The Gift of Aging: Imperfection, Connection & Growth

Welcome to Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. And this is going to be a special episode because I'm well, I'm one year older. Yes, I'm one year older and I am now across that threshold of the halfway point. That's what I call it. The halfway point because I still believe that I think with technology and my regimen, I'm looking forward to a healthy long life beyond a hundred years old and 50 is just the turning point. But it's so weird, Jim.

It's Lauren's birthday, birthday edition.

to kind of talk, I know you're over 50, but ah it's a weird in a couple ways. Like one is my brain, my mind doesn't feel like it. probably sometimes I think like, okay, I'm slowing down here a little bit from a cognitive ability, maybe it's just in my head. But some physical stuff is definitely happening. Like I gotta wear like, know, reading glasses, despite that I have like massively strong contacts already on top of that. So I like literally two double glasses. Now I can't read things on my phone.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I've, know, dark, you driving in the dark is kind of a little harder. But other than those physical elements, like, my joints feel pretty good. Like, I'm still feeling strong and physically stronger than ever. But yet, some of the signs are kind of ticking along. But yet, at the same time, I still remember when my dad was 50, I think, around that time. And when I was young, I'm thinking, man, he's old. And I look back, actually was going back through some old photos recently with my daughter, cause we're just, I was trying to find this old photo and I saw my dad and I would imagine he's about my age now or even younger. And I looked at him like, wow, I don't remember him being that young. Right. So, and so it's strange to see different perspectives. So your own perspective is really different and your kids, I, I, uh my wife actually from my 50th, she, uh, she had this tree.

Yep.

And she put like all these letters from people, which is like these letters here from various people in my life. And for about open when you're feeling, you know, uh uncertain or open when you're feeling a little down or, you know, whatever. Like it was like to remember yourself. And it was really great. It's from people from all over my life, different parts of my life. But she also hung up some photos. And that's where she was going through the old photos as well. And, and my son, my son saw like an old photo of me back in like high school or elementary school. I was, I think I've said this many times in this podcast that I could like look a total nerd, right? Like my big glasses and hair is like really bad. And it's funny comment with my son was like, I really don't like how dad used to look. It's like, it just looks so bad. And so I've changed a lot. So yeah, anyway, so I was young once and I was, yeah, it's funny how your kids perception of you and what they think of you now.

You Yeah.

Who knows, like when I'm 80 years old and when they reflect back on this time and as far as seeing old photos, it's like, it's amazing how much time has changed. Even though you're like, that's carzy part, right? And then we'll go, sorry, I'll let me finish one. Which one is your physicality and the externals are changing slowly with time. But thinking here feels like it hasn't changed whatsoever in the last 20 years. So that's how I feel.

Yeah, totally, totally. And it's, it's ironic that here I am talking to you with, I shaved my head just a little while ago. So anybody watching, might need to put some sunglasses on it is that there's a shine coming off it, but that speaks to the aging process. You know, I'm wearing glasses and I've got a bald head myself. So I totally get that. And it's funny. I'm approaching now 57 this year. And I remember turning 50. It was a quite a surreal process and experience as well, because I don't know about you, but. When I was younger, I mapped along my timelines and like, the time I'm 30, I'm looking at doing this and 40 and 50. then when I got to those points, I suddenly, it was both celebration, but then also, oh, okay. There's, there's, I thought there would be a different, I'd feel different or, or whatever, particularly, you know, when I got to 30 and then, and then 40 and then 50, I'm starting now to look back more than forward more, if that makes sense. Have you found that? Yeah.

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Yeah, I definitely feel like, and I don't know what it is, or I think there's probably the old ads, you know, when we're younger, when they sell the ads of like 65 as retirement and you know, or, know, freedom 55, maybe 55, you retire or whatever. But, and so you get marked as point of 50, like once you turn that 50 more, like you're in the last stage of your life, that's like, it's been trained and ingrained in our brain for that. But you know, I don't feel like I'm there, but it's amazing. It's hard to shake those.

So Yeah.

initial thoughts have been imprinted since you were young.

It's a state of mind at the start of mine. That's funny because yeah, you could, you could get to over 55 retirement homes. And I just said to, pretend no, no, no, no. I don't want to, know, yeah, we've spoken about you become the average of the five people you hang around with the most. If I'm hanging around with people my age, it slows me down. have to be, I have to what part, part of what, you know, people have commented about you and I are going, Hey, you're doing things that

Yeah.

Most people don't do it. I think in large part, hang around younger people than us. I really feel that that's not, not that I'm ageist and there's people that are my age I hang around with as well, but I draw a lot of inspiration from younger people, but it was funny. We had to catch the bus at the other day, but to and I, and I said to, Hey, look at this in a few more years, we can get these seniors discounts on the bus. Well, that went down like a lead balloon. can imagine at that time, but that's the reality when it hits home when, when

Yes.

you do that or you hit some insurance form that you've got to fill in and they're going 55 year old male, you know, the, and that's when it hits me is that when I'm looking at the actuary charts and they're basically saying based on your age, this is what's going on. And these are the things that you go, I don't feel that I don't want to do that. Whether it's denial, whether it's just living uh vitally and actually having life in years. I think that's really important to me because you can, you can

Hmm.

You can be 55 in years, but not necessarily mindset. There's a big difference.

You're absolutely right about the hanging around the people that makes you feel younger and more vibrant, right? So like, you you and I both obviously work out a ton and obviously when we work out, we hang out with people who are fit and healthy and do a lot of physical activity. And what's interesting about that is that, I don't know if you ever felt this way, but you know, inside my mind, I don't talk this out loud, right? But I'm talking about it now in a podcast in recorded form so it's that, you know, it's recorded for life.

So it's legit.

It's legit. But these are the literal conversations I have in my head, right? So like, okay, yeah, so I'm like working out, you know, I'm competing in CrossFit or whatever, just in my head, like just we're talking competing. When I say competing, mean competing with myself on the workout of the day, cannot actually even competition. I'm working out, you know, again, and these like young whippers snippers are like, you know, either coming close to me or beating me, you know, like there's just that competition, right? There's that, you know, you can see in the corner, I'm like, okay, he's doing one more burpee to me, I gotta catch up, you know, you're doing all that stuff. And while you're doing that, the other side of my brain goes, yeah, but that guy is, they don't know I'm 50, right? They don't know how old I am, right? And so it's always that problem like, yeah, I'm keeping up with these guys, right? But then you forget sometimes, because again, this is the crowd you hang out with, right? In this class of 20, there's always this one guy who's probably 55 years old, right? Who's like five years older, who is destroying you, right? Who's destroying you.

Yeah, Yeah, they're the outliers. m

Oh, you don't compare that guy that you compared to the 30 year old you're competing, right? It's like, and it's like, oh, wait a second. Oh, yes, I do. But again, going back to this is like, but not all 50 year olds, right, or whatever, whoever you hang out with is, are the norm, right? We because we put ourselves in situations that we don't fit the norm. And therefore you're going to attract other people who are similar situation who's 55 or whatever 60 years old doing the same thing that we're doing and destroying us because they're not them. for their age group either. And so I think that's the thing. It's like, you're absolutely right about feeling more vibrant by hanging out with other people who kind of provides that. And it's not an age thing. This is what I was trying to say basically. It's like, it's not necessarily an age thing. It's more the mindset and the physical ability that you're putting yourself into to not be the norm and to you actually go, this is my norm, not what society expects you to be.

Yeah. And there's, there's acknowledging it in yourself and also then not, not denying the reality of the situation as well too. I had, so now same thing. went, I, did a double jujitsu class on the weekend. I now I've actually started wearing the gay for training as well, which I've never done before. Uh, in all the years I've been trying to do it, so it's all been no gay. I've, I've actually did a normal class with a gay and then I did a no gay. I did, you know, it would have been three hours with a jujitsu. And afterwards I was just having a chat with someone and they're going, Hey, so what are you doing after training? And then it's like, I'm going to go this and this and this. What about you? I think I might just go for a nap, you know, because they're the practicalities you can keep up, but it's the recovery time that I'm finding there's a lot longer. So I think it's, this is really helpful for me to acknowledge the truth of the situation.

Yeah.

acknowledge the re I don't like the, I don't like the word realistic as such. I like, I like the truth of the situation and having a honest assessment of where you're at, but not amplifying it or compounding it by a negative disempowering story. You know what that means. So it's like, that's how I find that I keep, can cycle myself up or because I can spiral up because if I start, uh basically looking at that scenario and going, Hey, look at this 30 year old who can do things that I can't do.

Yeah, yeah.

Then I start going down that spiral of, poor me. I shouldn't have been trying this. I'll blokes and blah, blah. Whereas like, if I get to the point of go, look at this 30 year old, you know what? That's cool, man. Cause not many 55 year olds, 57 year olds are doing this. Look at this. after you, and that becomes an upward spiral. So that to me is how I changed the narrative in the story. Not denying the truth, but it's like just using it to my advantage is how I changed the direction.

Yeah, exactly. And I think this is exactly what happens in business as well is that we tend not to sometimes, uh, face the truth, you know, whether it be looking at your numbers and, or looking at your bank account. And, and what we do is we kind of go into denial. And I know I've gone through this many times and when you're to use age, but translate age to, know, where you're at in business or career or finances or whatever, you start to realize it like, yeah, you're just, we're just not, we're just denying that we're in this situation. Right. And so meaning like, I remember like looking at my phone and I'm like, you know, I could increase the font size, but I refuse to. I'm denied. Like what I'm doing is I'm denying the fact that I can't read that. Like, no, no, no, it can't be true. But the reality is like, I'm still denying it because it still has the same font sizes. I almost refused to, because my first protocol, what I'm doing is I'm going, I'll just increase the brightness. Right. Cause if I increase the brightness, I can probably see a little bit better, but that's part of the dial rates because I'm not. facing realities that my eyes are just not as strong as it used to be. And that's the thing I'm denying. And I'm fully into this, And it's like, it's trying to keep the sanity that I haven't changed. But the reality is though, it's like I look at my body or I look at my recovery time, like you said, it's just not the same. Like it is way harder to kind of keep up uh in terms of muscular strength and recovery. Right now I'm dealing with some tennis elbow tendonitis. from playing too much paddle. It's like, but I don't want to stop. But at same time, I also know like, okay, well, I'm not recovering as much because you know, it's just harder. It's just, just ages catching up. So I need to like pace myself. And, it's just, it's just that mentality is really difficult to shift. And I think that's, this happens not just with age. I think it happens with our health. It happens with our finances and it happens with our business. And I've done this many times. It's like, I'm denying that I, you know, my, uh, my clients are going down or I'm denying that my marketing is going down or whatever it is for your business. You know, I've been there, I've been there, it sucks, right? Cause you don't want to look at it, want to face the truth. And sometimes that's what numbers do. And that's why no one wants to, you know, usually look at the numbers. No one wants to kind of see the numbers because it's just so depressing, right? Sometimes. And I'm not saying it is always healthy, but I think it's, you know, I always try to tell my clients is like looking at numbers is that you got to look at it like a dashboard on a car.

Yep. Yep.

You know, it's just, just a, it's, it's more like a fleeting moment. You're looking like, okay, I'm going to hundred kilometers per hour. Oh, I'm going 120. I better slow down. You know, it's just like, you try not to get too emotional about we're human beings. Unfortunately, we fall into the trap. And for some people, those numbers can really put them into emotional spiral and that's not necessarily healthy either. So it's finding, trying to find that balance is very difficult, but it's also again, avoiding it though, is, isn't helping either. I think we need to remember that.

Yep. Yep. Yeah. And interestingly, in the last couple of weeks, there's, there's a recurring theme that I've been seeing with people that I've been working in. that is kind of along those lines of what's a truth, you know, that you don't want to admit to yourself and what impact is that having on your life and world? So as you said, it could be the, know I may need to alter the font size and that whatever that is, right. But then it could be, what's the reality of your health? What, what are those numbers meaning to you? What, what, what, what do you want to ignore? What do you want? Just want to put your head in the sand and hope it'll go away. What's the truth about your relationship? What's truth about your business? And a lot of the times it, don't know whether as time goes on, I think I see it happen one of two ways. There's either a group of people that settle. go, you know what? Um, hit my fifties, you know, it's not bad enough. I'll take the, the pedal off the metal, um, put the queue in the rack, so to speak, and just. coast a little bit more. And there's a percentage of those, but then there's other people who go, you know, I don't have much more time I've got left. I want to make everything mean something. And so I'm going to be a lot more intentional. So I really interested to see, because I mentioned to you that at 50 for me, I certainly look back more than I look forward, but I still move forward with the view that the best of me is still ahead of me. I still have that fundamental belief. It may look in a different form. It'd be a bloke with less hair. than in his twenties and thirties, but still fundamentally the essence and the soul of me is still wanting to get up, dress up, show up with the best I can. It's just going to be a different form. So love to get your spin on that in terms of the, the, the dichotomy between reflection and also moving forward.

Yeah. uh I think, yeah, 50 is going to be, I mean, I'm only like a few days into it, right? So 10 days into it right now at the time of recording. yeah, so here's my 10, these are my 10 days worth of wisdom to share with everyone here. I think I've been, once I've been hitting around the late forties, I think I've been thinking a lot about this, which is it's so true. And this is for those people who are in their thirties and twenties listening to this. It's so true what they say that.

So in these 10 days of post 50, what have you learnt? You

when you hit 50 or around this age, you start caring less and less what people think. And I never thought I would get here, because I really struggled with it when I was younger. But man, it's so true. I'm not saying that I don't care, but I definitely care less. And as the decades go on, I definitely care less and less and less, which has been really interesting process, I guess, uh going through that. um I have been thinking more reflectively. And obviously for lot of reasons for, you know, looking back on some old photos really brought back some memories. Thinking back on, you know, all the things we've done has been reflective. This is also my birthday is also the day my Karen and I met as well. Like it just so happens. And it also is the same day as my graduating from chiropractic college. Like it's it all happened. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah.

She's that makes it easier, Lawrence. Either it makes it easier or you're the wipeout for forgetting all of them.

So it's like, it's a lot of things happened on my birthday. It's also actually, it was supposed to be the day I left of Australia to come here in Portugal three years ago, but we ended up having to delay that by a day due to a couple of reasons. it was definitely, so it's been definitely a lot of reflectiveness on terms of what has happened, but your comment around the best is ahead of you. I still, really feel that. as you were saying, and I'm like, huh, like that's an interesting thought, right? Not as a, like you should have that thought, but more of a, you, I feel like you fully believe it. I actually believe it, but I can see how someone goes, okay, I want to adopt that. by adopting it is not enough. Like you really have to like really believe that the best is ahead of you in order to make that a reality. um If that makes sense. I think there's a lot of around this age, I can see it. I can see where my brain kind of will tend to go, which is going, oh, you're 50 years old now. Like you shouldn't be doing all this stuff or you're 50 or you like, no, like why do have to go work out so hard? Like, you know, it's time to slow down or, know, you should go do this or do that. And I had to fight that, right? So I can imagine where a lot of people would be just like, oh, that's normal. That's what, cause they're looking at their closest people around them and says, That's what everybody else is doing. So therefore that's what I should do too. Right. And again, this is not 50, this is anywhere who's in their thirties turning 30 or turning forties or whatever age you're at. It's the same thing. Cause you just look around and go, well, that's norm. So I should behave as a norm. But I think we have, what we're saying is that you almost got to find your own norm or you got to find your own path in what by doing so I think you, you, set yourself in a different light. I don't care. I know it sounds silly. And I can't even believe I'm actually going to talk about this on a podcast. But the reality is I look back at some of the old photos. like, I did ask McCarran, like, why did you date me? Like, look at me. what did you find? Because I was not that I was like, was looking at myself, I'm like, man, like I was baggy pants and baggy clothes and didn't have anything. wow, like what were you thinking? Like, whoa, how did you think that, you know, I was a dateable person? You know, like, I'm not being cruel. I'm just thinking to myself, like, I feel like I've aged, you know, well. you know, I think I've, you know, gone better looking and, you know, maybe because I have a bit more sense of fashion or, you know, of course we have more money now than we had, you know, when we were young, but it's still like, it's one of those things that I think back and like, wow, like I have gone better with age and even in health, I feel like I'm definitely was stronger in my forties than any time in my life. And, um, and that's one part, like I'm not sure of actually, you know, to be honest with you, if my fifties will be better than my forties.

Yep. Yep.

Mostly because you kind of know the biological factors. Can it happen? I'm not saying it won't be the same, but I'm not sure if it could be better and stronger than I was in the 40s just because of hormone issue. I could be wrong. yeah.

It depends on what metric you talk about, right? Because when I, when I use that as an overarching belief, I don't necessarily, you know, the, things that I, the, the strength that I had in my thirties, I don't have in my fifties now. I really don't. So, but that to me is one component of that. You know, the best of me is like, I think in terms of, you know, my contribution, my impact, my effect. My connection, my appreciation, my joy, like there's something, I don't know. There's a lot of insecurity that you have when you're in your twenties and thirties. really do. That was a really, I wouldn't say anxious time, but it was like, Hey man, I've got young kids. hope they're okay. I hope they're going to find their way. You know, Hey, we've got people that we're responsible for. We've got school fees. We've got mortgages. We've got all those kinds of things. And there's a level of, of angst that you have. And thankfully you have that physicality, the energy to match it because that's the case, but there's a part of, um, and this is where I'm coming from, from the perspective of going, okay, my eldest son, at the time of recording tomorrow, turns 29 tomorrow. Right. Part of me goes, where did that time go? Where did that time go? How does that, you know, it's only yesterday that you're waking up at four 30 every morning. And, um, I was there going, I haven't got a full night's sleep.

True. Yeah.

in goodness knows how long and it's just a blur now. It's just, I think about that fondly, even though while I was going through that was really tough. So the best of me now is I look at it and go, okay, who am I going to be now that our kids are independent? We've got a level of financial security that allows us to have choice. Not, not bound by the obligations that I had, um, you know, of, providing for kids to go to school. Who can you be? can you do? That to me is what I focus on, you know, because if I focus just on the physicality and the strength, I'd be depressed. And, um, and I still focus on it and go, Hey, there was a time where I was lifting every weight in this room and I can't do that anymore. And, but I'm still getting in there. I'm still lifting. I'm still defying the odds. working against what is inertia. Each is the easy thing to. Um, to do and, really I'm not looking for comfort. I'm actually looking for growth and looking for progress and it's calibrated to my age. And that's the part of the hardest part of it is coming to terms with that and being okay with it. That's the, that's the biggest sort of objective that I've had to overcome.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like for me, it was just purely the physical power, physical part of me. That's the thing that I am unsure of whether or not I'm on the up, you know, everything else is like, yeah, the best is still ahead of me. Creativity companies are going to form business. I'm to form the ideas is still ahead of me. The challenges, the experiences that's still ahead of me. the one thing that I feel like it's harder for me to wrestle with is the physicality again.

Ha!

It depends on how I measure it, right? So measurement, just purely on just like strength maybe, and recovery. I just, I feel I've started to know that, okay, I don't know if this decade can be as good as the 40s. Because the 40s, you know, I can train hard, I can develop muscles similar to 30, but not as good as 30, but I can still do it. But the 50s, I feel like my body biologically is gonna start slowing down. and which means that I won't be able to um be at the same pace as I was from my 40 to 50 year old to from the 50 to 60 year old and recovery times are just gonna have to recalibrate like you said to take different measurements rather than just pure strength. So like if we just did, not that I look at like what my dead lifts or squats are, but knowing that my PBs are probably again, not necessarily but.

Yep.

because I'm not chasing, those are the things that I don't chase, most likely it's going to be either same or decline. If I can maintain it, I'll be happy. And that would be even maintaining my scores for certain workouts or something like that. I'll be ecstatic ah if I can just come close to them without having to be worried. Again, that might be a pessimistic mindset, but also going back to what we said about facing reality. Facing reality is the truth is that biologically, again, it doesn't have to be.

Yep.

But most likely, know, muscle mass, you know, building, you know, in your fifties are going to start to really decline. And what I'm trying to maintain is just to make sure that I don't decline rapidly. I'm trying to maintain and try to grow as much as I can so that I don't have to worry about that in my seventies.

Thank Yep. And interestingly on that, one of the last things to decrease in aging is grip strength. And so, uh a measure of cognitive ability is your grip strength. Right? So there are a whole lot of particularly looking at it from in jujitsu. There's a whole style of plays like, um, old man jujitsu, right? It's an old style. they basically go, okay, don't try to compete. And this is what I would say. That's what I've come to look at is don't try to compete at a younger man's game.

Hmm.

So for us, it's like, okay, use your grip, use your closure, use your, your squeeze and bring them to you and take out their, their, their perceived advantages of strength and endurance. So, so effectively that's what does that. And so what I've, what I mean by that purely from a Jiu-Jitsu perspective is I go, okay, well, I might not roll every round. might take a round off. And it's kind of interval trained or putting it in CrossFit. might be, I don't train every day. I train every second day and those alternating days I go for a walk or a bike ride. So you're still doing things. They're the kind of things that I've took that because. Like I said, I did a three hour session on Sunday, Monday. I was planned to do that. Wasn't going to happen. So I had to just, I had to go for an hour and a half walk just to get the stiffness. So it's just, it's the realities of that. So to me, it's like not focusing on what I can't do, but focusing more. can do has been. quite, quite helpful. Um, and, but I wanted to go back to something Lawrence about the turning 50. there specific things that you thought by 50 you would be doing or not doing that you suddenly look back on and went, Oh, I thought it'd be different here. Or I had this perception of what 50 looked like and it either has matched it or it hasn't made anything like it.

That's a very interesting question. I think the honest answer is that I never really had the same thoughts that you had. Like you said, you had certain thoughts around your 30s and 40s. I never really thought that far ahead. I could almost think, I could barely think about what's gonna happen next year, let alone like five, 10 years. I was never that type of thinker. So to, I guess to keep it from reality is, no, I don't.

Yep. Yep.

I don't have a mismatch because I never really had an expectation of where I would be in 50. I definitely enjoyed my 40s. I really enjoyed my 40s, the things I did. I do feel, okay, it's a double-edged sword here, so I don't know if that's the right term. So there's one part of my brain that says you should be further along. You could be or should be further along in every aspect, physically, financially, career-wise, so on and so forth. And, but there's also another part of me that looks back at my life and I evaluate it from like the beginning and the choices I made and going, damn, I a great life. Like, so, so I'm contrasted by those two things. So one is like, I think it's the two brains in your head. Like one brain is like the driver to go, come on, man. Like you only got so much time left. Go freaking get your ass. you know, out of comfort and go do some stuff, right? Go change the world or whatever it is. I don't care about changing the world anymore. like, go and just do something, right? Just make your life worth it. And then there's the other part also has grace, Gratefulness to go, yeah, like I've lived a good life, you know? Like I made some great choices. I have a beautiful family. I have great wife. I have some good friends around me. And I made some really decent moves that, you know, that... has created a great experience in my life, and I should be happy with that. And I think I'm constantly torn by those two things. uh It's like this mental game of...

Hmm.

I guess they're like the two wolves, right? You know, we talked about the story of the two wolves. There's like the two wolves that sit in me all the time. And not in that context, but the two wolves are just simply the one that drives me to get me going. And then the also the one is that to also call me to recognize that when things are really stressful, to go, hey, it's okay, like, you done great. So stop pressuring yourself. So it's, always finding that balance. I think if one overtakes too much, though, um I don't think it's good.

Yeah.

Right, so like if the wolf that's hungry all the time, I'm never actually spending any time to appreciate the life that I'm actually creating or in process, and I'm always go, go, go, go, which has sometimes dominate in weeks and months. And then there's the other time, if I just sit in grace and grateful for what I have, which has probably been the last three years, two and a half years, first two and a half, it's like, oh man, life is great, sunshine, paddle all the time, like, you know, but then. you lose that drive. And I felt like I've lost that drive in the first two and a half years and, you know, settling into Southern European life. And so it's like, I finally found this, this driver again. And hence, like, you know, there's more activity, more like I'm writing more, you know, shooting more videos and just getting more content out there. Cause like, just got this driver and like, man, like, that's not waste this, like, let's not waste this opportunity, uh, in terms of my ability, my strength and my, uh, drive. we, you know, I'm still cognitive and still got

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm still hungry and want to achieve. And it's like, is this balance? uh And I find like I need both.

Yeah, a hundred percent. totally, um, there's a couple of books that I've, that I've always referenced. One of them was called the upside of your dark side. And it talks about those parts of you, those, the wolf in your, in your mind that actually drives you further. And if you can harness that for good rather than evil, it can actually work very helpful. So they talk about frustration. They talk about anger as catalysts to create change. and to a large degree things.

Hmm.

only happened from dissatisfaction, right? If you're, if you're satisfied in a lot of parts, you're not necessarily going to create some of the greatest songs ever written in the world. Weren't necessarily because people were basically loss and heartbreak and disappointment and anger. And people use that as an outlet. And so if you can harness that power, you know, you can actually get a lot of stuff done. So that's the part of it, but it's also the part where there's another writer called Gabbo Matei who talks about You know, the, the, the, the basically the, what do call it? The hollow wool, hollow ghosts, which are ones that can never get satisfied. Right. Where you, no matter what you achieve, you always feel you're never good enough, you're not worthy enough, et cetera. So to me, it is that harmony of both where you actually use it for driver, but also acknowledging it's kind of like a consolidation as you go up a stair step. Because if you, if it's a roller coaster, you'll go up down based on your self-esteem at that any one time. But if you actually consolidate and. expand, consolidate, expand, consolidate. can keep moving forward and also appreciate at the same time. I totally get that. So if I'm navel gazing, I'm like, what's the point of doing anything great. Enjoy the sunshine. It's all great. You're living in, Southern Europe or well and good, but that's what I mean by, there's stuff that I feel inspired by. I want to do. And just, you know, confirming what you've basically said. Um, or, know, for, people that I was going to put it out there, we have spoken. offline Lawrence and I about running an event, right? A combined event. You want to say this guy when he's actually on, because we started off with a concept and idea. Hey, what do think about this? He's jammed up my inboxes, right? With ideas and that's the creative flow. That's, that's what I mean. And I've got that too. When I'm like on something I'm like, it's, it's teeming out of me. Totally, totally, totally. And so that wasn't, I saw that and

Yeah.

And for you to go, Hey, I'm writing, I'm doing this. That is the creative play that's coming through. That's the driver that we need. Right. And, um, gosh, it's when women, both of us are in that zone. Holy moly. It's hard to get oxygen in that room because we're just like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's, that's how it looks. And we're going to use the experience of time. What we've learned, uh, running events and anything that we do is going to be. more efficient because of experience that we've had that. it may not run around. I don't feel like either of us will go run around and spin our wheels and do stuff for doing stuff. We've got, Hey, I've done that. This is what I found. This is what I do. And you get the benefit of experience over time.

Yeah. And I, you know, and this is not just us, right? And this is a very common thing. So yesterday I had a, my tiger meeting and, uh, you know, my tiger 21 meeting and there was a lot of people, there was actually a full house. had like 10 people around the table. had like four guests coming from, you know, the States and everywhere in London. And it was just really interesting. And what I saw in the room, there was a range of, you know, uh, late 30 year olds to, I would say, like, 60 early 60s, right? So 30 years or at least 20, somewhat 25 years of age range. And, you know, and you can just see like some of the the people that have, you know, have really, you know, founders or, you know, have done their work, and they've sold out and they don't not sold out in a sense of so like they sold out of their companies and their stakes, they don't actually have purpose anymore. Right. And when they, and when they when they've worked all their whole entire life,

range.

for that, you one thing, their baby, their company. And then all of a sudden, like, you're no longer it, that identity shift is the hardest for them to shift out of. Right? And what I see in this, and this is kind of how it's me a little bit, which is, they don't have it all sort of, they have all the money in the world, but they're restless. Right? They're restless. They're still there. They know this, they know they have all the money in the world, they would, they're never going to be poor.

Yeah.

right, even if they spend extravagantly, which they never do, right, they're going to be okay, worst case scenario, they still have, you know, whatever. But that's not what wrestles in their mind. The what they wrestle in their mind is like, I have so many good years left. What can I do with this? And the thing that gets me like, gives me hope, which is for a lot of them, it's like, they've been doing this for about one to two years. And the

Yep. uh

what I mean by that they're restless for about one to two, three years sometimes. And they need that time. They need that rest to kind of see the other side because they've been working their asses off for like 20 somewhat years. And now they've got the payoff, they almost they need to enjoy it. And then they got to find that hunger again. And and that's sort of what happened to me, right? So was like, okay, I left, you know, change, and it was a great, you know, great change, you're coming to Portugal, but I just could I had no mojo. I think I've told you this many times, I had no mojo, like, I'm like, Oh, my God.

Hmm. Yep.

I know what I need to do, but I have no desire to go and do this. I'd just go and pick up a paddle and just go call some friends and let's go play paddle. Like that was my mojo, right? And whereas now I feel like, okay, I finally found it. I don't know what it is or something turned in me. It's like, okay, like now. And I think you need that sense of purpose is what I'm saying, right? For them it's like, for the people who find that sense of purpose, they now feel like more alive.

Yeah.

where the people that haven't found the sense of purpose, they're just sort of like traveling the world, like traveling through Europe and they're enjoying life, no doubt about it. But what eats at them though, is that something in the back of my like, is this it though? Right? Like how many more years can I do this? Right? Without like me sinking my teeth in something. And that could be, doesn't mean that they go out and start a new company. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is like, where can I be of use or what can I be of help? What foundation can I join or what foundation can I create? What's... uh

Yep. Yeah.

charity can I support most of the time they know charity sucks, right? They just see like how inefficient these charities are. And so that's why they just bothers them because they just can't give money away. It's not because they can't. It's just because they don't want to like, why would you give it to because these are top businessmen. They see what a charity goes like, you're just wasting 90 % of your money. Like, why would I give you money? You just go waste 90 % of money you give you like, I wouldn't do that. And so it's just interesting how they're thinking through this process. And so they're kind of stuck, right? And this is the you know, the process. And so

Yep. Yeah.

If that's happening in that world, you know, it's happening in our world, right?

Totally. mean, same thing. You know, I think our parallel journeys and pathways, you mentioned earlier on three years ago before we left Portugal, remember when this was just an idea? Like remember when we just sat down and we just say, we're gonna do something one day. We don't know what it is. Three years down the track, three and a half years down the track here we are talking about this journey. But I totally understand that. And for the longest time, particularly for the majority of the time I was in Spain. I really sat, had to sit with that. was doing my own thing, but there's a, there's a level of purpose. Sometimes it doesn't have to be grandiose and huge. It could be, I want to be the best dad. want to be best mom. want to be whatever it is. And I want to provide for my family. And why I, that came up for me is suddenly this was such a big challenge is like suddenly I was, I didn't have the responsibility of taking care of people on a day to day. Um, I relinquished that title. relinquished my name. Uh, I didn't have kids that I had to provide for anymore. And so they're the big, you know, three or four prongs that you see that most people, know, I realized I gave me value and identity and validation of purpose. So I could, I could do whatever I could lift rocks, whatever, you know, shovel manure, whatever. If in my mind, I'm going, I'm doing this for my family, but what happens when you don't have to do that? What happens if you have such wealth that the people in your tiger group have where they go, I don't have to technically do anything. So what's the purpose of anything? That's a different question. And, and, know, that's the whole, you know, the search for meaning and purpose and all those things that really, you know, some, lot of people rust before they wear out and I don't want to rust. I don't want to rust. I'd much rather wear out than rust. And that's by compelling drive for life.

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, yeah, so true. is like rusting is, that's a really good analogy because rusting scares me, right? Like physically and emotionally, and also like just mentally, like, you know, just the thought of like not being able to, and that's what I was worried about, actually. I was been worried the last couple of years, like, have I just lost this completely? Like am I going to be able to recover from this? And I had those thoughts, I've had those discussions with you and I might even discuss the years. It's just,

Yeah, same, yeah. Yeah. Yep, yep. Yeah.

you know, you do think like that sometimes you're like, man, I can't get it back. But because my timeframe when you're younger, it's like, you got to snap out of it, right? You know, next week or today, you know, like you don't have time for this and you got to snap out of it. Whereas, you know, as you get older, which is the time difference is now it's like, yeah, maybe I need six months to, to reassess this to, you know, or 12 months for me was two years before, you know, two and a half years before even kind of came to realization like, okay, all right, no more time to mess around. You just got to find that spark. And, know, I currently I have it, who knows? Like, you know, a couple of months I might lose it again, but you know, right now it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh it's, turning on and I'm getting excited on multiple projects and, just trying to figure out which one I want to tackle. So at least it's, it's, uh it's in my head and the brain is there and it's active. And so, but you're right. I can rather wear out because of energy and time or whatever, rather than just being like, uh, rusting away because I just didn't use it.

Goes in cycles. Yeah. Yeah. In the corporate world, they call it garden leave, where if someone leaves one role, they've got garden leave and garden leave is an indis, you know, it's not a defined time. could be six months. It could be two years. And the whole purpose is you're cultivating your, you're basically growing your, your re blooming, whatever it is that needs to come through, but it allows you enough time for that to happen. But initially the other, the other part is Lawrence, you know, the, I've, I've heard of

Yeah.

people who are elite sports people who are competitive. And there's a perception that all of that goes. And I don't necessarily think that's true. It just comes in a different form. You know, like I remember hearing some elite sports people go, look, the competitive week in week out competition went, but I channeled it into trying to have the best garden in the neighborhood. You know, and so I think it just takes different forms. And I know that when I'm in the nursing home, I'll probably be sitting next to you. Possibly who knows? And we'll be probably in our nineties and I'll be a little bit older because I still am. And you still will be younger, but that they'll go, Hey, it's time for you to do your walk around the tour. we do that really slow with, you know, little pop, probably Lee, you know, with a little Zimmer frames and someone will go, Hey, Lawrence did that a little bit quicker than you did. the next tomorrow, I mean, there's going to be doing warmups and stretches to try and beat you. And, that, You don't lose that. And I think that's actually helpful. You just have to work out that we're not going to be breaking world records going around the block in the Zimmer frame. We're just going to do the best way we can. And that's a way of life as opposed to age.

Yeah. And a good, yeah. Now I'll wrap it up with this one story, which is like, always, I've always tried to imagine like what Kobe Bryant would have done if he didn't pass away because like he did, he did that, right? He just spent 20 years being the top of his game. One of the best players in the world, uh, as a basketball player. And then when he finally hung up, right, he left, like, I still remember that last game. He left playing his last game, like scoring like 61 points or something ridiculous on his very last game. And then he called it a career. then all of sudden he just goes and starts creating somewhere else. I think he created a story and had won like an Oscar, I think, or one of those Golden Globes or whatever. then so he transformed the same competitive and mindset and that mama mentality into something else. And unfortunately he passed away. But it's been several years now. You want to think like, what would he have done? What would he have accomplished if he just continue because that was someone like that's someone who I can see like they basically took the best of the best on one sport knowing their age and limitations to that from injuries they transport to something completely different and I feel like we have that tenacity to do that and I hope that you guys got so much value from this and to think like wherever you are in your life there's not about us getting older or whatever it's like we're all getting older right so it's like what do you you know at your stage of your life what do you need to do what do you something you need to think about that leans into this imperfection life but also the way you can actually start to move and channel your energy to towards something So this is Wabi Sabi, this is Jim and I, I hope that you have a great week. Until our next episode, we'll talk to you soon. This is Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. Talk to you soon.

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