinked on a specific process and a path. And other times we don't identify our own blind spots. And really, like you said, the magic and the difference, or coaches have always played for me, is that they highlight those areas for me. And they highlight these spots and say, have a look at what's going on here. I don't need to tell you something, because if you can work this out through this process suddenly come up with your own answer, you suddenly go, holy smoke, now I see it. As opposed to someone telling you what the answer is, that you may have a story about, I don't like people telling me what to do, it reminded me of my mom, dad, whatever, all those kind of things, that can block you. So the process of setbacks is, I think a really key and important situation and scenario is what's the truth here? What's really going on here? How much is it is fabricated? How much of it is perceived and how much is it real? Because once you get to the truth, you can start having change. You can have transformation, the moment you get to core truth. And as a starting point, it's like, okay, here's where we're at. Really, this is what we're not. Not any worse, not any better, but that here it what it is. What would you say to that, Lawrence?

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's that's the hard part, you know, facing reality, right. And I remember, I think it was I'm pretty sure it was in good to great. When they talked about the stockdale paradox, right. And it was, it's basically I quickly summarized for those people who don't know it, which is like John Stockdale, I believe that's his first name was a POW in the Vietnam War. And you know, he was there, I believe he was the one of the highest ranking, you know, military

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

and that was actually captured. And he was there for seven years, for memory. And he survived, obviously, and when he was released, he did an interview with him, and they asked him, like, you know, who were the ones that didn't survive? And he's like, oh, that's easy. He's at the ones who were the optimists. And you're like, what?

And so, I think that's the key. I think that's the key. Yep. Yeah. I think that's the key. I think that's the key. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

And it is because he said like, yeah, those optimists is like, you know, they're the ones in the, in the camp that would say, Oh, don't worry guys. We'll get out by Easter. Easter comes around. Don't worry guys. We'll get out by summer. Don't worry guys. We'll get out by Thanksgiving and then by Christmas. And then when those expectations, again, that word expectation comes around and doesn't happen. They, there's only so long they can go for. And, um, so the optimists just basically gave up and there was the ones that, that, you know, couldn't make it through.

the the the the the the the the the the the the

And he says that, he goes, the one that made it through is that, it goes, who makes it through then? He said, well, the one that makes it through is usually two, they have two mindsets. It's one is that they have to have hope. Okay, so that's the important thing. They have to have hope, which is the optimistic side, right? They have to have hope that they will get through this, that this will end at some point. But the second thing they also have to have is they also have to face reality. They're a prisoner of war. this is the reality. They may be here for years and without rescue. And that's the reality. And I think that second part is what is the hardest for most people. It's like setbacks will happen, but it's like facing reality, this is as bad as you think it is, right? And it's like facing that reality sometimes, like I said, we sometimes are a turtle where we just don't wanna see it, don't wanna look at it, don't wanna hear it. And so we bury ourselves from it and hopefully that it will kind of just go away. You know? I think that happened for the last two years, isn't it? Like for a lot of COVID at the beginning, especially, it was like, no, no, like just two weeks, right? Two weeks to flatten the curve. And then when the reality sets in, like this is gonna be a long haul. And sometimes like we don't wanna face it or it could be an investment, right? Like right now we're in this high inflationary period of time, like things are, you know, not looking great over the next couple of years, right? Not next couple of months, like it could be looking the next couple of years. Possibly, I don't know, I'm not.

Yep. Yeah. Yep. where it's not as rare as it's not. So I wanted to give you a little bit of experience. Yeah.

that's not financial advice or anything, but like, I mean, just to say that, you know, the prediction is correct. It's like, but some people are like, no, no, no, I'm not going to look at it. You know, I'm sure my investment will go up, you know, and that's, I'm not saying this is advice to do whatever with your investment, but it's actually, you got to understand this is the environment we're in. You know, how do you navigate through that rather than going, hoping that I'm living in last year's environment and thinking that everything's going to go back to that.

Yeah, I think you're spot on in terms of, and I always love the Stockdale paradox story as well because it just highlights that the truism that has to happen, the reality of the situation, not any worse, any better. And I've got an extension of that and I've got a reference for it specifically as well. So when... Jim Collins talks about that in Good to Great. Tony Robbins talks about the scenario, it's very similar, where he basically says, look, you've got this scenario where you walk into your garden and you can say, no weeds, no weeds, no weeds, no weeds, and your garden's full of weeds, or you can go, there's weeds in there, let's get these suckers out of here and get done. So that's the reality, that's the basically practical application of that as well, which I think is in a very funny...

Yes.

way highlights exactly what we're talking about. It's like here's the reality of the situation. There are weeds. What are we going to do about that? Right? And not, not basically

Yeah, yeah. I think that's where people got the secret wrong, right? Like, you know, I mean, that the book in the movie, and I think then there's two camps that I'm not saying, you know, like, like it or not, like I was saying, like, the problem with like a lot of people with the secret was that the movie was that they just thought they just had to visualize it. And that was it. For getting the second part, which of what Tony Robbins says it just because visualizing Yes, that's like part one, you definitely got to know what you kind of want and put that into the universe and create.

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

But you actually still have to take some action to it, right? It's not like, you know, I'm going to lose the weight, I'm going to lose the weight. So that's just going to melt off.

Yeah, action, action for missing. That was the one. Yeah, correct. So they're the realities of it. And you know, like, it's going to be a little bit, a little bit morbid. Um, what I was going to use as an example, but you, you're right about the reality of the situation. I always remember my dad, my late dad always had this capacity and spirit. Yeah. And I think that probably inspired me greatly in terms of my career direction, in terms of how I ended up studying. to be a chiropractor in the first place, but he had this unwavering belief that his body had the capacity to heal. No matter what, he'd say, listen, I'm just gonna have a lie down, I'll get adjusted, well, I'll take care of it, and I'll be okay. And every time he was. And as he aged, he got to a point, I remember visiting him in the nursing home, and I looked him and he just looked at me and he goes, I'm actually not gonna get over this, am I? Because he had a basically pulmonary, scarring, he had a lot of trouble breathing and he he butted up against his own perceived view of optimism against the reality of the situation and when it met when they met each other it was really painful and stressful for him because he just had this realization that my body's actually not going to recover from this and that was that that's you know that's a really sad realization of place but then he made peace with that.

Interesting.

Right. So that was the next setback. He could have denied it. He could, but he turned, he turned that scenario went, okay, as painful as this is right now, that's the reality. I'm actually not going to get better. What am I going to do in the time I have left? Which was gradually, basically rapidly decreasing. How do I make the most of the situation? And, you know, he, he recorded videos for my kids, um, with, you know, wisdom, past, those kinds of things. So.

Yeah. Oh, that's great.

It can be really painful, but it's your decision in the moment to go, okay, how am I going to handle this and who am I going to become as a result of this setback that really defines where it goes from there.

You know, that reminds me of my mother passing away last year and sort of very similar situation, but I think, I mean, I never knew, I don't know the answer to this, so, you know, but I'll go through the story, very similar to your situation, you know, like when my mom, she was in Canada and I was in Australia, we were in lockdown, couldn't get out to see her, but you know, she was diagnosed with cancer. I was, it was quite rapid. And she was one, she was one,

and the the the the the the the the the the the the the

as funny as she is, like she's always been like this, but it got worse. I don't know, it's definitely affected her brain a little bit, I think, but it's basically got to a point where she hates technology, right? So she hates Wi-Fi, she hates like any of that stuff. So she made my dad like turn off Wi-Fi. I couldn't even FaceTime her or Skype her and see her because she wanted me to call her landline. And so... you know, like, I'll call the landline, that's fine, whatever. But I never got to see her. So all this time, like, we're talking months here. And then finally, I think my dad maybe, or my brother sent a picture. And right there, and then I'm like, oh my God. You just know, like, I don't know, Jim, like, I'm sure you've been through this, but where you just see a person, you go, they're a shell of who they were. And there's just something physically changes. You go, this is not good. Like, you can just see it. Like life is just not there. I've seen that twice in my life when someone calls my family and you just go, hmm, this is not good. And, but my mom just kept on the phone, just kept on telling me, everything's fine. You know, I'll be good. And you know, she didn't want to do any medicine or anything like that. And she was really just focused on healing. And, but for, I mean, I can speak to my personal relationship with what you just said around the reality. I basically flipped in my head, I'm like,

Yep. Yep. Yep.

you know, the possibility, the reality is I might never see my mom again, period. Like, you know, that's the reality because I was locked down, couldn't fly, couldn't get into the country, couldn't leave the country. And it's like, okay, like I could make it work. I can force it to happen maybe, like get some, you know, but then like what's a detrimental effect and blah, blah, blah, anyways, the whole point was I couldn't get there. And this is it, like this could be at any moment. But I don't know if she fully accepted that internally or she would.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I mean, at the same time, she's smart enough to maybe know that, accepted that reality, but not say anything to me because she didn't want me to worry, right? So that's also a believable side of the story too. So I don't know, to this day, I don't really know, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. But I guess, you know, the learning that I got from it is just that the reality thing, like that's the reality I have to face. And we as humans have to, it's very difficult to face those realities. It's difficult, it's hard.

So that's a good point. I think it's not a good point. I think it's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good point. Thank you.

We don't want to see it, but the fact of the matter is is that If you don't face the reality, we're making judgments and making decisions that May not serve us, but if we face the reality the decisions we make may actually help us Create a better future You know like what you your dad like your dad what your dad did? How's that? I mean, that's amazing like it's such an amazing thing right for him to do those recall recordings and videos

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally, totally. I mean. Yeah, but very resilient stock too, Lawrence. You know, like my dad for years would say, look, we haven't had as a society, you haven't had hardships that like we did. He was like product of basically post-war. He finished formal education in grade three, right? The war broke out and everyone went back to school, right?

All right.

The guy became a self-made millionaire through just grit and hard work, right? He literally busted himself. But that was the tenacity, and I think that's the part of me that learned to just drive and go harder and harder. I was modeling that behavior, right? But he always used to say, you know, and, and I observed this a lot if with a whole lot of post-war migrants who I saw around COVID when they handled it really well, to be honest, in my observation, some of these people handle setbacks. They're going this whole thing. What do you think I've got jars of olives, pickled, and 15 like I've been preparing for this my whole life, right? And everybody who's just like got one packet of spaghetti or something like that, that they were like caught out, right? But.

Ha ha ha.

But you go into a bunker, man, it's like six months' worth of food they've got at any one time, because they were prepared through the war. So my dad lived through the war, and so consequently that impacted his psyche and his capacity to go, you cannot expect the unexpected. And so plan for tomorrow, live for today.

Don't forget the toilet paper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

but have a contingency, have something, have a buffer, whatever it is, and the buffer could be food, cash, and that's how he went about life. And so that's the meaning he took through.

Yeah, it's so interesting to think about that. Like you think about your dad, my parents, that's the same thing, right? My parents went through the war and lived through poverty. Like my dad grew up in India, like he was born in India. My mom lived through poverty in China and Hong Kong. So both my family grew up in poverty and rose to the ranks on their own efforts and also luck and so on and so forth.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's a critical thing for our lives. Yep.

We will get into another podcast another time. But what I think about that is that, exactly, exactly. But you think about you and I, like I would say, you and I just based on what you just said, is that we were able to see the hardship. Actually, we didn't see it. I think we heard the stories, but we saw the success of how someone who overcame those hardship, but we never experienced it.

Yeah. Luckies win opportunity meets preparation, Lawrence. Hey? Yeah.

personally, I don't know if you did, but I didn't personally experience these hardships my parents went through. Um, and. And we, I was able to do it, but like, I really kind of think about this. I know we're kind of maybe going out to a topic, but I'm thinking, I'm talking about my kids, right? Like, let's face it, right? I didn't live, I didn't live through any hardship that my parents lived through. My kids definitely is not living through any hardship, right? And so, but what I, what I do feel like.

Yeah. Yep.

kind of bad for, right? It's like, they don't, I don't know, like you try to teach it, but it's not firsthand knowledge anymore, right? Cause they didn't go through me. Like, you know, so I think this is why this episode is such an important element. It's like, how do we not only how to manage our setbacks ourselves, but how do we teach that to our kids and next generations around how to handle these setbacks? What do you think about that?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, totally, totally, because what you're talking about is a really good example. Like, my kids are the same, right? They're never going to experience like what my parents did, and they're never going to experience what I did as well, too. So we're fortunate. They've had opportunities and situations that I didn't have, right? And I can't... I'm not judged, but I can't compare their experiences to mine and expect that they understand that because that's not their reality, right? But what I do know is the setback and the human experience of setbacks is what I sought to teach them. So I always, you know, we had certain scenarios where I went, okay, you may not have economic setbacks that other people had. You may not live through a war. But what I want you to do is I want you to understand the process of working through hard things, you know? And so whenever our kids, you know, we always had the condition that, look, you can do it, but you're gonna play formal sport. I want you playing sport. I want you doing some kind of martial art. And I want you to do that to work through the challenges. And I don't, I'm not ever gonna talk to the coach to get you on the team. You're gonna have to work on it, on merit. And I believe in meritocracy a lot. You know, I believe in... personally preparing kids rather than protecting them. Because one day I'm not gonna be around and I can't protect them. So I wanted to be able to help them find their own personal power through challenge, setback and struggle. So that then could be applied to other areas. Because I knew it wasn't gonna be in the economic way that you and I were talking about, but it's gonna be somewhere else. And once you learn that as a life skill, that's transferable.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, yeah. You know, the argument the other side of the argument or adding to what you just said, which is 100% true, I believe, which is like the human condition and the human psychological and physiological reaction of response to stress is going to be the same for our kids than it was for us. And as and as for our parents, our parents, the only difference was the environment, the circumstances that created that physiological response to setbacks or fear, anger, whatever.

Yeah, yeah

is just a different trigger. But I truly, 100% believe that the motion though, like the subjective emotions and triggers and the physiological responses to that is gonna be exactly felt the same way, but just in a different context. It's not one better than the other because the response is the same.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, totally, totally. It's the same principles, right? And this is when they, you know, in all these studies about flow states, they actually look at people and say, how do you get into flow? That state where you are in the zone, things are effortless, you're into fatigable. Well, what they found, right, is that if your skillset is met by something that doesn't. demand too much of you, you end up being bored. You don't actually get the best out of yourself. So if you've ever had a certain skill set and you played in a team that was a lot less skilled than you were, you pretty much default to the level of the team. You suddenly go, why am I playing so badly? When you actually apply against a competition or in a challenge that's way above where you are, that you get squashed, well, that suppresses your spirit as well, and that smashes you, and that's not what we're talking about. But flow has been shown that if your, if it's challenges is a little bit above where your skillset is, where you have to grow into that to embrace all parts of you to take on that challenge, that's when you get into flow, that's when you grow. And that to me is the whole process of the setbacks and graduated challenge to help you get better. It's kind of the resistance that you use in weights, right?

Yeah, it's the fine line between boredom and anxiety. And I believe that flow state is 4%. Like I think they actually measured it. It's about 4% higher. Yeah, yeah. So what I mean by 4% is like, the challenge has to be about 4% more than what you're already capable of doing. So it's like, 4% is not a lot, but it's enough, right? And why 4%, I think that's a really important number to think about is because it's just enough where it's...

Exactly. Yep, it doesn't have to be huge. Yeah, that's all it is. Right. And that's allowed to do that. So. Yep. Yep. Yep.

you're not gonna make it, but it's not unbelievable that you're not gonna make it enough. Do you know what I mean? Like, so it's like, you know, I can mean if I play basketball, it's like, they go, okay, now go slam dunk a basketball and to win a million. It's not believable, because I've never even touched the fricking rim. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, that's too unbelievable. So it's like that, so, but the 4%, that flow state is to get to that full state, it's like all the athletes are doing is challenging themselves about 4%.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And they may or may not make it, but because they tried, their level of achievement is just inching closer and closer. And that's how they get into that achievement state.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and the time that they don't make that, that's the setback, right? So remember very well, I can't remember which episode it might have been, one of these ones I went, okay, we're gonna be controversial in terms of everybody gets a prize. I think I might go for it here. When our kids were growing up, they exhibited a lot of sporting talent, right? And I was fortunate, that was my pathway. I don't think I've ever mentioned it to you. This is the pathway that I had.

Yes, exactly.

acceptance in Australia as a migrant kid through sport. So I worked out pretty quickly that, hey, you'll get accepted if you excel at a sport because you can be different culturally, we could segregate you for everything else, but if you can swing a bat, kick a ball, or punch harder than anybody else, you're in. So I worked that out very quickly. That was just a survival mechanism that I had. But when my kids were experiencing, you know, growing through the ranks, I knew that at some point,

Mm-hmm.

they were gonna come up against challenges with adults if they were gonna play cricket. So one of our eldest son was playing cricket and exceptionally talented guy. And I knew that at 12, 13, 14, which is the same age that I broke into senior went as well, I was bombarded with antagonism, basically intimidatory play to scare the kid out of it. And I developed this strength within me mentally. So I helped prepare my kid for that and my eldest son. And so I started preparing for it and started challenging him. And I started, even in the backyard, in the nets where we'd play cricket, which is the game of cricket, and started bowling deliveries aimed at his head. Now, you might look at this and go, geez, you're up for parent of the year award. But it wasn't that, it was about preparing him for that process. And guess what happens? He's 14 years old, he breaks into a senior team, he walks out to bat. the first ball he gets is a bouncer at his head and at 14 he hits the guy over the fence. Why? Because he was prepared for that. And to me, that showed me, I couldn't protect him because if he hadn't been prepared for that situation and the ball came and he wasn't prepared, he would have been hit. Whereas in that scenario, he was ready because he was prepared.

Yeah. Well, exactly. And I think that but that's the challenge that we have to put ourselves. And yeah, I get why that could be an unpopular thing. I mean, I'll share my side of things. I remember, like, I mean, it's a simple, it's not even in sport. It was like, I think it was like in Monopoly, you know, and like these kids games, we're playing Monopoly, or risk or one of those types of games. I'm like, I'm pretty competitive. But you know, I'll let my kids kind of like, I'm talking like when I say I'll let my kids like win, I'm talking when they were like six, right? So I'm not talking like now, but

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like I used to just like let them, you know, have a little bit of fun, but like, I'm still gonna win. I'm gonna beat you and you know, in chess or whatever. I might, and it's like, I know most people go like, there's no way, like you're so cruel. I'm like, oh, but at the same time, like I rather them learn how to lose, like, you know, and be upset with dad when they're younger because, you know, if I let them win, let them win, let them win. And all of a sudden I crush them, later on it's gonna be harder, I think.

100%. Yes. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Matt, I totally agree. I'm so glad you've said that because I used to do that too. Right. I used to actually, um, my wife, but then I go, can't you just let them win? Um, you know, every now and again, I go, listen, if they know that I'm dogging it so that they can win, they're going to be angry at me. And the proudest moment that my kids had was when they surpassed me and they've surpassed me in so many areas. Now it's not funny. I don't care, I don't mind that. My ego was never about my ego, it was about helping them through that process. Now I know it's gonna challenge a lot of people, right? This statement, but I'm okay with that because what I was trying to help teach our kids was, hey, anything that you have, your esteem is linked to the fact that you achieved this on your own. It's not on me, it's on you. And imagine the skill sets and the esteem and the worthiness and the feelings of feeling good enough when they realize, hey, I... I lost and I lost and I learned something. I came back and I won. Ultimately that helps them more that it's not about a game. It's not about a game of Monopoly and beating your dad at it. It's not about hitting a ball over the fence for six. It's about what did I learn as a result of all the setbacks and all the challenges that I faced and who did I become?

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like when in the moment, like I love that moment when they say, I think it was chess for say, when they beat me in chess, like fair and square, and you're like, okay, I mean, it's like, and they have that good feeling because they know that, you know, it hasn't been an easy year, years for, for, you know, losing to dad all the time. And then finally they overcome you and it's like, yeah, it's, you know, like it's, it's, I think that's a great feeling to have.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It's playing the long game, it's challenging, but yeah, it's not a popular thought process and it's definitely not, but I think that the reality is what we're trying to do. Our intention isn't to win, our intention is to make our kids better by making sure that, of course we're trying to protect them, but at the same time, we're also making sure they protect for them the future, not just in that moment of their feelings at that moment. That's how I'm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and totally, I don't throw them to the lions, right? I basically, but what I'm actually trying, I always have tried to do is actually teach them the life skills that are, that are helpful along the way. So, um, there's two moments that I found Lauren's kids were really, really happy, um, about themselves as number one, where they can beat mom or dad on a board game or a game and number two, when they surpass them in height, that's kind of like their proudest moments. Have you ever noticed that where they're so happy with that?

Oh my daughter is very very close, very very close. We're talking like half an inch now.

Yeah, I saw photos of her. I thought, well, she's getting closer. She'll be challenging you very soon if she hasn't already.

Yeah, she's been flirting with that line for about a year now. She just stopped growing the last year and she's just like, ah, she's there with mom, with Karen. She's the same height, but like I got about half an inch and my hair helps too. I had that little bit extra.

I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. You are luck out in that one Lawrence. I can't, I just got to basically just rely on natural height because I've got no, I've got no. Yeah, that's the guy. Hey, the other thing I wanted to mention with regard to setbacks, right, is you talked about, we talked about the accepting the situation and have you ever come across that tool, the whole above the line, below the line?

Yeah. Yeah, well, you got me on natural height by a mile.

as a management tool? Yeah, right. I love this so much. And a lot of times, anytime we do work with teams or culture or organizations, we set this as a framework because, and we incorporate this in our family. These are kind of agreements we have with a lot of groups that are involved in. So if you imagine you've got a straight line, right? And you've got a section of three or four words above the line and three or four words below the line.

Yeah, but do remind me, I think...

Right, so below the line effectively is non-empowering states or behaviors. And so anytime a problem comes up, people go to denial, justification, blame, and reasons or excuses, right? So fundamentally as a mindset, when people go under the line, they're not actually setting themselves up for change. They're not actually setting themselves up for a lot of what we talked about. What did I learn in this?

Mm-hmm.

And above the line, and you can really look into this, we've done a lot of work with this with a lot of our teams, it's quite often a change, it totally changes how people go about life, right? So above the line, you've got things like you take ownership, you take accountability, you focus on results, those kind of empowering things, and through the process of questions, it brings you above the line. So we always have an agreement whenever there are setbacks. Okay, you might be disappointed, you might be bummed out, you're really disappointed that things worked out the way they are, will allow you a certain amount of time underneath the line. You might feel the pity party, you might feel sorry for yourself, you might feel wanna blame or whatever, but your onus is to get above that line really quickly. So what ownership can you take? What did you learn? What can you be accountable? How are you gonna use these results for something different? And to me, that's a really practical tool to... change the whole direction of a setback into something more empowering.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important to. So what I love about that is it's two things. Number one, it's the ability to be able to allow someone to go through the human process of emotions and then learn to like feel it through rather than just ignore it and just battle it and go like, I'm going to be above the line right off the bat. I think it's important because that's natural. We have to feel those feelings so we know what that feels like. Right? Um, like this whole podcast, Wabi Sabi, it's like, yeah.

Yep. Yep. Yeah, because if you truncate those feelings, yeah, if you truncate those feelings, it becomes a wound. So it's not actually, it doesn't allow you to cycle through that process.

Exactly. It would just come out somewhere else later on. Right. And so, you know, it's about being able to, to, to allow the process that, that feeling and, but there's a time limit, not a time limit, meaning like there's no time limit for any, depending on the setback, of course, but like, but there's a certain moment where you have to be able to make that mental switch and going, okay, enough is enough and we're going to start moving above the line. And that's something that I try to teach my kids with, like, you know, especially with my son, like oftentimes he just gets into this state.

Yeah.

and he's gonna hear this about this maybe like 10 years from now. So hopefully, he won't be too embarrassed about it. But like, you know, like he gets into the state where, you know, when something goes wrong, he just like his whole body posture is like, oh, like he just he's 11. Like, you know, he's a young kid, but he he makes the whole world know. Like he becomes a victim. And as a dad and, you know, as how I think and how you think, it's like it's one of the worst feelings you can see. It's like, oh, my God, like how, like why? Like, you know, but I know what he's doing and I know.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

But it's like, okay, I'm gonna let him go through that process. Right. But at some point I'm going to have to like, okay, enough is enough time to snap out of it and, and he, you know, no, he doesn't do it every time, but he's getting way better at it now. Like he's just getting way better to like, okay, I just got to like, now it's about changing that posture. Now it's about changing my mindset around this because, you know, inevitable, like the thing that's happening to them cause you to feel that that's not going away, right? It's like that thing is the thing. And so therefore

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, you're going to have to learn to like figure it out, you know, to navigate through that, that environment or situation. So being in that posture is really not going to help you. So like, it's, it's, it's a, I love that whole thing is it's about like, how do you get up above that line now? Because at some point like staying below the line is really not going to help you navigate this, in fact, it makes it a lot harder and worse.

Yeah, and at an intellectual level, that's a great tool. How do you teach it to an 11-year-old? That's a really hard tool, you know, and particularly with boys too, who generally will shut down. Part of the reason why we used to, as a family, go to football games every week.

Mm.

was to keep that connection and bond around one thing so that we could keep dialogue going. And it was really formative in those years. And I always found it was just amazing. So, you know, boys would want to go off and do their own thing, but we'd congregate on a Saturday afternoon watching a game and we all agree that our team was hard done by, or our team, all that kind of, but it kept dialogue and communication going. It was so invaluable, particularly for boys in that stage where they do, they just shut down, they don't communicate as well.

Yeah, nice. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And, and I remember once, you know, because our boys have always been around personal growth, they kind of know you sometimes trying to do it when you're trying to support them. And one, one, and so you've just got to be authentic about it without trying to be have an agenda. And I remember once, you know, we were we had to drive from Melbourne out to this game. It was like a hundred fifty, one hundred twenty K.

Yeah.

away game and my son was the goalkeeper and it was like eight o'clock in the morning in the middle of winter it was raining cold and he was the goalkeeper and our team got thumped 20-0 and my son yeah he was the goalkeeper and he was voted MVP that day on his team because had he not stopped 30 goals they would have got absolutely done even further.

Oh, right. Oh

So the ball did not go on the opposition in their half. So their goalkeeper, you know, basically the kids died of hypothermia. They haven't given them cold drinks because he's doing nothing for a whole game, right? And so the drive home was very interesting where they're going, you know, this kid at that stage is like, okay, you know, my steam is linked to, and as a goalkeeper, when you're getting 20 goals in the onion bag,

Oh my god. Yeah. He just stood there. Yeah. Yeah.

your esteem gets affected no matter what. So I've gone, how do I help him? How do I help him? How do I help him? So I've turned around and said, you know what, Sebastian, you played a really great game. You know, it was awesome to watch. You stopped so many goals. Yeah, I know you cop 20. You know, you, you learned so much. Your skills as a goalkeeper went up so much this game. That other goalkeeper, he's no better today than he was last week. Seriously. And he's just looked at me and gone, thanks for the pep talk, dad. I really appreciate it, but we got done 20 mil. Get real.

Hehehe

You know, that was me just trying to reframe it, but you know, like it's harder with boys, man, at that age, they'll call you out big time if they think you're trying to be having a gender or something like that and you know, that's the way it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, we got materials to come as my 11 year old boy is going to be starting growing up and as we navigate through his teenage puberty life for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Lawrence, I tell you what's really, really helpful is sometimes the most magical moments with them, particularly boys, if you try and initiate a conversation, they're not going to want to do it. How was school? Yeah. Yeah. They won't give you much, but if after the, if they've played hockey or basketball or soccer or footy or whatever, and you've picked them up and you're in the car waiting for them and they sit down, then you both looking ahead. Oh, you're looking ahead. They're looking ahead. I'll sometimes open up with gold. They'll open up with what's going on for them. They'll open up with their fears, doubts, uncertainty, and their magical moments. And you can't turn them on and off. I tap like you want as an adult. So that's what I learned. Hey, I've got this great tool. It's called Above the Lime Bevel. They're like, I don't care. We got done, 20-nil. All right. But when the moments, when they're ready, it's magic.

Mm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now I agree. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to those moments for sure. And, uh, and, and that's the thing, like with magical moments and setbacks in people's life, it's exactly the same, right? It's like for everybody, it's like, you have this ability to be able to have that. Um, you know, you can, you can make that into a really great lesson for you or a great experience that you can learn from. And, and, and it's for me, I don't know what some lessons that you learned from your setback, but for myself, it's that whole thing about

Thank you.

you mentioned about Loloca's control, like I recognize that there are certain moments that there are three things, so how I kind of put it into three buckets in any given moment in time, which is, one bucket is that there are things that I have full control over, okay? Like any decision I make that it's in my control, that's in my control. And the second thing is things I have influence on, which means I can influence it, but I don't actually have the fullest control over that. So which means, for example, I might have influence on you, Jim, over what I tell you, but I have no. control of what you're going to do next, right? I can influence maybe, you know, with, with words or communications or, but I can't force you to do something because I don't have full control. I can control what I say or do at any given moment, but I can't control how you decide, but I may have influence on it. But then there's the third element, which is, which is the most important is there are things in this world that we have no control over the weather, the environment that we live in government decisions, whatever, like all these things are, you know,

Yep. Yeah.

are outside of our control. And if you put the things that you're dealing with, situation in either one of those three buckets, I think it's important once you start to recognize that there's whole, you're worrying about things that's not within your control, have no control over whatsoever, you're just wasting your time. And it's way better to just focus on the things you can control and influence. And if you spend most of the time doing that, then life is good.

And that's probably the best way to do it. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I reckon I'm going to finish up now by basically taking what you just said exactly and saying that's the big thing that I've learned over time is focusing on what's within my control and what's outside of my control. So if it's outside of my control, the learning has been the set, is a surrender, that's the learning, it's been surrender the process. If it's within my control and I've had a setback, I've asked myself three questions, did you do, did you give your best? what did you learn in the setback, and is this still a priority and important to you? And out of those three questions, I will work out how do I regroup, reload, or whether I need to change that or let that go because it no longer serves me anymore. And that's the byproduct of running into many walls at high speed over a long time, and then eventually getting to the point going, there's gotta be another way, man. I can't keep doing this the same way. what question or what thing that I need to do differently. So that's probably my takeaway out of this for people as well.

Yeah. Well, John Wooden, a great, one of the great basketball coach who had, you know, always said that, you know, a loss is never a loss unless, unless you didn't learn a lesson from it or something to that effect. And I think that's exactly, you know, what life is about. And I think, you know, these setbacks are, are not losses. If you learn something from it, it's a lesson. And that's the L. And I think that if we can kind of move through life, with minimizing the losses and increasing our lessons and, and then also translate those to wins.

Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep.

you're going to have a great life. And I think that's, you know, it's hard to play the long game in the moment as we discussed, but you know, navigate through your emotions and the quicker you're able to get above the line to transform into a lesson so that you can go after your next win. I think that is the name of the game. And if you get to do that for the rest of your life, you now get to have an enjoyable life. And that I feel like it's a good life to live. And that's what we're trying to, you know, help everyone kind of create.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Awesome. Awesome. Well, really enjoyed our podcast recording today, Lawrence. And thank you once again. Love hanging with you with these podcasts. I look forward to our next one next time.

Alright guys, everybody so you are here on YouTube and on every podcast platform that you might be listening to. So please, if you can give us a review, that'd be great. Give us a thumbs up or you know, either leave a comment. And most importantly, just share this stuff with someone who you think might need to hear this message and in this podcast. We look forward to it until next episode. Jim will speak to you then. Take care.

Yeah, bye bye.