Transition is HELL

Welcome to another episode of Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. And there's no better way to talk about, you know, the art of imperfection. When it comes to the topic that we're to be talking about today, Jim just kind of threw this out at me and I thought this is perfect because this is exactly what imperfection looks like because we're the embodiment of imperfection when it comes to this. So Jim, I'll pass the ball to you to kind of set us up for today's topic.

Yeah. Thanks, Lawrence. I, it was one of those when Harry met Sally's like, had me at a hello. When I just started talking about his concept was like, no, let's go. Let's go. Let's start and talk about it. But I,

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Wait, I don't have to pause there. Come on, Jim. You're mixing analogies. When Harry met Sally is the orgasm scenes. You're mixing Jerry Maguire. We had you have a hello. Come on. Like you're mixing analogies here. This is the imperfection. This is the exact imperfection that we need to see in this because it's not about being perfect. But our wives would be very disappointed.

Have a- Oh Jerry Maguire, sorry, Actually I'm only mixing up your spot on. I am so, oh okay, well it's Jerry Maguire. Okay. Okay. Thanks for setting me straight. Yeah. Thanks for setting me straight. Okay. So Jerry Maguire, Jerry Maguire. All right. Yeah. Thanks for that clarification. um I have been sitting in this whole change versus transition thing. And I've been reading this book recommended to me by a guy I'm working with at the moment.

that you mixed up the rom-com. Yeah.

called Managing Transitions by William Bridges. And it's been so profound. said to you, Lawrence, I reckon this is what we've been dealing with for the last four years, both of us particularly. And we created a chain. No, no, no, but it's actually when we deep dive into this, it's actually going to be really helpful because, and I'll let you know of some of the insights that I've had, not only just in the last couple of weeks, but really over time, because...

We're not emitting it though, man. We're not emitting it.

managing transitions, lot of times people resist change and it's not so much the change that's scary. It's what it means, what it creates, what the physiological, emotional changes and transitions that it changes, you know, where you feel like there's a perceived loss of something. And, you know, William Bridges talks about this really well, cause he talks about three distinct stages. He talks about the old experience and life and identity and all that kind of stuff. And you have to go through a uh, ego death, or you have to go through a really transition period. But then you get into this middle period where the place of no thing where there's not, there's things don't have formal or things change. Things have changed, but you haven't necessarily adapted to that change. And you might be in between a new transition or a new beginning, but you're not quite, you're kind of at that scenario where you've left and you can't really go back and you're not quite at that new beginning stage. So it's that middle page stage where your feet can't touch the bottom. and don't really know where you are. So that's really what I wanted to open it up. It's brutal.

Oh, that's It's hell. I'll just admit it, it's freaking hell. as you're talking, it's just like, I just had all these flashbacks of moments of those, like I know I'm in one right now. I feel like I'm actually finally at the tail end of it. But I call it hell because I remember like when the sort of the big moment of this was when I transitioned, was thinking about trans.

Yeah.

Actually, I was in practice, I was a chiropractor at the time. I was relatively successful. I didn't realize how successful I was in comparison because I was all in practice and stuff. But what I realized was I wasn't satisfied. And I spent five years doing other things. I'll give you an example. I was learning how to set up websites. I was learning how to sell courses. And I was like, doing everything, was piecing all these things together. I was in all of these online marketing gurus. I was in that phase, I bought every single product. was always during that launch period, I brought every single product and I was trying to figure out how to create websites and do all that stuff. And I was in that period for five years. And the reason why I know it's for five years, because I remember I was talking to my coach at the time, Jeff Spencer, and I remember saying distinctly, of all the conversations we had, there was one conversation I said, I'm like, I feel like I've wasted five years of my life, you know, and not getting anywhere. And he said something really profound to me that I still remember, which he said, he goes, you didn't waste five years. You were just preparing for five years. And that shifted like the way I thought about it. And it was so true because once I took action towards that, in that transition, that's when I got into coaching and, I actually had all the raw education that I would have had to, that gave me a head start, a jump, because I actually learned how to do all that. Not that I ever built a website on my own, not that I ever like had to create, because I actually hired a team to do it, but I knew what I had to do or had to hire the right people to do those things that I wouldn't have had. I would have had to start from scratch if I made that decision in my life. And that's the five year period. And I feel like, you know, now it's four years in. I feel like I'm sort of at that edge of, all right, maybe it takes time. I don't know.

Maybe there's that circle, but you you raise a really good point because I was talking to someone earlier on today about this in a call and there's this perception that sometimes there's this linearity of things that start and then you can cross off on them. But you and I both have known that this process has been one of exploration and unfolding and metamorphosis to a degree, because it's about going, going, what is the next. step and level look like. Now we've both had opportunities we could have launched from one thing straight to the other. Kind of like when people go, there's a rebound relationship. They break up and they jump straight into a new one and they haven't had time to integrate and to really think about who they are at their very essence. Right. So, but what I was talking to this, to this person about earlier today was exactly what you said is when you're building a home, a lot of energy and effort goes into pre-wiring if you're building it and

Ah, yes. Yep, great analogy.

And you see it all behind the scenes and it's not connected and you can't turn the power on. You turn it and doesn't work, but the pre-wiring is there. And the analogy I drew was imagine you've started something and you haven't got anything tangible to show with it, but you're at sevens out of tens already. All that pre-wiring is done. So the moment you decide things kind of fall into this natural rhythm and they seem to be falling into place really quickly, but it's because you've done the work that prepared you for that you had to do anyway that you didn't know at the time was going to be essential. That's how I see that as explanation of what you just said.

No, that's a perfect analogy. And I love that. I that thought. You know, the plumbing and electric and wiring. And I think that's exactly what happens to a human being, right? So for most people don't know, like between the ages of zero to two, you are basically, you form the most amount of neurons at any time in your entire life. Like you're just really, your body's creating millions and millions of neurons. ah Not for like random purposes, because they want you to kind of like be access to the world. But between ages two and 10, I believe, is when you start pruning. And so pruning meaning like you don't need all those neurons because your brain wouldn't be able to handle it. So you start pruning the ones that you no longer need. So which means that the developmental age of zero to two is very important, obviously, to provide to make sure the neurons are growing. But then between two and 10 is also very important because what the... what you have done, like what your parents allowed you to do or what you did between two and 10 becomes instrumental to who you are gonna be in the future because the more you, let's say, I don't know, let's just say we learned a language at a young age. Maybe you learned how to play basketball at a young age. You also did running and you do all these different types of motor activities. Your brain goes, oh, like we need those, so let's enhance those, strengthen those. But if you never used a certain neurons, like they'll say, I don't know, things that you don't actually do, that you start like piano, like same piano, you never learned how to piano, piano, it will start pruning that part of the brain and those neurons. And so that age of two to 10 is so vitally important because the more you do any particular activity, the more strengthening of those neurons, the less you do of any particular activity, you'll start to prune those away. It doesn't mean you can't relearn them, but it means that you have to start a little bit more from scratch when you get older. And that's why I think either is one of my belief is that's why I think learning a language when you're when you learn it younger is a lot easier than is learning later doesn't mean like again doesn't mean you can't learn it just becomes harder. It's just like you don't you're not utilizing that part of the brain neurons. So I feel like that's the setup here is almost like we you what you're doing is between two and 10 or just kind of pruning the ones that we don't do but all of a sudden but that's the problem is because as an adult when we're transitioning we're usually when we're transitioning sometimes we're transitioning to something completely different and new. It's so hard to like feel like I got to go back to scratch in a way because you've spent all these years perfecting and master the one thing that you've known for your entire life, which has created your identity.

Yeah. And, and exactly. And I think that that was the challenge that I, that I, that I've identified particularly the last few weeks for myself, because I've been intentional in certain things, at least I thought I was. And I remember I've got a spiritual coach that I check in with from time to time. And she was telling me that you really had a point in life where you really want to, you know, for you, it's like you pick what you really want to do and everything else is either going to be a hell yes or no. And I. totally have taken that on board, but then I didn't know, well, how do I find that? You know, do I just sit around passively, wait for it or do I explore it? And so it was only in the last few weeks that I've just, you know, started working with my old coach again. That helped me was to try and get to the essence of who I am and why I do what I do and how I view the world. And from there, start from that, from that as a base belief. I always. No, I always had the perspective of always get clarity on values, et cetera. But it just, I was just able to get another level of distinction for me in the last few weeks that really helped me understand that. And to your point about those five years, you know, a lot of the times the part of me, us people who want some kind of, um, clarity of where things are, he's going to be threatened by the period where there's the place of no thing, where there's no formal structure and it's actually under construction. Because there's times where an idea will come and someone says, you should do this and you go, yeah, okay. And you. Hit your wagon to that idea, which sounded like a great idea at the time. And it was a good outlet and expenditure of energy, but it's only after a while you go, hang on, why did I even do that? It's because I may have been looking for something to do to engage that energy. If you're normally a person who's a go-go-go, you have period of unstructured time. It feels really destabilizing for a while. And I can certainly acknowledge that in myself over the last few years.

I think most of us are wired for certainty. the reality of the uncertainty of the future scares a lot of people. And hence, we kind of live in this world. mean, like, if you take it the time that we're living in right now, with the uncertainty of the war, or the uncertainty of AI, and what the future is going to bring, and for our children, like that fear sits unconsciously or consciously, pretty much in our psyche at the moment. And which means that like, it's because we really don't, things are accelerating so fast, especially in AI, that we don't know whether or not this is a good or bad thing. Because we don't, no one can really tell us how this is gonna turn out. And because we don't know, even the experts don't know, we're just guessing. And because no one has certainty, it's fearful. And so we're moving hesitantly in the future. Now. Not everybody's like that. There are a few people that loves that uncertainty. They love and they crave, if anything, that uncertainty and that thrill, but I don't think most people are wired like that. And I think if anything, that's almost trained. You almost gotta be trained to do that. And so what I mean by that is that I hear, I see a lot of people ah that, like say in startup world, who have done startups and stuff, they're almost like wired in a way.

Hmm.

to go whatever first project or first company I start isn't gonna be the project I'm gonna end up with. I know that going in, right? And they know that whatever product, they're just gonna push a product out and then test it and then find out and then repivot. And they know that this is gonna be like multiple iterations where most of us who are starting something is like, no, we need to be certain that this next thing has to be certain. Like that's how we typically, because most of us didn't come from that type of mentality. We didn't come from that world. um And so if you don't have experience of that, you tend not to, you wanna be certain of that transition to making sure it works rather than having uh the, you you rather stay safe and not move physically or whether it be your job or career, because that's the known. That's, know, like this is the enemy that you know. And that unknown is too scary and not many people make the leap and this is why we kind of get stuck often.

Yes. Yep. Yep. And, and, uh, totally, totally resonate with that. I, I found that in myself, the uncertainty externally that was going on was manageable. If I had a level of, and I have a level of internal alignment and certainty itself, it's when I am less than at that point is when the events take externally have an impact and effect. And I think that that's what. I've come to understand too is that AI uh and geopolitical change at the moment are an external event that's creating change in the way we look at things and the way we view the world, opportunities, life, et cetera. So that change has been thrust upon us. But what's happening for everybody is there's a period of transition where we're adapting to that. And this is where all our latent fears, doubts, uncertainties are all going to come through. Will I be able to provide for my family? is my job going to be obsolete? All those kinds of things will come up. But to me, that's where I've now understand that even clearer that we've, and I've been sitting in that period in large part because of our own doing. We created a change that brought us into environment and geographically we got a change, but emotionally and physiologically, but, but identity wise, we, still been in flux for a period of time. And now we've been doing stuff. Don't get, don't get me wrong, but there's the part that you and I are talking about. That's like, know, that you know, that you know, and, and neither of us have been able to say, right, that's definitive. That that's, going to hang my hat on that exactly. I'm going to live on that because there's still a variation of, of what's going on, but now it's coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and totally. And then I think that that's.

Like we're in the dating period. We're like sort of in the dating. I feel like we're in the dating period. You're just dating different ideas and you're not committing to anyone.

It's it now that I can look back on it, gosh, it, it's been frustrating, but now I can look back and go, well, that was exactly the right thing to do because it wasn't, I didn't want to go on something that I wasn't fully committed to. So effectively I've just carried down the things that, uh have ticked over focused on that, but have worked on self to find that transition, that stability internally, which I feel like you said, you're coming through it. I feel like I've had pockets where I've gone. Yep. That's clarity, but over the last particularly. three, four weeks, I've found that more, more solid than normal. But the irony is that that's where there's been most geopolitical change. And I've actually probably felt more calm about that because I felt like internally, I was like, okay, I've got my own sense of bearing more solid than it had been over a time.

Yeah, because I mean, you're absolutely right that a lot of these things are externally produced and there's nothing we can actually do about it. It's more our ability to be able to adapt to the world while we're kind of like, unfortunately, it's kind of weird, right? I feel like sometimes like I'm the only person who's living in this world. I feel like I'm in a video game where like, you know, everybody's just like, you know what mean? Like you're just everybody's an NPC and I'm just like, I'm living in my world.

Yeah, no. Yeah.

And I'm just moving around this world. I'm navigating through it, but realizing it like that's not how this world works It's just like, you know, we're all interrelated and everybody's living on their own little worlds, right? So everybody's have their own little issues and my problems is my problems and it's not necessarily uh It may or may not be related to yours But at the same time like your fears are your fears and my fears are my fears and it doesn't take away one's worse than or better than the other and I think I think that's um that type of the mentality is it's quite hard because you're navigating not only your internal world, but you're also navigating the world that's actually happening to you. Like these are things are you're not under control. So for example, the impact of the war, um the impact of the acceleration of AI, like that's all impacting all of us at the same time, but at different rates. And we all have different opinions on how that's affecting us. And we also have different abilities to adapt to as well. And I'm talking, of course, like the physical ability, the mental ability, but also like the financial ability to be able to navigate some of these circumstances. I mean, if I even, you know, some of the news I hear about, you know, for example, if you're like living in Marimar or if you're working in Pakistan or, know, you're in a very different situation when things are, you know, not going well in terms of like, you mean, can't get fuel or taking hours to kind of get fuel. Like that's a very different situation than us come trying, huh, like, should I, should I go on my holiday this week? Cause I don't want to drive and waste petrol, you know? So it's everybody's like, we're not really I'm not saying that's good or bad. It's just that we just get stuck oftentimes in our little world is that our problem is for us to solve and no one's going to come and save it. And what happens is that we got to be mature enough to be able to go like, this is problem that I need to kind of handle. I need to get a grip of it and I need to kind of figure out what it is. But you're actually right. Like I feel like that dating scenario is actually true. It's just that I just haven't found the right one when it comes to like an idea that I really want to. kind of gravitate to like, feel like I got that now. Like I feel like I'm working on, feel like I'm committing to it, but who knows, right? You know, like I'm sure we've all been in relationships where you, you you spend like, you know, a good six months or two years sometimes. And you realize I'm like, oh, like she's the wrong one, right? And this idea may be the wrong one, but right now I'm just having fun. I'm actually enjoying what I'm doing. You know, I was telling my wife the other day, I was like, for the first time in a very long time, I actually don't feel stressed on a regular basis. Not that I was, but I just feel like I'm, you know, things are happening, but I'm like,

He does, he does.

I actually really see, I don't know where this gonna pass, gonna lead, I still don't see a throwaway, but I see like I'm actually enjoying my day to day. Like I'm really enjoying being creative, I'm enjoying building something right now. And it's a fascinating world of creating these, with the tools that we're beginning right now. And it's actually kind of fun and exciting.

Yeah.

uh It may not turn out to be anything, but I'm excited to kind of test it.

Yeah, I think you've realized exactly what I'm talking about is because I feel that as well too, in terms of it, there's, there was, there's just been that underlying sort of question that I've been sitting in and, and, and, and sometimes what you, what you sometimes realize is that, okay, you know, the gap, there's a perception that that's when I'm on that other side of it, everything will work out and everything's clear. And I'm just in lag and, I sometimes buy into that. But a lot of the time, particularly in the last little while, was, it w was focusing more on the gap than, uh, you know, like I don't have clarity. I'm not really sure what it is. And like you just said, it's like, just be okay to explore staying curiosity, which is what I talk to everybody about. And that's, you find your own way. And I think that that's what I've been doing, um, consciously, and it's just been really helpful, you know? So The whole, the whole idea of, he said, what, what we do with that part, we, get in and explore our ideas. Okay. See you later. Let's talk to you next week. But in the meantime, we're trying different things and sometimes they don't feel they felt right at the time. And you suddenly get another not right. And I'll give you an example. Like do you have an event in, uh, in a month's time? You know, I'm not going to date the time we were out, but it was due to be about months on that two weeks ago. Um, you know, we'd had registrations for it. And I just said to myself, I'm just not feeling it. I just don't, I'm just not feeling it at all. Um, we can hustle and get it, uh, sold out, but I just don't want to do it. I just don't want that to have to do that. So we called it, we called the event. Um, you know, uh, and I felt relieved finally enough, not because I don't want to do the work, not because, but I just had the sense that I'm just going to be swimming upstream to get it done muscle through that.

Hmm

And so I had to sit behind that was like, it, it that it's not aligned or is it just that you just, you're just more discerning in terms of where you put your energy and time.

I congratulate you on that because it's not easy. Like, you know, for anybody in your position to be able to call an event or call off anything that, you know, that people have already signed up for or, and just listening to your gut, like that's not easy, right? So like, commend you for that, first of all. And secondly, I think we don't do that enough to kind of listen to ourselves to, you know, despite that it's going to not hurt others, but it impacts others, right? And you and I are people that don't like to inconvenience other people.

Hmm.

And we will probably do anything. We're more people that tend to do things for others than for ourselves. And in this case, you know, like, easily, you could have created a narrative in your own head to go, no, I need to push through, right? I need to push through to just challenge myself. But when you're not feeling it, it's also sometimes you need to listen to that voice, right? You need to listen to that. And I think we talked about this last week when we talked about the intuition, like the intuition of just being able to go like, this is not feeling right, you know, despite

Yeah.

everything's telling me that this is not the right call, or it might be everything is saying this right call, but your intuition tells you it's the wrong call, and you have to follow that intuition sometimes, and that's hard to do.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. is. And I think that because a lot of it, like I've now canceled two events in the last six months, way, way earlier than I had to, but I wanted, because a lot of these people like you, people are flying in from other sides of the world for an event and you don't want to muck them around. know, you don't want to. So We've canceled those events at our personal cost purely because it just didn't feel aligned correctly. And, know, I felt more at peace doing that than, pushing through that. So that's, that was, that was a thing. And interestingly, I've been sitting in it I've been saying no to more things, more invitations. I've had invitations to a whole lot of different things and they're kind of like, you know, I said, you, there's the old part, you've got the middle ground and then you've got the new part. The only way you're to get to the new part. is if you start saying no to the old stuff and the low hanging fruit is there and I could do that any, anytime, but that's the intention. That's the discipline. That's the part for me where I'm sitting in it to just go, I don't need that self validation and certainty. So I have to go back in there because the moment that I feel like I'm back there, I'm trapped there.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like the whole analogy of like, you can't steal second while your foot is still on first. And you know, that old baseball analogy, and you're absolutely right. And I think I told you maybe a couple of weeks ago or maybe a month ago where I said like, I decided not to take any more clients. like, that was like more of an intuitive, like it was more of a decision in my head, even though I've been thinking about it for almost a year. but like, you know, you're so scared of what that's going to look like. And but

Hmm.

ever since that decision, at least mentally in my head, I've been more productive. Like it was almost like, cause I let go of that, needing to and actually allow me the freedom of time to actually go focus on something else rather than trying to keep that alive. um And that's been, you know, it's been amazing to see, I mean, who knows what's going to turn out, but it is that whole transition. remember, you know, going back to the five year thing, I remember when I was registered as a chiropractor, when I stopped practicing, I was registered for five years after my last practice, my last patient that I ever saw. um But I kept registering because I'm like, you just never know, right? My dad always kind of keep your doors open. But after the five year mark was like, go, hmm, okay. We're getting to a point where I haven't really practiced and I can probably renew, but it's probably not a good idea from a registration point of view that I extend this any further. And I had to call it and that was such a massive identity shift. um that I had to like let go, even though I let go five years ago, but I didn't really officially let go. So there was like, I'm still hanging on a little bit, you know? I still like, what if this isn't working? I always go back. And I made a decision to not renew. And that was a, like no one knew, like I didn't say anything to anybody. It was just like, there's something in me just going, I'm not renewing. And so now all of a sudden, like I basically told myself to go, no, like you've been all in for this, on this coaching thing for five years now, and it's time. Like you, got to. uh

Yeah. Yeah.

Like you gotta let go of that past. But it was like that final official, like, well, I didn't sign it. So therefore it's like almost like a signed off and going like, no, I'm no longer. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I still remember like APRA sending me an email like a year later. It's like, you can no longer call yourself a doctor. I'm like, I never call myself a doctor. But it's just like one of those things is like, you're no longer a doctor. like, I'm retired. Like, so whatever. Anyways, it was just one of those weird, weird moments. Uh, but it's like that, but it does, it's like, I remember going for like personal development stuff. There was like,

The official unsigning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There's these energies that hold you back, like these tentacles that draw energy from you in the past. And you almost have to like psychically, like I know it seems kind of weird, but psychically, like learn to cut them off, to move forward. And it's not a physical thing, it's like a more of a psychological, emotional, empowering, spiritual thing that holds you to your old past that doesn't allow you to go forward. But it takes time, and there's no rush.

Yeah. Yeah.

in this and I think, you know, so don't be listening to this and going, you have to like do this immediately. But no, it's like for us, it's taking years for us to do this. So it's just something I'm still working through.

Yeah. And, and in that time, like you mentioned about being brutal, it is, it really is because that's when you start to question yourself. You question if I made the right decision, is this going to work out in every, every area that you're, starting a new venture, a new venture. You know, it could be, as you said, in a business sense, you know, when you're, when you have had validation and certainty in a certain thing, you want to start introducing a new product line or you're starting to a new service and you're not really sure you make a capital investment. in a particular area of your business and going, how long is the lag time before I see some outcome and results you get that it's an identity. It's it's a similar thing. It's, it's, it's the case. And even, you know, that happens whenever you decide that you want to stand for something different, or there's a merger and acquisition and you take over people. And I think the big thing that I learned in reviewing the work that I've done the last few weeks, uh, is And this is the thing that I realized I wanted to ask you about it is that because I can do change quickly, I sometimes take for granted that I can adapt to something quicker than people around me. so like it terrifies other people. Like if you could go, right, done, let's go. And it terrifies the daylights out of people. if you have.

Mm-hmm.

You know, whenever an old sporting ground gets basically knocked down, they're redeveloping the people who were weak in, weak out, uh, spectators that come in, do that one, a piece of the, the, the, the seats, uh, for, because that locks in an old memory and, and, and, so that's what I realized I probably didn't do. didn't honor the goodbye or the ceremonial see you later of that identity, which bought it kind of into the middle period for a while. So that's what. led me to feeling a little bit in one camp and another. And I remember in a previous podcast that we had that you mentioned that the people who struggle the most when they move are the people who aren't all in the ones who go, I'm a little bit in my previous country. So you want to, you want to expand on that because I, I think there's a lot that you could talk about there.

Yeah, so let me kind go back to the one point you mentioned about like didn't honor. I wonder what that means to you because does that mean like other people like you didn't honor? Okay.

No, no, just myself. Like, because, you know, like not, under other people. No, not at all. was really just acknowledging how big a shift that was and stay in. Hey, that was awesome. That's great. And getting closure on it, you know, because like I said to you and I both established right now that, um, on a whim, we can not even on a whim, but on a, okay, I'm going stuff and I'm going to other side of the world. We can do that, but there's repercussions of that. You know, like now you've got, you've got kids, right? And they've got friendship groups and whatever. So if you suddenly say we're going to, you know, anybody's listening, you know, you, you've just come back from Japan. If you just decided I'm going across to Japan right now and you, you, you're clear in your mind, Karen's cleaning your mind, but what about the kids? What about their social networks? There's going to be repercussions and, and ripple effects of that. That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think the more grounded um you become, the more harder those roots are to unearth, I guess. um I'll give you an example. I remember when I first took on my first associate in Perth, um and I was debating whether I should buy this car. It was like this convertible. And I've never had a convertible, obviously never had a convertible in my life. And, you know, me in Canada, I'm like, oh, this would be like... the quintessential of, you importance of like, of Australian, right? It's just like being in a sunshine, sunny country and drive a sports car. Like, this is awesome. No kids to, she was a Toyota MR2. It was like two seater, no boot, nothing, right? And so my, remember my, uh my principal, like my, boss said, goes, yeah, you should definitely go buy it. And I'm like, okay. So I actually did. And I was always wondering like, why did he, you know, convince me to go buy it? And I realized, you know,

I'm going to try.

He was pretty smart in a way because he knew psychologically he wanted this me to stay and so the only one one thing for me to keep me staying is to put more roots down buy a house in Perth buy a car in Perth like the more roots I planted the harder it is for me to leave and he was right I mean, you know sure it might have been manipulative or whatever but like and and I kind of learned a lesson from like the outside afterwards to realize I'm like, yeah, is harder. It is harder when you're the more rich you planted like it is very difficult to unearth. And because I think we've done it enough times, like you and I, like the moves that we've done, that we kind of kept soils loose in a way. Like, so we never really fully grounded. Yeah. And so we can definitely switch on time. However, you had different circumstances. you got, know, not that when I moved from Australia, I had kids as well, but they were younger. It was definitely, their roots weren't rooted yet. You know, and this time they're different. They're in high school now.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah.

and their roots are definitely more rooted. And so it becomes more challenging. it does become hard. And I think if you don't replant, so this is the, if you don't replant into your new identity and give it its time to, because if you move transplant a plant from like one area to another, if you don't give it the time and the nurturing to allow it to settle into new environment, it's not gonna take, it's not gonna survive. And so I think that your question earlier was like, when, you know, what I see in people, when they move to say Portugal, we'll use this as an example. If they are kind of like wondering whether or not they should or shouldn't be here coming here, guaranteed they'll be gone within two years. All right. Cause they're not fully engaged into the community, not fully embracing what's available here. I remember when I was going through that decision-making back in Australia, I had like a mastermind group that I was working with.

Totally, totally.

and that I was part of, and I remember bringing this up. And I was debating whether I should go or sell it. a few people suggested, why don't you just keep the house? Keep the house, go to a porch, go and see if you like it. And I resisted intuitively, I was just like, no, that's not the right thing to do. Because if I do that, not really, I always have a backup plan. you know, I'm just keeping this for later. And it was just not the right call. And I didn't, I actually sold. And then that feeling of just like letting go, well, we got nothing, we have nothing now. We get like literally removed all roots, we're burned the boats and we're gone and we're not coming back. um And I mean, sure, like we can, we got a passport to go back, but we're not, have nothing, we have to rebuild. So it requires us another transplant. So I think like the people that I actually had someone reach out to me last week.

You burn the butt. uh

thinking about moving here from the States. And I talked her through it. I just talked her through it. Like if you're gonna do it, like you have to do it this way. You can't do it half, you gotta consider, you know, go all in and it may not be right for you. I'm not saying that it's right for everybody, because there are definitely certain things that, you know, that we don't like about this place, but it's, but there's so many great things about it too and the advantages. So it's about understanding, like, are you willing to live with those consequences? And I think oftentimes is that if you don't let go of the past, if you can't let go of that identity, it's very difficult. But most people hear that and go like, I need to forget my identity. No one ever said that. No one ever said that you have to let go. Let go doesn't mean you forget about it. I still see myself as a Canadian. I haven't been there for like 25 years, right? I see myself as an Australian. I don't plan to be living there anytime soon.

Yep. Yep.

Like if anything, know, people ask me, like I identify more as an Australian and then a Canadian. So the Canadians are gonna be like, what are you talking about? But you gotta remember, I've lived in half my life in both countries. So the most recently biased one is gonna be Australia. And I feel more connected to Australia, you know, than I do Canada. And so, but it doesn't mean that I forgot about them. It doesn't mean that I ignore them. You know, I don't, like I've never lived in China, but I'm Chinese in background. I don't forget about who I am. It's just that I, it's not. I honor it, but the same time, I'm looking towards the future. Maybe I'm different. But what I'm saying, letting go doesn't mean forget. just means that I have to, acknowledging what you're saying, acknowledging that was my old identity, and that's, I am who I am because of that experience, good or bad, but I can't change that, but I can change who I am now and also in the future. And so I need to take whatever I am now to move towards the future.

Yeah, exactly.

utilize the experience I had in the past.

Yeah, that's a good distinction because that's exactly what it's not the perception of a loss. It's more letting go is actually releasing the attachment to that specific identity, geography, location, circumstance, whatever it was to allow me us, we to move into the next phase. Because if you bring that with you, it gets very, very difficult. can't strap. your own house in Australia and bring it with you across to Portugal. You have to let that go and appreciate the experiences and the wonderful times you had there, seeing your kids grow to allow you to build a new life somewhere else, wherever you're going. So that's the goal.

Yeah. Well, and that's the stage for things like, because if you think about, you know, a lot of people when it comes to, you know, their life and their transporting and transitioning in life is that they, oftentimes hold on to their old identity. Like perfect example is like Americans coming here or Australians coming here. It doesn't really matter what the national, but they come into a different country with a totally different culture. And I still remember saying this, like I did this when I went to Australia. I was like, Whoa, what do mean they don't do that here? Right? so like, you're like, wow, like that's, you find it foreign because you are the foreigner, right? And you're like, what do mean that that doesn't happen? And like, that's so silly. Why don't they do A, B, and C? And you start criticizing it, but not taking a step back and go, you're the foreigner. you're the one who is the alien to their culture. And just because you think your culture is better,

Yeah.

in terms of A, B, and C doesn't necessarily mean you need to impose them onto that. And I think those people have the most challenging things when it comes to adopting to a new fertile ground is realizing like, you can't impose um your ideals into a society that had its original ideals. If anything, it's the other way around. It's like, yeah, your ideas may be better, but reality is that if I'm gonna adopt here, I need to adopt like their realities and what matters to them.

Yep.

I think, you know, and it's still silly when you think about the, mean, the first thing that comes to mind, I'm like, why don't we do certain Christmas things in Australia? Well, because it's freaking summer, you know, like, you know, like you don't have those same.

Yeah. I now get Christmas carols. I now get the whole dashing through the snow, but when it's 40 degrees on a hot Australian day, the last thing you want to be doing is putting a hot roast on and putting, you know, it's exactly right. It's got to be, it's got to be appropriate to your circumstances.

Yes. Yeah, and I think that that's where people kind of like, because they can't let go. And this is like, that's an example. And it seems so silly, right, which is just letting go of certain cultures or certain expectations. But if you can't let go, you're not gonna be able to adapt because you're so holding on to and that's the perfect example of what happens in transition careers and businesses is because you're so stuck on like the old ideas of your old identity or your old career, and that you're not willing to maybe let go some of those. to adapt new ones and the new way of working. And I think that the perfect bridge here is like, is what's happening right now with artificial intelligence. Like, I believe, is, again, this is just my belief and it may not be yours, Jim. Like, I believe that AI is gonna transform this world in a way that we're not gonna recognize in five years' time. And so, which means is that, like, I have nothing, I can't stop it, you can't stop it, most of us can't stop it. So, we either can go,

Yeah.

man, back in the good old days, we shouldn't do this, whatever, but it's it's happening whether or not we like it. So I may as well learn to embrace and understand the changes so I can actually have the impact of the future, which means like at least where it can be directed versus um just being on this train without even knowing it and being a hostage to it.

Yeah, I think, I the, the, the, the, you ever hear someone saying, look, I don't like change. Well, the reality is it's a universal principle. There's change with you like it or not. You know, you get onto your computer and overnight there's been an upgrade. You know why? Because it's a subtle nuance and you don't, when it happens regularly and you're comfortable with subtle changes, you don't even notice it. And over a period of a year, things have changed 70 % from what it was like. But if someone had tried the 70 % straight away, it would freak you out. But I don't know whether it's travel. Uh, Lawrence, think you use that example before, which I thought was really relevant. If, if you go to another culture and you live there in a different country over a while that you're going to experience change, you've got different cultural values. Even after a period of five years, people go, Hey Lawrence, you don't talk like a Canadian anymore. I go, what are you talking about? And so now you've got Australia in there. You've got Portugal. So that environmentally, you're going to be influenced by that, but you can't have the expectation. I think where you go, I'm going to change. I'm going to stay exactly the same way. am. And everything else is going to, you know, stay exactly the same because that's not, that's a time capsule that you're basically stuck in cryogenics where things don't change deliberately, but the natural order of things is going to be changing. So if you can adapt to that and like you've just said, have a look at what's going on as a trend and, and acknowledge that you may not know what's going on, but if you have that nimbleness, that ability to go, okay, I don't know what's happening. I don't know what's happening down the line. But what I can do is stay open, look for opportunities, look for scenarios. This area may totally shut down, but this may open this area up. And I don't know just yet because it'll unfold as time goes on. that to me is that's transition part. If you hold rigidly onto a past, an outcome, a memory, relationship and experience, you're stuck in that identity and you don't, it doesn't allow you to progress and develop.

Yeah. You know, you made an interesting point that kind of got me thinking about, you know, uh change itself and incremental change. So we don't notice that, right? We like if you think back on the your phone, the phone's kind of looking at me right now. So it's like the phone or the computer that, we're on right now, the incremental change and the step up in terms of technology every single year. You know, the phone that you have right now, I guarantee you, is very different technology and speed. and capabilities than it was five years ago and 10 years ago. But you're not gonna notice them until you compare the two over a long period of time. But if I compare like this year's phone versus last year's phone, what I really know is the difference, minute, right? But when you stack 10 % on top of each year over a five year period, it's a very step up change, right? I think phones have gone to a point where the... the changes from year to year is very minute where at the beginning it was very big. Like iPhone 3 to iPhone 4 was like massive, right? iPhone 4 to 5 is massive. But once it got to about, yeah, exactly. But when it went from iPhone 10 and above, like, I mean, it's been like a step change, right? And that's why I think AI is like, at that first phase, it's like all these changes every day that's coming through, like, oh my God, like this was not happening last week, let alone, you know, what was happening six months ago. It is happening very fast and rapidly.

else you All the bricks that you had the first... Yeah.

My point, what I wanted to kind of come back to is that if you're a person who has stayed, you know, in whatever identity, maybe career or job or business or location, you might not notice the change because it's so small and incremental. But if for someone like me coming back to it after a long period of time, it's changed so much. It's not the... is not the same place as it was. my example would be going back to Toronto. Like, I haven't lived in Toronto for over 24 years. I've been back several times and a little bit more often the last couple years. Yes, there's parts of it I kind of remember like, oh, like, yeah, this is but it's Toronto is no longer the same city of how I grew up. Right? I'm not criticizing good or bad. but it's not the same city. But for people who living in Toronto, because you live it every single day and the incremental changes are small, you notice the change, of course. I'm not saying you don't notice the change, but to you, it's not that different, right? I'm sure. But for me, coming out like an outsider who've gone away for a little while and coming back, it's like, it's uh a massive change to me. And so I think that's what I mean by like oftentimes when we're in something for deep long enough,

Hmm.

We don't, this change is so incrementally small. We probably don't feel it as much. And it's not until you go outside and then come back in when you start to realize what you were living in. And I'll give you one last thing. I did the same thing when I went, when I left Perth to go to Sydney. When I left Perth, I don't think I went back to Perth. When I went to Sydney, I don't think I went back to Perth for maybe a year or two years later. And I remember what Karen was talking about, like, oh, I kind of miss Perth. and she was talking about that missing Perth, but she hasn't been back. But I've been back a couple of times and I'm like, you're not missing much. Nothing against Perth, I love Perth, but it's not the same city when we first arrived and how thrilling that was when we first moved there, because it was so different. But because I lived there for 12 years and after leaving, coming back, it's like, oh, I never realized how flat Perth was. never realized, certain things you just don't really see. when you're living in it because you don't see the note. It's no different than as a parent watching your child, you don't notice how fast they're growing and changing, right? Unless, you know, where other comments are like, oh my God, your kids are so tall or so big or because they haven't seen them in a while, but you've seen them every day, the incremental changes are so small.

Yeah, totally. And you're right. I think that that's what change and travel does is that it, it not that it desensitizes you to you, but I knew that I had adapted to my environment when, know, when you go to a new place and signs stand out, even the way the lettering is or cars or, and you can just know I'm not normally from here. Right. But after a while, there's a normality where you just, and you go, Oh yeah, this is my environment is my hood now. uh

Yeah. Yeah.

was really fast. That's when you know, okay, this is now, now I'm comfortable. I've gotten this, maybe my nervous system is quiet and goes, Hey, this is not a new environment. You don't have to be like, can, you can drop into that. Um, I now go back to Melbourne and I have that a lot, not really. There's a familiarity, but I'll walk around and go, this isn't the place that I, so, you know, that shows how much I've changed in that period of time. And.

Yeah.

You know, last thing about Toronto, my son's at Xavi's living there now. And he's aware of the huge apartment complexes that have been built there as well. He just basically he's got himself an apartment and he goes, yeah, I can get one here. There's so much a hive of activity. So, and that's within the short period of time that he's been there, let alone you coming in, haven't been there for a while. You'll go look at the change that's occurred here. You know, so.

Yeah, all that downtown core, all that downtown core with all those apartments there, they were not there 24 years ago. Sure, there was apartments, but not that whole corridor.

Yeah. It's like pocket South Bank in Melbourne and parts of Sydney and Perth as well too, sorry.

But you need to kind of be away from it long enough to see the change. Like if you go away for a year, you'd probably don't know this change, but you going back to Melbourne now, like after two or three years, like there's enough changes, like in terms of restaurants, certain things I moved and to realize I'm like, oh, this is like, this is in the place that I used to be, right? Like I don't feel the difference in terms of where I live in Kachkash, but I know like if I really intellectually think about it, when I first moved here,

Yeah.

this is a very different place than it was four years ago because like a lot of restaurants, infrastructures have changed, buildings, and that has shaped it. But I don't see it because I see them building little bit by little bit. And so I don't notice it as much. And I think that's the reality that we kind of get warped around. And I think this is important because in transition, you're so stuck. Let's go back to this topic is like we're seeing like day to day movements.

Yeah.

of this transition and we don't see the change that's happening within us. But if you, almost have to like take a step back and like pop your head up and just like look back and go like, you know, where have I come from? And realizing that you have made some grounds or we both have made some grounds from four years ago. It's just that it's not matching to our expectation on our heads that where we should be. But the reality is like, you know, all of this dating thing that we've been doing is really just been percolating and

Yeah.

And hopefully we'll get to a part where we can actually kind of sink our teeth in into something that matters to us. And I think that that's important to recognize that those moments of small little changes are happening. We just don't see it because it's so small.

Yeah. The last thing I was going to say is like, Stephen jobs always says, you, the dots line up afterwards. And so we will look back on this period and go, uh Oh, now I know why there was that period. Like we were doing what we were doing, but it was setting the scene and path, or maybe it isn't, who knows, but I get a sense that it is. be, I'll look back in this chapter and period and go, okay, now it makes sense. And I'm grateful as I did for every other period in my time in life.

Yeah. And I think that that's the last little bit I wanna say, which is like, you have to have the hope, right? Like you have to have the hope that the future is gonna be brighter than it is today. And you have to have the hope that everything you're doing has an impact on someone or some, you know, in your life or someone else's life. And, you know, I made, I did a post yesterday on LinkedIn about my daughter. You know, she surpassed me in terms of number of followers and she made a post about it. I kind of joked about it as well.

you

And someone, one of my friends commented it on, goes like, you know, isn't that wonderful? It is actually our job, you know, as parents is to ensure that our kids are better than us. And, and it's, and I said, that's the exact, that's the most essential thing, isn't it? Like of all the things we've tried to strive for, it's like, we just hope that our hope that our kids lives are better than the lives that we actually had. And that's what we really do. And we're hoping we set up, you know, the foundation for them to kind of thrive upon. And, I think that hope like that,

Yeah.

that North Star needs to constantly be there. um So that it forces us to kind of go in like it's worth the wait, it's worth the push, it's worth the um effort we all got to put in. I think having that in the back of our minds, I think it's really super.

Yeah, I'm done, I'm complete.

All right, I hope that you got a lot of value out that and especially for those of you who are thinking about it through a transition. Again, we're on a different path and we're on a different transition period and change. uh If you are in the middle of it, I hope this has been helpful to kind of help you think through your particular areas and if you do need help, reach out. I'll see you uh until, and I know that that path is gonna be full of imperfections. So until next week, I'll talk to you soon. Take care.