The Beauty of Unfinished Journeys

Welcome to Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. This podcast has always had some un-perfection. Today is no different. One of those things that, you know, when recording podcasts, as you know, Jim, we are dealt with technical difficulties often, and which really kind of goes to the point of today's topic. Our topic today is called the beauty of unfinished journeys. And I think the podcast is one of those platforms or things are, is basically the best analogy for unfinished journey because I mean, I've been recording podcasts and you have recording podcasts for a very, very long time. And like anything else, there's always this journey of like, how do you discover how to do it better? What are some of the things that we can improve on? How do we kind of say certain things that are different than, you know, how we done it before? And I think that life itself is like a podcast is right as you know, what this whole podcast is about our life because really we're just

Yeah.

as our life unfolds in front of us and we kind of talking about all the imperfections and embracing those imperfections as we go through life.

It's kind of like the Seinfeld show really, isn't it? It's the podcast about podcasts. You know, I was going to say the show about nothing, but I'd hope there's something in that for us. You may notice some tech, the sound quality is affected. We're just going with it because of the technicality. it's funny you say that, you know, we both are consumers and listeners of audio books and podcasts. And I was listening to one, most recently, a Joe Rogan interview and something happened that I'd never heard before. Joe Rogan was interviewing, um, vice presidential candidate, JD Vance on the podcast and it cut out sound quality cut out and they'll have issues and stuff with it. And I suddenly went, okay, it's not just me. It's not just us just go with it because the best in the industry has these technicalities and I can't tell you how much better I felt about myself with that.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, and they left it in too as well. That was the beautiful part. They left it in. They kind of go like, okay, we got to get that fixed. And like, you know, we're going to change these mics and it was, yeah.

Yeah. And I think, think obviously because it was very pending. So they released it the day that it actually, so I think it was a timely thing, but that was hilarious. That was so funny to actually see that and go, okay, things happen. know, like you just, you just gotta keep rolling on with it and keep working on it and, and fits in perfectly to our theme of the life and times of imperfection. I'm sorry, the, the art of imperfection.

Yeah, that's funny because I mean, I mean, really the episode was, uh, I built, remember the number because I saw it this morning actually. And, I finished it this morning and I was like, wow, this is really unusual. It was 2,221. So the point is it's, it's that he's done over 2000 episodes and they still have difficulties in their, in their technical things and they don't have a perfect. I think that's a great backdrop for life because the reality is that's exactly what happens. Right. Is that.

Yeah.

Whenever you think that life is, oh, I've got this or I completed it or this is done, we celebrate, but then we don't actually think about this is a never ending journey. And this is what I mean, this is the acceptance of seeing that because our social society is so focused on goals. We're so focused on goal orientation, meaning like there's an end point and there's a finishing end. But the thing in reality is there are definitely goals and finishing points, but guess what, the sun rises again the next day. And then so where do you go from there? What happens then? And oftentimes is that we don't really think about life beyond and the challenges that are associated with that. And case in point is one of the, as I work with ultra high net worth individuals, a lot of them have exited companies and they now have more money than they ever dreamed of and more money than they ever need. But it's like, It's almost like retirement, right? It's almost like, well, yeah, but I'm, I'm still young. I still got so much years of productivity left. Um, what else am going to do? And they struggle. The struggle is oftentimes is like, well, what can I do? Even they can do whatever they want, but they still a mental challenge there to figure out like, but am going to make a mistake or is this too much or too little? Not enough. Like it's the same, the patterns and the emotions are still there. And I think if we kind of embrace the fact of

I mean.

that life is unfinished until the actual end, right? When there is no more decisions to be made, we should treat it almost like a journey and treat it like as if it's a continual thing and we always have something to look forward to.

Yeah, totally agree. And you know, there's some amazing universal principles that fit into that exceptionally well. Like you could spend years getting to a level of fitness, stop it for a little while and see how that goes. Just basically stay off CrossFit for six months and see how you go that first session back. You'll be puffing like a steam train. And it's, think that that is life's way of telling you that, you know, you could have sub goals or,

Hehe.

signposts along the way to tell you that you've achieved something and congratulations, but keep going. You know, so many times people go, I'm going to get there and you go, what are you going to do after that? I don't know. Well, just keep going. Just keep doing it. It's not a finality. And I think that you speak to it really well when you talk about, uh, people who have, um, achieved a great outcome with regard to their business and they've got a good exit strategy, but they've got so much more music left in them. What are they going to dedicate their time, energy and effort to when one factor is gone? They can probably allocate it to things that they've been putting off or haven't had enough time to do, now they have. So they can keep doing.

Hmm. Yeah, it's a struggle. Like I think it's a time, like I look at, you know, um, even my dad, like, know when he officially retired, he was still always like tinkering, you know, he's still like trying to figure out what's the next deal. Um, what else can he try to do? And he was still trying to get his hands into certain things, which I think I appreciated it because I really felt that for him, that was one way to keep his mind busy. It was one, he didn't have a job per se anymore. Like he wasn't employed any longer. Um, but he was still trying to figure out how to, you know, create deals or, you know, create things to happen and make these, you know, to keep his mind busy. And I think that is the best way to do it. I think that you do have to continue getting that brain stimulated and try all these new things. I'm sure there's a point where, okay, you know, I don't need to do that anymore. you know, your body kind of slows down a little bit more or your mind kind of slows down a little bit more. But at that time, I've always, been encouraged and look at him and go, wow, like that's actually amazing for him to try to still kind of stimulate his brain and still be active and not let age defined, you know, his youth, I guess.

Yeah, because I mean, in that scenario, I guess he's following his own interests and curiosity. And that is what keeps you sharp. What keeps you going? It's, the feeling of when you're going against what you really want to do. You know, you hear of people who are re re needing to work too very late into retirement and they're physically demanding jobs and their bodies just said, listen, dude, can't do this anymore. That's different. But there's so many. Octogenarians and people in the eighties and nineties who's saying, Hey, I think I might take up this course of study right now. And in the eighties and they, they've got enthusiasm, they've got interest, they've got time and they follow things. So to me, I love that. I love it when I see. And maybe, you know, maybe because I'm at a stage in my life where I go, okay, I celebrate. I Marvel at the feats of people. who achieved things in their earlier years, in their twenties. know, if you're Nadia Comaneci, you're perfect gymnast as a teenager. Great. But what I'm also inspired by was the people in their sixties, seventies and eighties who are still doing amazing things, who are still like the seven year old crossfitter who rocks up and you go, wow, just wow. You know, like you've got every reason in the world to say, I don't need to do this anymore. I want to, it's too hard. And you still show up. That is a different. beast. That's a different animal that we're talking about here rather than someone who's got everything going for him right at the start when it's technically easier.

Yeah, I mean, everything's like, especially when you're younger, a lot of things that, you know, you, does come easier for someone who's younger. You can adapt. You can pick things up a lot quicker. Your brain's more malleable and you, can, um, I don't know, take the hits a little bit easier for some reason. Right. Um, and the, know, as you get older and physically, I mean, it's just the mostly CrossFit or any sport, you know, you don't recover as fast and you can't adapt or learning a new skill becomes a little bit more challenging. And I don't know what it is, but obviously, biologically, there's reasons for that. And the older you get, it is more challenging to learn new skills. But however, having said that, it doesn't mean you can't, right? That's really important to kind of define that. It's just harder. And so what happens is that, but if you have, it does take a mindset, right? The mindset of the unfinished journey, meaning that this is not over and there's still a journey for you to discover. And I think this is where it comes down to identity. When you talk about jobs as identity and maybe more affects more the previous generation, but it still affects this generation where our identity is typically our careers or our jobs. And so therefore what happens is that what happens to us when we're no longer in our identity anymore? We kind of lose that sense of identity. think we talked about this before. And when we lose that sense of identity, it's really, really tough, right? And we talked about how our identity has changed as being former chiropractors in a way.

It's tough, it's tough, yeah.

And I remember it took me a long time, like took me five years before I gave up my license, right? Because you know, my license was like, you know, I was just hanging on and hanging on and renewing it every year, but I haven't practiced in five years before I'm like, okay, what am I doing? I'm not going back. I mean, I still love adjusting. There was still never taken away from me being a chiropractor, but no longer a chiropractor that serves in a practice form. And so even though I was already removed mentally, I feel, but then I couldn't let it go completely. And that was a big switch five years later. I remember saying like, okay, I'm not gonna renew this year. It felt weird. It felt like, oh, I'm not gonna write that check to the government and say, I wanna renew. was like, this is a weird feeling even five years later, even though I haven't been in practice for that long. And so these things do come into mind and because even though I know about identity, I'd still get caught up in it. So I can imagine someone who's like, if they're a teacher and they were in the teacher for 30 years, that's all you've been identified as and now you retire, like who are you now? And because we never really thought past the identity that your identity isn't defined by your career, your identity is who you are as a human being, you know, whatever, I'm Lawrence Tam and that journey never ends until the day I actually die. And we can have the switch in mindset there changes the context on how you experience life.

Yeah, I think you're right because and particularly if you've defined not only your identity, but your associations, so your friendship groups, everybody is, is, is centered around a particular role on that. If you're a fireman and you only have ever hang around firemen and catch up with a fireman, suddenly you're out of that group. You don't feel the connection to it. And, you know, it's something really. interesting, um, me the other day. I was, I was walking home from training and you know, I'm in a group now where this is now the fourth Jiu-Jitsu club that I've, that I've trained with. And I always envisage being a one club person, circumstances have worked out that way. And you know how we, I think we've touched on it earlier on when you're younger by proximity, people around you, um, become your friends. You know, you rock up to school the first day. And the kid that's sitting next to you that annoys the hell out of you ends up being a really great friend because of proximity. But then as time goes on, you then become discerning and you can pick who it is. And then it can be, um, people who are associated with your sports and interests, et cetera. When you get older though, what happens is that's not the case. We're traditionally much harder to make friends and connections because you know, you don't have the 20, 30, 40 years of. commonality to lean on to establish that. So you have to keep getting redefining yourself, reestablishing yourself, putting yourself out there, recognizing that I can't rest on the connections that I had previously while they're good and they're all over the world. They're not in my neighborhood. And I think that that's a thing that I understood and it really hit me, hit home because I'm now the new guy. I'm the outsider of a club. where everybody's quite tight knit and they're a great group. They're a great bunch. But for me to be a part of that group, I have to keep progressing. can't rest on what authority or connections or trust or relationships have before. I have to keep adapting. And to me, it's a really good reference that connections, relationships are always ongoing. And you that's yeah, you can relate to that, I'm sure.

Thank Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love the way you're describing that because yeah, I mean, obviously it's close to home, but the reality is that, you know, you're moving into a new city. So let's reframe that, right? That's not a reframe. mean, let's talk about it frame it appropriately so people understand where I'm coming from. You know, you're going to a brand new city and you go into a club where majority of those people have already, I know at some point they were new to that club, right? But over time they've already established, let's call it a few years, they've established themselves in that club. And now you're the new guy. You're the guy who just shows up for the very first time. And they don't know Jim, Australian Jim. They don't know Spanish Jim, right? All they know is like, you're the new guy. And all of them as a group are thinking, do I like Jim or no, don't I like Jim? And so therefore your history matters nothing to them. So you actually have to go, then you have to put in the work, right? Which is where you're, what you're saying is like, oh my God, I gotta have to put in the work again. Like I have to start fresh. I have to like, not reinvent myself, but I just need to go like, I need to reestablish trust again. I need to reestablish, you know, who I am and tell them and then get them to trust me. And those are really difficult things as you get older because sometimes you get to a point like, man, this is just too hard. But to your point about relationship, that's exactly what has to happen, right? Is that when you're in, you're absolutely right. When we're younger, like you have the proximity and also the frequency, right? It's not just proximity, it's just the frequency of seeing them over and over again.

Yep. Yeah.

I still remember like I used to work in camps, like summer camps. And I used to live there for a whole entire month. Because we stayed overnight and we took care of kids and whatever. I was like 14 years old. I've done it for like 14, 15, 16. During my teenage years, I was living in the summer camps. I still remember and I still question, you know, as a young teenager, I was really weird for me that some of my closest friends were friends from the camps. And I wondered why, I'm like, why is it that I could be a friend with a 17 year old or an 18 year old when I was 14 or 15, closer to like my own grade, even though I would have only met them for one month. And over time, I kind of created an analysis of that, which was, had greater, even though the time was shorter, comparative to my school friends, but the exposure frequency was a lot greater, because I was living with them for 24 seven.

Thank

right for for a whole time or 30 days and I live with them and I get to know the the whole cycle of the day not just between nine and three you know and in a classroom setting I got to see and you know what happens at night time how do they act and and you know when when things are because when you want when you live with someone for 24 seven you get to see all the good stuff but also the bad stuff right When you're at work, you only see those moments. Sure, over time, you're gonna get to see some, but really people can still kind of go, okay, I have work, I'm doing this, but at home, I get to relax. I swear and whatever, right? That's very different. But if you're 24 seven, it's really hard to keep up. And so therefore I really felt that I bonded with those people, my camp friends, a lot closer than I did with school friends that I had spent a whole year with. And that was fascinating to me. And I think so it's not just, again, it's proximity, but frequency and duration. really does add to the intensity of those relationships and friendships. And what you're saying in these new environments that you got to put in the work, which means you got to put in the frequency, you got to put in the duration, you got to put in the effort if you want the connection with those groups.

Yeah, totally. and you know, like I've got friends throughout the world like you too. And so I've got calls with friends just this week, actually back in Australia, one in Spain, one in the U S and I get that connection part of it, but I'm just thinking in terms of, I don't know, out of all the things we talked about, that's the one that came through for me to go, Hey, I'm going to talk about relationships. I don't know why I've just, let's just go with it. But It really hit home that locally in this local community, you know, all my friends are out of the country, a lot of them. And, and so I have to work at it. And it gave me a level of empathy and understanding of people who, you know, go through their whole lives and their lives change, you know, circumstances, they lose some key people in their world and they're suddenly lonely and they haven't put the effort into establishing networks and connections and relationships. And we now know that loneliness is quite often a worse factor in terms of impacting your longevity than sometimes diet and smoking as well too. So there's a lot of studies that are showing about that. So you can keep working at it, but at a human fundamental level, we're wired for connection. And if we don't have that, then suddenly you get to where you go, Hey, I thought I'd get older and there'd be people around me and there's no one around. I don't know, didn't mean that to take a bleak trajectory there Lawrence, but I guess it shows that everything needs continuing effort and focus all the time, not just the things that we've spoken about traditionally.

Mm-hmm. Well, that's why I think it fits in well in this podcast with unfinished journey because the relationship is an unfinished journey, right? Because the reality is that it never ends. you know, for me, my journey, at least I can only speak from my own experience, but the friends I thought was my best friends in high school and that were different than my best friends were in university. And they were definitely best different than my chiropractic college friends and very different now when I was in Australia versus now that I'm no longer in Australia. Like, sure, certain people, right, have stayed with the trust of time. Like one of my closest friend when I was in, um, in elementary school, like since grade six, um, we're still friends, but I wouldn't say he's like my best friend because we don't actually communicate that often, but he was here. We spent three days together, but our conversation felt like we never like left. haven't, even though I haven't really seen him, I've maybe seen him like four times in the last 20 years and Those are the friendships that I still cherish because we still like really good friends when we're together, but we just don't communicate at the same level as if we were, you know, on a week to week basis because due to proximity, due to our lives, I never saw him because I moved to Australia and I never saw him raising his kids and his kids are in university now graduating actually literally just email the son's graduating and emailed me and go, Hey, you know, I just graduated from finance and uh, I want to go into investment banking. so do you have any advice or I heard you had some connections. I'm like, Oh, I'll speak to Jim as one of the people. anyways, it's like these kind of thought process is really interesting to me that, even though I've only because of our core relationship, we had all those years, like for at least three to four years, I used to be at his house almost every day. You know, even though I haven't spoken to him much over the last 20 years, we're still really good friends. And, but those friendships do change. Like, you know, there, there are certain friendships and I don't, I don't think I have. any friends from high school that are still left over, you know, I'm sure I can contact a lot of my university friends or especially chiropractic college friends. But they're not like best friends, but they can definitely contact them and have a good conversation with them. But what I'm saying to you is that the relationships that you have change, and that's the evolution of life. And but the one thing that's consistent between, you know, our friends, our lives is our wives, right? Our wives have been the

Yeah.

the longevity of the friendship that has been continual. But like anything else, if we treated that as finished journey, right, we will be divorced right now, right?

Yep. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. that, that, the, exactly right. The 1989 version of my and Bettina's relationship is totally different to the 2024. And it has to be because you know, you go through phases. He's the primary relationship. Every primary relationship starts with romantic love, right? And it has to start that way. And then the biggest problem that most people have a lot of times in relationship from, from talking to people and also my Assessment is they believe that that's going to be enough to last forever and it doesn't it goes through different stages and iterations and Develops and and there's different requirements and when you've got, know, if you've got a family you've got kids it changes the dynamic it like it's constantly evolving and I think the biggest Realization we're not going to look back and do a Steve Jobs and connect the dots look at backwards I think it's that ability to actually appreciate the stage that you're in And except that, okay, here's what it is. What do we need to do to work through this stage? Because you know, when we were at a young, young child, we're like, and sleepless nights and believe me, they'll brutal. We're like, all I want to do is just that they're old enough to run around and we can sleep and then they slept. then the little buggers, you have to chase them around everywhere. And you go, all I want is for you to just be independent and you can look up and they become teenagers and that becomes the challenges. So there's always these. adaptations that you have to make and you never quite actually get to the point and go ta-da it's done no more problems no more problems there's only one time that that happens and you've checked out

Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny. I just had this conversation with my son. Um, he's 13 years old and, know, he, were walking around, I don't know, Spain somewhere or on holiday last week and we were walking and, and, and he, he mentioned, he opened up and said, you know, one of the challenges I have is, um, he gets nostalgic, like, it's seem, and he says, he seems like it's getting worse and like, meaning he gets really sad about, you know, memories.

Mm.

And this was actually, I remembered when, because we were just about to leave Madrid. So we just spent about a week in Seville in Madrid and near the second last day, he gets really nostalgic of like, oh man, this holiday's over and we've got to go back to school. And so he gets that way. And he's like, it's affecting him like in other areas of life. He gets nostalgic around, you know, last year's class or last year's friends or... you know, things that happened before. And he's like, it's, seems like he's getting worse. And I go, well, I go, it doesn't, and I don't know if this is gray divide or so, not advice, but the thing I said to him, I go through the reality is that you need to understand is that life is moving forward regardless. And it's not, it's not a bad thing to be nostalgic about the past, but it's about if you only crave the past and not look for the future, then you're really only stuck in the past. And there's like three timeframes you're always looking at. You got the past, you got the present and the future. And In my life, I kind of think about it as like, you can't get stuck on any one of them. Like you have to rotate constantly between those three things. You've got to juggle between all three. Because I think if you only focus on the present, you don't actually have something to look forward to in the future and don't know in what direction you're going. And you actually never look in the past because you never learned from the lesson of the past. But if you focus on the past, the same thing happens in the, you know, you're not in the present because you're stuck in the past of what you missed and you're not looking towards the future. But if you're stuck in the future, the same thing, you're not learning. you're not feeling the present. So like, you can't really be in any one of these things only. I think it's important for you to recognize that there's past, present, and future, and you need to constantly rotate them around depending on the situation that you're supposed to be in. If we're doing goal setting and brainstorming, yeah, we should focus on the future, right? If you want to remember the memories and making yourself, know, what are great things about you, yeah, you want to go to the past. But if you're living the moment and meditating and just want to feel in the present, you need to be in the present. So like, you got to rotate and transition. And so what I mentioned to him, I go like, I explained exactly what you said to him, right? So, about the kids, I'm like, when you were young, when you were a baby, I'm like, oh my God, I don't want to lose you. But also, no, I can't wait to like, you know, when we can hold your hand and get to you for a walk. And you know, now that he's 13, like, he's literally taller than me now, right? And you know, I said to him like, as much as I love like hanging out with you now, like right now we can have a conversation, can, you know, do I miss when you were a baby? Yeah. Do I miss holding you and just hugging you? Yeah, hell yeah. I dearly miss that.

you

But I don't regret this though. Right. And I don't regret, you know, being able to have a, a, you know, maybe a trip with just a father and son trip somewhere. I don't miss that opportunity for maybe we can go to a restaurant or a bar or somewhere else, or, know, go to a game or something. We're really interested in together. Right. I couldn't have done that when you were five, because that's sometimes something you were interested in. You were interested in the wiggles, you know, but like now we can get it together. We can go into, we can compete. can't wait till you beat me in a race one day.

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

because he still can't, right? He's close, but he can't still. Right, so it's like those type of things I go and try to explain to him, I go, it's like, it's okay to be nostalgic in the past, but you also have to find something in the future that you could look forward to, so that you can feel like you're striving for something. And this goes to the same point about unfinished journeys, is that life is an unfinished journey. And so it is a mindset of appreciating that life is moving one second at a time as you're listening to this or watching this. regardless of how we want the whole time still, we may as well learn to embrace what's coming up next and continue to look forward to what's happening or what's gonna happen.

Yeah, look, that's beautiful. think you articulated, um, just the magic. I, I, I honestly, I got really emotional when you're talking about carrying kids. Um, and I love that some of my favorite moments and now good luck if I tried to carry my own, they lift me up now, you know, it's actually, it's a different kind of dynamic, but you know, like you chair, look back fondly and ref and when I reflect regularly and I try and take the lesson.

Exactly.

But the difference is, like you just said, is that I look at it not from a perspective of that's as good as it's going to be. It's more a case of how can I cherish those moments and create new memories? And, you know, when I look back, particularly with our kids, you know, I look at it and say, hey, it was beautiful when you were young. And then as you got older, I got to play still out of all the career that I played, I played cricket for 15 years, 16 years. And had a lot of individual. uh, accolades and w and awards and wins and victories. The best moment I ever had was when I walked on a seniors game with both my boys and the three was played in the game and I did nothing personally. I didn't have a great game. So, but that moment was the greatest moment that I've had in there. And so, you know, I don't, I don't play cricket with them anymore. Like, but what now I look at that and I say, okay, well now we're iterating and now We get together and they were recently here from New York and London, and we just had an awesome time hanging out for two or three days. And it's different, the relationship. So I'm nostalgic in pockets and moments, but then I realized that it's not a loss. It's actually a progression. It's an evolution into iteration. It's a development of the relationship into amazing men. Um, as time goes on. And it's the same thing with Bettina where I just go, there's no point wishing we were. in our mid twenties again, because, um, that I don't want to be mid twenties again, to be honest. I really enjoy the learning and the wisdom and all that kind of stuff. It's an embracing that. And finally, I was, was talking to a friend back in Australia just by message the other day. And I saw he's a guy in Jiu Jitsu, he's in his fifties as well. And it was kind of like one of these wild hogs moments, you know, the motorbike ride when the old boys are still riding, trying to go, isn't that great? We could still keep doing this. I'll go, yeah. Sure is. said, by the way, I've dropped something off the ground. can't pick it up right now, but that's okay. But I just, wouldn't change it. You know, we're kind of like these old crusty blokes who just doing that. But I don't, I don't go to jujitsu to be a world champion. go there because I am a better human and I'm around people that challenge me. I learned something about myself. It's a different relationship to what it was earlier and it's okay. And it's embracing that.

Ahem. Well, I would love to go back to my mid-20s if I could, but only with one stipulation that I actually can carry the wisdom and experience that I already have.

Shit. Yeah. I said, that's it. Yeah, of course. Who wouldn't want to do that? Who doesn't want to their 25 year old, but it's like, mate, there's 30 years of mistakes and I don't have to relive again. No, thank you. You know, I've got plenty ahead of me that I'll just, but you know, it's just right now. Yeah. If I, if I could go straight back to 25 physicality with everything I knew, no question, Laura. So that was a, I didn't stipulate that, but um,

Yeah.

Yeah, if you've to give it all up, no, I don't want to go through that again.

That is funny. So I love to kind of hear your perspective around, you know, this unfinished business. has been the time? What's something that you are, that you kind of see as an unfinished business on your day to day life? Like, is there particular areas? Like, I mean, I'll pick one just so that you can kind of get you thinking. Like obviously our physicality is like an unfinished business. I do feel though, you know,

Yeah.

You're in the 50s and I'm about to approach 50 and I do feel like my physicality of like it's really just like I'm trying to hold on to not lose anymore. I don't know if you feel that way. So it's not really about gains anymore. I feel like it's flipped now. It's almost like I'm trying to hang on as much as I possibly can.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. And the only way you can hang on is keeping training, right? Because the only thing that stops the slide is continue. So I've started 75 hard again. I'm day 10. Yeah. Day 10. Because it was slipping. Like I was already doing, I'm already training regularly, but I just needed that edge, right? Because I was getting tired of rocking up.

Oh wow, good for you, good for you.

uh, to training and just getting, you know, pushed around by, I went, ah, this is annoying me. So I just, it was just a little bit of slippage. And so for me, the working harder isn't necessarily that I'm going, Hey, I'm, you know, 40 % stronger. No, no, no. It's like, you're able to hold onto that level of strength for another three months. Um, but that's it. That's yeah. So it is hard and there has to be the. Clint Eastwood famously said, you know, man's got to know his limitations. And I will always push up against as far as and as much as I can get out of myself. But I've gotten to a point of time where I'll go, listen, you know, be sensible about this, right? You can still keep getting the best out of yourself, but the best out of yourself now has to be calibrated to where you're at in life. It's not a failing in you. It's not, you're not committed. It's just.

Hmm.

It's just life, dude. And embrace that and just do the best you can. And that's enough.

Yeah. And that's hard to switch off as you, as you get older. And this is the, uh, the, journey that I think, you know, as you, know, that some of you already there and some of you are probably, we'll get there sooner or later. And I mean, I play paddle with this one guy and he's in his sixties. I didn't actually realize he was in the sixties because he looks younger. Like I felt like it may be five, six years older than me, but, um, he's actually in his sixties and he dies for balls, uh, on the court. Like what you would, a 20 year old would do.

100%.

You know, like I'm pretty fast on the court and I can make those dives and so can he. And so when we play together as partners, it's like, can't, you can't just take those things. You can't take us out. Like you, can take us out, but you have to be pretty precise. We'll go after those. We'll go after those balls that are just drop shot in front of us and we'll make those shots. But recently, um, he, he went after a ball and during training and, um, misstepped and then crashed into the fence and like cut his hand, like, you know, pretty deeply against the fence. um, you know, five, six stitches and, and, you know, and he's like lesson learned, like he was out for six weeks and that's the problem, right? When you're, when you hurt yourself and this is like, this is for CrossFit, for Jiu-Jitsu, for anything else, you can take yourself out. Like, you know, sensibly you shouldn't, but you think you still can because your brain is still like a 20 year old, but your body's, you know, not functioning as a 20 years, a 50 year old or 60 year old in his case. And the problem is, is that when you get hurt, you're take yourself out of the game. Right. And this happens to me in CrossFit all the time because it's like, I know I could do more and I probably should try to push myself harder, but then I also know that is it really smart? Like just to get the one, my one RM, you know, personal best, the one time which couldn't like take my back out for the next two weeks of training. Like, is it really worth it? And I learned how to like learn to scale down. Even today I was like, you know, the RX rate was like 24 kilograms for a kettlebell. And like, I just came back from a week of Spain with doing nothing and eating a lot of Spanish food. And I'm like,

Yeah.

do I really need to go to a 24 RX? Can I just scale this down to like a 20 and still get a good workout? Yes, I can. That's like, this is being smart. Cause I don't want to, I still want to be able to work out this week to kind of catch up and you know, to get back to, you know, somewhat or normality. And those are the things that's really hard to turn down. And it's like, you got to be really self-aware, but I think you're, what you're saying is like, it's, it's being aware, but number two is also being okay with it because that's the challenge for us to be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

it's oftentimes we're not okay with it. I don't because you think that by scaling down or taking it easy and not going after some of those shots, yeah, you could make it but then but is it is the impact worth it? Right? Because and the consequences of that could be detrimental. And and I think that that type of thinking does require a rewiring of instincts sometimes.

Yeah, yeah.

And I just played with him for the first time after six weeks. hasn't played on Saturday on Sunday. And that's exactly what I, there was a ball that was just dropping in front of us and I can see him going for it, but he just dialed back. like, you're learning, you're learning, right? It's just not worth it. Right. And, and, but again, that's very, very hard to switch off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It it does take a while. you know, it's here, we, you know, living in Scotland here, right across the road from our house is a beautiful Lord bowls club, right? Magnificent Lord bowls club, right? And Martina just goes, how do you want to join? I've got to shut up. No, I'm not going to join up there. Not at all. Don't, don't stir me. But what's really fascinating is one these, you know, when we first got here, just before it started getting cold and we had the windows open, you could hear the old boys and girls bowling. And you know what?

Yes.

You would be forgiven to think that you're like, they're still trash talking to each other as if they're 20s, right? And none of them can bend over and pick up the ball. They've got these automatic little holder things that lift up the ball, but they're still getting out there and having fun. And to me, I love that because they're out there, they're connecting, they're having fun, they're getting the best out of themselves. They know that they can't get right down or, but that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. They're still engaged in it on their terms.

Right. Yeah.

And if you compare yourself to a previous physical version of yourself, if that's what you're comparing yourself to, you're going to, you're going to basically disappoint yourself, but it's about just going, Hey, I'm still doing this. Like my mate that I was talking to about Jiu Jitsu, I'm still doing this in my fifties, man. And, and sure, I've got, I'm not, I'm not, I can't compare myself to a 25 year old world champion. That's not about the point, but, um, when I'll go up against you in your fifties and you're going for it, and I am. I'll give you the best I got and I'm comfortable with that. And I think that that's, that when I talk about having that special moment with my kids, it wasn't that we were all at the same level. No, they were on the incline while I was on the decline, we just kind of happened to meet each other at that four to six week period where there was an overlap and our skills were matched. And that was awesome, you know, but I can't sustain that. And there's a humility that you have to acknowledge.

Yeah.

which I think comes with experience and maturity where you actually go, I can't do that. Or I don't want to do that anymore. Or just because I can doesn't mean I should, or I will. And that to me is something that, you know, how many times people achieve an outcome and then they go, Hey, here's an opportunity. Here's another job again in that field. And you go, you know what? No, I don't want to do that anymore. I've evolved. I've moved on. I've adapted. I'm not defined by just this one component. have capacity to keep reinventing myself. And to me, I think when you stay with that perspective and just going, it may look different moving forward to what previously is, but I'm still growing. think that's a really healthy thing to do.

Yeah, the reality of life is that it's like we always constantly comparing ourselves to our old version. We want to constantly improve. And I think it's really helpful to just not compare to others, but compare ourselves to are we improving? But then what we're talking about is there's a certain point where you start to realize that like it's actually on the downhill. Like you've actually crossed over that chasm that you can't really go back to. You're not actually improving now. You're just like trying to maintain the slow down.

Yeah.

And I've crossed, I feel like I'm kind of almost there, right? And it's frustrating at the same time, but it was also accepting. And what you said about the boulders across the street is that they realize, and there's a realization in your head that has to be made that the community, the sense of competition, the sense that you're still outdoors and doing things that you love, it has more meaning at that age than it is to, you be the best or be the champion or whatever it is that you're comparing yourself to.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it does take, as I said, it takes, you know, people fight it. look at, gosh, you've got to look at celebrities who are fighting the age barrier and who haven't come to terms and groups with it. And traditionally they're in an industry that rewards youth and punishes age and that doesn't celebrate it, you know? And so they're struggling with it because there's payoff to staying and maintaining youth. But it's really funny, a bartender will kill me. She may not be listening to this one. So I'll make sure this episode I don't get to hear, but she decided a few years ago, listen, I'm tired of dying my hair. I'm just going to let it go gray, right? So that's, um, and, I think it, like when I met her mom years ago, um, you know, some people with gray hair just softens their face. makes them look as though there's a softness. It's a beautiful thing. And her mom who's down to 80 still has a useful look about it. And you know, Bettina will, will as well too, which is, which is wonderful, but Bettina is also a powerlifter and, um, And so what's really, really funny is that people in society will go, we'll say this, you know, little old lady with gray hair and be really gentle. They'll get up for her. And I just laugh my guts out on, on, on a train. People would get up and these really polite Spanish boys would get up and I'm just laughing and pretending to go and shut up, be quiet. But the number of times that, that, you know, she'd go into the supermarket and just lift up the bags and put them on there. And then the attendants trying to move them. can't shift them or some well-meaning person says, would you like to take the things to your car? And they can't lift them up. It's hilarious. Absolutely hilarious. She just picks them up like they're nothing. it's just, it's really quite funny. So it reaffirms that one of the last areas that we lose strength in is in your grip strength. And she's actually maintained that exceptionally well.

Hmm.

So I get plenty of mileage laughing at that.

Yeah, well. Well, I mean, the whole point, guess, is what we're trying to get to is really the, you know, accepting the beauty of the change of the unfinished journey. The journey is always continuing. And if you live this life long enough, it starts to kind of change its meaning. And, and you, by you adapting to those meanings, you will find the beauty in it. But if you don't, if you hang it on to the past, which is what my son kind of was referring to. And I also, by the way, on the side note, I did agree with him. Like when I was your age, I was always thinking about the past too. Like I was always nostalgic. And you know, it's not until you later, and this is the evolution of life, as we get older, we do have different thought process. We do have different thinking. We do have different goals and purposes and everything else. And this is that unfinished journey, that unfinished journey, meaning like, if you live this experience long enough and you allow it to play out, don't fight the resistance of it. You do start to realize that things do change and things do kind of come to some equilibrium. And you, it's about doing enough to fight against the traditional way of thinking, but also knowing and accepting the reality of life. And I think finding that balance can be very difficult for some people because, your brain, like I said, I think the physicality ages faster than our brain, at least how we think, because we have a certain identity that doesn't change that much over time, whereas our physicality, start to realize that if you have, especially if you haven't taken care of it, starts to deteriorate very, very rapidly.

Yeah. And you talked about a physicality and what you also talked about there was the, growth mindset and being able to stay open to sustaining levels of growth and not being fixed and rigid and stuck in cryogenics where you're thinking that this is how it is. This is how it always will be. It's, it's evolving and adapting. And I think perhaps the mind, uh, just as, know, we focused a lot about the physical, maybe it's because we're feeling the physical demands and the ravages of father time. Um, but. But equally important, you can still be nimble and open-minded well into your 80s and 90s. And you can still keep creating great things just in a different form if you're open to it and accepting that, okay, up until now, this was what it was. as you said, when you've got these business people cashing out in their businesses in their 30s, they've got a long time ahead. the hardest thing that I think, I'm now technically of the age where I could check into an over 55 year retirement. I could not imagine doing that at all. I can't imagine doing that, right? I know, I know. I'm technically, then the other day we walked past the bus and pretend I got on this bus and she goes, and she just doesn't stir, goes, cause I've got a birthday coming up, she goes.

Hmm That makes me laugh.

You know, in a few years you're eligible for pensioners free travel. mean, get out, you know, like that. But technically, so to me, it's, it's, it's not denial. It's, it's using it in jest, but realizing that, know what, there's still, there's so much left that I want to enjoy. I don't want to, you know, and that's, can't imagine a 30 something year old getting to their peak or even someone like a Nadia Cominich getting to the highest and highest and highest point.

Yeah.

as a teenager and going, that's the best that I will ever be at something. You know, there has to be a progression and finding different meaning and different experiences and different challenges that give you joy in life. Otherwise you're going to be stuck in the fast all the time.

Hmm. Yeah, and so for the thing for the people who are listening who are younger, it's the same thing is to recognize that these are chapters, right? It's like there's one chapter finishes and there's another chapter or if it's a one, you know, chapter or book, there's another book coming, you know, there to continue this journey. And I think that's really important to recognize that there's a part one, a part two and part three, you know, a trilogy in your life. And it's a recognizing in which part you're actually in, not that the end of like, you're just not just the one book and that's it. There's always like a second book and a third book. in you and there's more chapters in you and recognizing that so that you're constantly trying to evolve and finding that time. Like what I get encouragement is, you know, we talked a lot about physicality and you're absolutely right, but it's not just physicality, it's the mental, right? And I start to realize that, you know, that I start to, what I get encouragement from is like a lot of these people who are in their seventies that are just functionally and also mentally still active. and passionate about life. know, I listen to, like a lot of the financial guys, you know, sometimes you listen to you like, these guys are in their seventies and they're like still like, right.

Buffett's 94. Buffett is 94 and he's as sharp as you can ever imagine. It's insane.

Yeah. And that's what I mean. Like that's encouraging, right? That's encouraging. Like that's where I kind of look up to these guys to go, yeah, I want to be like that too. Like I don't want my brain to shut off. So, but in order to do that, you have to, I think physically you have to be somewhat stronger. Like you got to be strong enough to kind of maintain that so that you can basically you're delaying, um, delaying the, the, the slow down, but you're extending that, longevity. so that you can actually still be active and do the things you want to do. Now you might not be able to do what you want. I know that I won't be able to do, maybe I won't, maybe I'm lying, but I know I most likely can't do what I would be at 70, what I can do now, but doesn't mean I still can't enjoy parts of those things, but mentally being mentally sharp to be active and still be focused, but you need to have something to look forward to. And if you're not changing, if you're not like as an author of your own book, like you're not thinking about how this next book will be. and always thinking about the next book on how that will unfold in your life, the book of life, then I think it comes as like, okay, it's like retirement. It's like, okay, this trilogy is done. It's complete. The rest of my life, I'm gonna sail off in the sunset. And I think that's when our, we almost mentally telling our brain, it's like, okay, you can shut down now. And I think that's scary. And I don't know how it'll be in 20, the next 20 years or the next 50 years, but I definitely know that that. One thing, by looking forward to something, building more new relationships, building new connections, building new skill sets will make a massive difference in terms of where life will take you.

Well, we're probably sitting in our retirement deck chairs somewhere in the world. Lowers who knows probably episode 4,000, know, 45,000 something or other talking about how things still aren't perfect. And it's just a case of just adapt. Just go with it.

Yeah. We'll change the podcast to two imperfect guys, two imperfect old men. So guys, I hope you enjoy that particular podcast. I hope that you are looking at your life and seeing that it is unfolding to be unfolding to the journey that you need to be. And if you're not happy the direction of where it's going, you also have the opportunity to know that you can change anything at any given moment and change direction. It might not happen right away. But most of the time is that if you steer in the right direction, you'll get to the place you actually obviously want to be. So I hope you enjoyed this podcast of Wabi Sabi, the art of imperfection. and I will get back to you on our next episode with a new topic. Talk to you soon.