Authentic Leadership

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Welcome to the Wabi Sabi Podcast. This is the Wabi Sabi of the art of imperfection. As we do always, Jim and I are here to discuss all things, all topics around life and how it is always slightly imperfect and that's the way we like it. So Jim, this week you had some things in context or some calls with some clients and some people that brought up an issue that you feel like it's gonna be worthy of talking about. I really like it.

Yeah.

but I think I need to have some sort of definition of it first so that we can actually understand that we're both on the same page, otherwise we'll be talking two different answers as we start this podcast. So Jim, over to you.

Yep. Great. Okay. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks, Lawrence. Well, this thing, this week was really interesting because there were several clients that I was coaching who had issues that they needed to address with team. You know, they were made to be major challenges themselves and how they went about it was different. So each and every one of them came and said, Hey, listen, I'm having this challenge in my business life and well, how do you think I should work around this. And interestingly, knowing the people, if it was a cookie cutter approach and said, you've got to do this, it would have been the incorrect strategy for all of them because they each had to do it their own individual way. So there were general principles and guidelines and you could, you know, I like to talk generally and lead people to what they could do. However, it wouldn't have hit the mark if it was a case of This is what you do. You do. So authentic leadership is number one, starting from a place of having a lot of self-awareness around self and going, who am I and how do I express leadership through those qualities? So that's authentic leadership in an essence, right? So, so, you know, I'll give some context to it and perhaps you can jump in and, and include some wisdom in that as well too. So one of the, one of the clients had faced a significant.

Yeah, perfect.

challenge where they were kind of blindsided by a team member who was let go because of what was perceived as unfair dismissal. So the clients feel they had just cause to do that, the person who was let go doesn't necessarily feel that way and it's kind of escalated in that result. So what that then did was obviously as a leader and I've been in that scenario, I've been in that scenario where we had to let someone go, someone didn't like it or appreciate that. And we had to go through the process. And even though you're right, I'm not sure if you've ever gone through that scenario, Lawrence, but sometimes even when you're right, you have to make a concession that doesn't feel right to you. However, you just go, I've just got to keep these things moving. And so these people needed to, I guess what I let them know was, okay, your team are looking around at how you're responding to this.

Mm-hmm.

And they need to see and they need to have buy-in into the leader about how to handle it. Because if they don't, you're going to lose the support and the confidence of your team. So it was drawing awareness to them to go, hey, I get you've got a challenge. I really appreciate that. And let's address it. However, have the awareness of how you showing up is impacting people around you.

Yeah, so I think one of the key things that it brings up in this brings up to me several incidences that not even just in leadership or decision making or in this particular instance, or regards to hiring and firing, it comes up over and over again, and it's usually down due to this one fact around, um, your short term or longterm thinker and meaning like you can either approach a situation for short term gain, which is feel good in the moment. Or you're thinking about this from a long-term perspective, which means most likely you're going to have a consequence of the short-term, which means it's not going to feel good in the moment and you're going to have to ride through some pretty difficult period of time, but you know in the long run that it's going to be beneficial, but you got to go through the hardship first. And this applies to exercise. This applies to investing. It applies to learning something that's a new skill. All of these things apply to the same rule, right? So in this instance, like how this person needs to react or should react, it really does depend on that answer because are we in for short-term gain or we're in it for the long-term vision? And that's what puts us into this dilemma, right? And each one of us are put into these challenges, which is, do I want to feel good in the moment to make myself right or feel good to just do whatever it needs to do to keep things rolling, keep things moving? Or do I think about the long-term vision, how it actually impacts the whole culture of the business, culture of the team, and also will I ever be regretful of this decision or how I act in this and behave in this moment? And I think those contexts need to be put into place. And then if you choose that route, usually it's gonna be uncomfortable. Otherwise you would have chose, it would have been the perfect fit, right? But then usually that doesn't happen. And I think that's the dilemma that most people kind of fall into place. It seems like that's the case.

Yeah.

in this instance.

Yeah, you know, that's right. That's right. And I think there's merit in splitting those words up, right? Splitting up authentic and leadership. So if you look at the word authentic, there's a lot of talk about being authentic, right? So, you know, what is authenticity? You know, what is someone who you can look and say, I get the essence of you is an authentic presentation. So what does that mean to you when I say that, Lawrence?

Mmm. Yeah, I think that word's been thrown around for so much in the last, I would say five years or more, maybe. Actually, probably more. I would say the last decade. And that, and I think it's because the term has been used, and it's kind of a cool word to use at the beginning. I think a lot of people have used it over and over again, and used it in different contexts. And I think the meaning has changed for a lot of people, what authentic means. So I think it's great. Let's

Yep.

kind of define what authentic means to us first, and then we can kind of move on from there. So authentic, I think that the proper definition of authenticity is about you being truly in line with everything that you do and say and feel on the internal and how you see the world, versus about what you think the world needs you to act and behave accordingly to the world and societies. viewpoint and perception. That's, I've never thought about it that way, but that's, I feel like that's my definition around that it's really more about the internal guidance not being, so basically more inside out thinking and being that will be the primary directive and guidance for your behavior and actions versus relying on a secondary source which is usually outside in kind of perception to guide your principles and your decision making.

Yep. And that's how I see it as well too, really in a, in a way you're acting in what would be considered a real, a genuine or sincere way. Right? So you're acting from that place as in what is, what is at your core, what constitute you and you're right. This it's a term that's been banded around a lot over the last few years. And there was, I think there's been this breakaway area where you're being authentic meant that you, you dress down, you swore more, you did all these kind of things, which was. There was a rebelliousness about it. And I think there's people who saw some people being themselves who really just copied that and thought that was authenticity. And that wasn't, you know, like if you are the person, like I'm a, I'm, I've grown up shirt and tie kind of person. Right. And to me, I'm being authentic when I'm actually dressing up that way. I actually liked that. Or I really liked presenting that well. I can also be really comfortable and laid back, whatever, but If I'm going to present to a workplace to, you know, if something's really important, whatever I'm going to show, I'm going to express that authentically. And that is my style. I don't have to be cussing and swearing and stuff because it's cool if that's not me. Right. So I think that there's a really big confusion for people when they hear authenticity, they actually, they actually look at it as I have to do what everybody else does, but you're missing the point because that's not actually being authentic again.

I think the confusion is for most people is that they take someone's true authenticity and go, oh, let's use an example. I know who you would talk about, like Gary V, Gary Vaynerchuk, would be a perfect example of like someone who swears a lot and is very passionate about what he says and does. And he is very motivating and inspiring for a lot of people. And when he speaks, you know, the truths that he speaks on, you think, wow, that's so authentic. This is so raw. And usually because it's raw, when I say raw, mostly because it is in contrast to what you've normally have heard or seen at that moment in time. And so what I mean by that is like nowadays, if I saw Gary V, Gary V kind of came out of nowhere now, I probably, and the Gary version one was already there in existence or someone like him, I don't think that I would be saying that same thing because

Yep.

it wouldn't be such a contrast to the current reality, if that makes sense. And new trends usually pop up because it's very different and it contrasts really nicely against what is the norm. Another example is Mark Manson's, I think it's Mark Manson's book, you know, not to give an F, I can't remember his exact title. And.

Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, yeah. The art of not giving a F, yeah, yeah.

That's the, yeah, the art of, yeah, the art of not give the art of the subtle art of not giving an F, right? And having a swear word on the title, he fought long and hard with the publishers because at that time, no one ever dared to do that. But have you noticed that it is actually kind of, that's a bother me, but it's just like, it's annoying that like, you see at least four or five titles now on the, on the bookshelf with, and it's like.

Yeah, they've actually followed that path. That's a trend, yeah.

Right. And that's to me, it's almost that. So let me go back to that point. It's like, we, we think of someone who's being authentic, and that's who they authentically are. And we, we misinterpret that as going, Oh, that's authenticity, which is their authenticity, because I met Gary V. And a couple times, both times I have conversations with him, he is like that, like, he literally talks as he is.

Yeah.

if he's on stage, and he's no different if you talk on one-on-one, do he's on stage, he's, I mean, obviously there's amped up versions of, you know, a presentation style, but really he is that person. He's just, he's genuinely good guy, right? He's generally, what you see on stage is real. And so that authenticity, so I can speak to his real authenticity, and when you apply that to someone's brain, he goes, oh, that's what I need to be. Misinterpreting that his authenticity is your own authenticity, which is not the same.

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

So therefore they start swearing or do that. That's what you're talking about. And that is where the misinterpretation goes. Like taking on someone's authenticity, thinking that's yours, not realizing that's their authenticity. When they say, go, you gotta be real and be authentic. You gotta look, the problem is now you need to do deeper work on yourself to figure out what is my authenticity? How do I show up in the world? And how do I really, how do I love and how do I see the world?

Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's the part that in listening to Gary V, you trust there's a consistency. You know, if I meet you at home, I meet you socially, I meet you on stage. I'm getting the same. I get the sense that there's congruency there. And that's to me what I'm talking about authenticity. And it's not about swearing. Yeah, I'll swear. But I don't use it as a means of shock value or attraction. I remember Tony Robbins talking about this, saying that when people swear, it's a pattern interrupt. So some people deliberately use it as a means of, oh, stopping and getting someone's attention, or basically just stopping that patterning. So that's the deliberate part of it. And if that, there are people that I know that, I didn't, they use swear words as an adjective, a verb, everything, they've got every conjugation that you can possibly imagine, but they're comfortable and they're themselves. And you go, they're being authentic. And who...

Yes.

knows them and loves them, loves them for the fact that they're being themselves. That's really what I'm talking about from an authentic point of view. Right. If you, so really, if you've got a business, if you've got a relationship, a friendship, whatever, and you are being yourself, chances are you're more likely to attract the people who are sort of a drawn to that as opposed to being a watered down version or a version of not really yourself. And there's a difference about being professional. But fundamentally, being authentic allows you to relax to a level where you accept and appreciate and love yourself for who you are. And as a result, attract people into your world who celebrate that, that don't make that elements of you wrong.

Exactly. And I think the authenticity part comes into play for a lot of us is that when you are trying to be someone else, you actually, because the reason why you want to be that person is you think you want their audience, you want their success, you want their fame, you want what they have, and then you try that on. But what the problem is, you're competing against someone who is truly authentic, and you're trying something that you're not. And that's such a deal.

You're dead in the water. You're dead in the water because you can't... It's like someone's a leader and someone's a follower. And if you're leading with you being yourself, someone's really just making a bad, at best, copy of that version and that's not really them. That's my whole point.

And yeah, the challenge I think you got to, we all have to do is that we have to recognize that we are unique in our own way. Not like in a special thing, like in a sense where you're so special, but we have to know that you, each and every single one of us listening to, watching this is unique to a degree because there's no one else actually like you. No one looks exactly like you that has the exact same experience that you have, who've gone through the...

Hmm.

the turmoil and success of you actually accumulated over your life and has the same life that you've lived. It's very rare, if not impossible, to live exactly the same, even for a twin, to live exactly the same way. So therefore, the authenticity needs to come through is for you to be able to be comfortable and live in that. And I think oftentimes that what we forget is we try to hide, and this is what I think authenticity really, really is, to show up authentic. authentically is about not trying to hide the worst sides of you, right? Not try to just only show the good things of what people expect of you, or the expectations of what you're only supposed to show. If you look at the people who are successful when showing authenticity, they have the vulnerability, which is another word that gets tossed around a lot, but they do have the vulnerability to be able to share.

Yep. Mm.

the imperfection of their lives, the imperfection of who they are, and they embrace it rather than hiding it. But that's a very difficult challenge, I will must admit that, is very difficult to show the dark side of you. Most of us wouldn't. I know I don't all the way through, but I'm more readily to be able to share how I am imperfect, or how I am not the best, you know.

Yep. Hmm. Yep. Yep.

expert in ABC. But to be really real to going, this is what I do know, this is what I don't know. And be okay with that rather than trying to always sound smart. I think one of the things that you know, as a speaker, one of the biggest thing I always wanted to do is that I wanted people to feel that the person you see on stage is the person that you meet in person if we were having dinner or coffee.

Yep.

obviously like different amplifications of that, but I am truly the exact same person I am on a podcast to if we were having a conversation one.

Yeah. You know, I think when we began this journey, or the podcast, that was really clear. I think I might have mentioned to you, or you mentioned to me, I've forgotten who did, but let's just assume one of us did, that this whole journey and process of us presenting a podcast in a deliberate way to be authentic and to be raw and to actually show the soft underbelly. was a really authentic process for both of us because there was, I think I mentioned to you, there were perceptions of who we are and what we're like by virtue of our branding. And that was both a deliberate intention in both our respective brands. However, what we've actually said is, okay, when you get to know us, you get to know that, but the perception, what we present to the world was deliberate and it was deliberate because that was our... our spill, that was our target audience. That's really who we're trying to present to. However, on a one to one or a one to many, when you're communicating, here's who we are. That's the authenticity part of it. And that's been, people have known you and I for a long time individually and collectively have commented to me specifically that seeing an element of that in us has been great because they realize that, okay, now that you're modeling it for me, so you can see what that looks like for me. So it's not about I'm going to be like them, rather they've seen what the journey and experience has been and it's modeled it for them to go, okay, how can I apply that in my world?

Yeah, absolutely. And that intention is so important. And that's actually probably one of the things that we should probably talk about in terms of authenticity. Authenticity really requires intention, and intention of, because that really does matter. Because if your intention is about, how do I drive more clicks? If my intention is, how do I look good? How can I stay looking good in this moment? I'm not talking about just the physical look, I'm just being pervasive perception. of the worldview of who I am. If you care more about that than the authenticity of what you really truly are about and what you wanna say or what you wanna talk about or what you stand for, then that's going to be shown. And I think that's not really true authenticity if your intention is only about the worldview and perception. I think if the intention is for you to live a very congruent life, a very aligned life, I'm sure we all strive to do that. And I say strive.

Yeah.

because I don't think none of us actually do it completely, 100%. I rarely have come across people who have fully aligned. I know, because I'm not, you know, I will preach something or I'll talk about something. And I remember I'm very careful about when, you know, when I was a practitioner, I was always careful about the advice I gave because if it was an advice that I don't actually follow through. I've done this on podcasts. If I give you any, if I give any advice on this podcast, for as an example, that I know I don't do, I will always preface it to say, now I won't, I don't do this, but I, just so that you know, but I really think that you should do X, I will preface it just to make sure you know, like, cause I don't want to get caught out to say that, hey, you know, you say you work out with the, and yet you don't, and you don't show up. And I don't want to be part of that, right? But does it mean that advice is not?

Hmm. Yeah. Alright.

good or great for that person because it is true, but it may not be true for me because I'm too lazy or whatever to do that thing, but the advice still goes through because it may help that person make an impact.

Yeah, okay, great. So we've talked about authenticity and I think we've got a pretty good understanding in terms of how we've explained it, what we see authenticity. Let's go to leadership before we bring them together. So when we talk about leadership, to me, I consider it from both perspectives. Number one, leading of self and then leading of others. So how do you expand on leadership and what are some key factors and determinants you think that make a good leader?

always. Well, before we kind of go, I like the way you said that about leader yourself. And I think I mentioned this before, but for me, like leadership is about, you can't lead, you can't lead a world or group of people unless you learn to lead yourself. When you learn to lead yourself, you can lead now one other person. And then when you're able to lead another person, then you have a chance of late leading a small group of people, maybe a handful. And when you're able to lead a small group of people, then you have a chance of, you know, be able to lead a group of people, a community of people. And when you have a chance to be able to lead a group of community people, then you have a chance of, you know, leading a city, say. And then when you get a chance to lead the city, then you have a chance to make an impact on a state. And then a country, and then the world. So it all begins with you. And so leadership, I think, is about, you know, I think is the word lead. And that's being able to kind of lead. Now there's different ways of leadership we can talk about here. Um, but I think, you know, so let's go through the different types of leadership because I think that's important. And then, you know, we, I think people can kind of tell what we would lean towards, what leadership is to us. But I think there's also recognizing there's just other leadership that is not like us. So the clear kind of answer, obviously for most of us, for most of us listening to, and also people like you and I would be leadership with, with leading by model, like modeling what leadership is about, um, using. Lead by example, I think is probably the correct term for that. But there's also leadership that is also effective. Sometimes I think you do need to bring in the leadership where almost like a dictatorship type of leadership. I'm not saying that that's how we wanna lead in any situ, sorry, for all occasions, but we know that there are those type A personalities that will lead with pain and a whip kind of thing. And I'm not, I wouldn't say that that's not. I wouldn't say that it's actually bad leadership though. I wanna clarify, that's why I wanna go down this road, is because I think that type of leadership is required at some time, in certain circumstances. And I mean by that, maybe like say in war, never been through war, never gone through it. But I think sometimes in difficult situation, you do need someone to really just gotta be able to push your tribe or your team to a point where they don't want to do this, because it's necessary.

Yeah.

So I think, or sometimes it's like an emergency situation where there's like, you know, it's life or death and no one's taking charge. You might have to be the one to tell someone to go do something. I remember learning first aid when I was, you know, a teenager as a lifeguard. And one of the things that the first thing you need to do is that you can't just go, hey, can you call the ambulance? Right? No, it's like, hey, you in the red shirt, go call 911 and come back to me. Right?

Hmm.

That's a dictator type of leadership, right? It's strong, it's gotta be forceful, because if it's not, that thing isn't getting done. And so I think that type of style of leadership is required in circumstances, but I think that doing that all the time and being that's the only style of leadership, I think that could go awry in most companies.

Yeah, John Maxwell, John C. Maxwell, who is an amazing author in this space, talks a lot about that. And he talks in terms of five levels of leadership. And what you highlighted there, really, to me, was what's called positional leadership, where someone's in a position. And as a result of that, by virtue of their rank, their position, their seniority, they have a skill set or I guess the permission to lead. And you're right in areas of chaos or disorder and people don't know what to do and what's going on, that level of certainty and that organization and bringing everybody into line helps move the platoon, the company, the team forward. And so that gives a certain level of structure and certainty to people. So and that's necessary and I agree with you totally that has to be the case and a lot of the times if you keep it so broad

Hmm.

It's kind of like trying to herd cats. You don't actually get anywhere. It's just, it's chaos basically. So there's a level of that. And however, long-term that authoritarian kind of an approach has its, has its challenges where people will buck up against it. People will start rebelling against it. There'll be discontent. So, and it's not really, it's, I agree with you and John C. Maxwell talks about a lot is it's, it's got a level. However, you need to keep evolving in order to. really talk about what leadership really is.

Yeah, absolutely. And those styles of leadership are such an important understand. You need to understand. Do you know what the other four are or?

All right. So there's. The other ones are then focused on position, then growth, then results. If we had a Jamie, we could pull them up and we'd expand them. But a lot of level five leadership to me is what's really fascinating because I always remember level one and five when I think about this, but level five is developing other leaders. So fundamentally, that's the ultimate objective of a leader is to develop other leaders and to mentor and to guide and to... basically invest in other people so that you're reproducing your skill sets and yourself.

Yeah, sorry to put you on the spot there, buddy. So I think I had this here while you chatted there. Autocratic, yeah, that's the, yep. Democratic, yep.

That's cool. Autocratic, yep, yep. That'd be positional one leadership, yep. So when you're starting to bring in more people into the situation

Democratic leadership style. And that's something, it's the opposite of autocratic, which is democratic is also sometimes known as participating in leadership. Characters are by the leader's choice of involving team members in decision-making process. The third one is, oh man, I'm gonna butch this. Why did I even put myself in this? It's because it's in French. I think it's lazard, farre, laissez faire. Oh my God. Leadership style.

Yep. Last affair. Which? Last affair. Yeah.

Why did I even try to do that? So anyways, apologies for that. That one is the lack of, so that is a leadership where essentially the lack of a clear leadership role where one individual may be the leader in title, the reality is the type of workplace is dynamic and that everyone is equal decision maker and every piece of input from the team is considered equally. Then there's transactional leadership style.

Hehehe Yep. Yep.

Transactional leadership style's primary goals are in order to structure in the workplace. Under this, self-motivating employees tend to be the most successful because the leader has created a structure and rigid environment where they use clear rewards and punishments to drive employees' performance. So obviously, that's transactional. And the last one is transformative or transformational leadership style. I believe that's level five. I think I learned it from Jim Collins, I think, from good to great.

Yep. Yep. Yeah, level five. Yeah, Jim Collins has got a model and Jim Collins and James C. Maxwell as well.

Yeah. Right, so transformative, which is, let me just sort of summarize this quickly, so that for just for, employees are guided by a clearly defined vision for success, which may be the leader's personal vision of the comp or the company's mission statement. And this kind of leadership inspires innovation and generally creates a positive workplace culture. Transforming leadership is characterized by the leader acting as a role model to employees is what we kind of talked about. close, consistent focus on the company vision and high value on the interpersonal relationships and inspiration as a tool to motivate employees. So I can do two roles.

Yep. Yep. So that, yeah, very much so. That was great. That was very good. And so fundamentally that's that to me is the big distinction because like you just said, sometimes your, your style has to be at that level one level. However, if you're, but have you ever noticed those scenarios and I've noticed that when people have an autocratic or level one level of approach, they get a high level of turnover, right? because they're not really developing their team, their people, you don't get people like you said earlier on about focusing on the long-term results. So you're not really looking at developing your people. So consequently, people are in, do a job for a while because they're told what they have to do and then they're out.

Yeah, absolutely. And and, and the reason why that is, it's usually because, you know, people don't want to be told like they don't want that they don't want to be feeling like in a culture that has that type of leadership, right? Because you can all you can sustain for a short period of time. Like I said, I think it's useful in those moments where it is when there's an emergency or there is certain situation when someone has to take that role. It's, it's perfect for that. But sustain.

Right? Hmm.

leadership like that is gonna be very, very difficult. As we were talking, it just reminds me of those group projects that we all put into at some times. And then you put in together, but then everybody gets together, but no one is taking leadership, right? No one wants to step up to the plate, either because they don't want that role, or they don't wanna overstep someone else's role. But if you know that awkward moment of those figuring out, or like, okay, someone's gotta take charge, right?

Yeah. Yep.

someone's gonna have to lead the conversation. Someone has to like be brave enough to not necessarily be the leader, but be able to kind of like start the conversation and guide the conversation. And to almost make it comfortable sometimes for the true leader to step in, right? To make it okay.

Yep. I'm glad you mentioned that about true leader because sometimes people will defer who the person who by role, i.e. position one is the leader and yet in a group, there's someone who actually really should be leading. So someone who may have the skill sets or the clarity about what needs to go could be the most junior person in the team. And it's about creating an environment in your team where that is celebrated, not from a point of view of someone's delegate, but if someone goes, here's what I believe we should do, here's how to follow through, follow me. Robin Sharma talks a lot about this when he says it's about the whole leaders without a title. So it's about developing leadership within a group, consensus, where irrespective of your title, now there are responsibilities in every role, but a really comfortable leader can open up the floor and go, okay. What do we really think about this? And who's going to run with this? And who's got some clarity that can help the group and team? And the leader in that role isn't necessarily the person who has all the answers, but who can facilitate the outcome and the results by virtue of basically the environment or the, what am I thinking of, the situation and also the collective wisdom of the group. That's the word I was after.

situation. Yeah, perfect. So now we get to find authenticity, we define leadership. How do we merge them together?

Yep. Right. Okay. Well, that's why we defined them first to hopefully link them all up and do that. So if you can look at it from a perspective of if you are clear and genuinely and sincere in the way that you present, you will be clear when there are situations where you have to defer into what you just said about leadership one, right? Hey, here's what we have to do. There's a situation we have to direct. However, at times where you may not have to be there, you then start influencing people through the sincere and real and genuine way, the way that you go about things. So if you find that you naturally have a person who is, who has great self-awareness in themselves, and I know what they do and do well, what they don't do, they can then lead a group, a team themselves with more effectiveness. That to me is about, if you know who you are, If you are expressing and showing up as your real person, you know how to lead yourself. You know what works for you, what doesn't, where you need support and what group of people you need around you to help you get the outcomes you want.

Yeah, I think that, you know, if you look at the word between authenticity and leadership, and I was just thinking about like, how do I say this? But reality is that it's really difficult to separate the two in a sense of what, you know, to running a business or running a company or running a team, but which come first? Like I'm gonna want to do the chicken and the egg, right? Does authenticity come first or the leadership? I don't know if I can separate that, but let's just say, I'm gonna take the side of that you kind of need to have leadership first. And here's why I would say it, and you might be different deferred, you know, differently. I would say you require to be have leadership first is because as a leader, and if you have the role as a leadership, that role is defined because you've earned the right. Sometimes, unfortunately, that's usually because you're the boss. And so you've from a title positional leadership, you automatically give yourself the title. But obviously that's not to me, that's not the leadership I'm talking about. I'm talking about the leadership and what we define that you earn the right to be the leader first. And I think that's super important because if you earn the right, which means that you have earned the trust of your team and earn the trust of every member of that team to, to believe in you, to lead them towards the promised land towards the division and the mission of where, where do you want to take this company and take this business and, but also has in return the, they are getting a benefit from that, not just in their pay, but also in their purpose and, and just in terms of their life worth, meaning that they are there to show up every day that by doing by being there, it somehow makes an impact for whatever they value. Usually is not necessarily the same values as the companies. And we have to respect that. And that's what a leader is understanding and knowing what each individual members if you've got a small team to know what they value and then really be able to translate and create a story, an outcome that allows them to understand that their values is part of the company's values and the company values is part of their own values. And if you can kind of somehow interconnect that and create a story that allows them to communicate this to them, then you have the team aboard and that's the leadership role and they trust you to lead them to the promised land, leading them towards this goal and guide them through that process. Now, I think the authenticity has to come in play now because the authenticity meaning that the leadership style that you actually lead this team with needs to be authentic to who you are as a person, not to become someone you think. is a leader, that'd be a better leader than you, it's that you have to lead from what you know best. And if you are an inspiring leader, then be that. But don't, if you're not an inspiring leader, don't be trying to be an inspiring leader because that's probably never gonna work. You probably need to inspire them, you know, in a different way, in a different manner. Some, you know, leadership has, there are great motivators. but some people aren't. Some people are more systematic leaders, which means that you're gonna have to prove your worth. You're gonna prove your leadership authenticity by laying out the foundations and laying out the system and process, right? Because usually they're kind of the opposite. I know of inspirational leadership, which means people who can inspire a motivated team to do anything, walk through walls, which is contrasting to someone who's not necessarily inspiring, motivating, but they're actually really good at processing. They know, like, step by step.

Yep.

exactly what the plan is. And they're like, by the book, they know exactly how to navigate through that. And I think in my family unit, I'm probably the more inspiring and motivating kind of leadership in our family, whereas my wife is the very more systematic and process driven, you know? And I think both of us in different circumstances will thrive, you know, in the leadership role, depending on what the circumstances requires and the situation requires. That's sort of what you're saying. And so I think that's...

Yep.

So that's when the authenticity kind of comes in place and marries with a leadership. Because I'll, I'll say one more point, which is the leadership needs to, the team needs to feel that they are doing what's right based on what the leader wants them to do in that circumstances. Right. And, but that's not going to come true if you're not authentic with yourself, which means that you're not authentic with your behavior and actions in your staff. which means they'll never really get to know your truth authenticity, which means that they're not really, they might be doing things that is not aligned with who you really are. Instead, they're aligned to what you want people to perceive you to be.

Yep. Yep. I was going to say, Lawrence, and that was, yeah, anybody just listening back to that as a synthesis would look back and go, that's a great summary of leadership, right? And fundamentally, I agree with you from my perspective in that leadership, it has to happen first. You have to earn the right and do it and to be able to, as we said earlier, lead self and then to be able to influence and impact and lead others. I'm guided by General. Norman Swartgoff, who was a five-star general in the US Army, who always said, the challenge of leadership is to get people, and I'm going to quote him here. I've heard it so many times. It's like forged into me, but it's like the challenge of leadership, underlying challenge of leadership is to get people, underline people to do more than they normally would and to function and rise above their peak level of potential, you know, to rise to their peak level of potential. So to me, that's the challenge of leadership is identifying. attributes and skills and talents in the individuals and helping them either through motivation, inspiration, seeing something in them that they might not see themselves and guide them and lead them. That's the leadership part of it. The authentic part of it, I agree with you. Once you establish and say, I'm in a role of leadership, how do I do that? That resonates in the way that feels real, genuine, sincere to me, because that to me is authenticity. So it's not an excuse for one or the other. It's about personalizing it to ensure that your impact and influence is optimized because you're being yourself and people will see that. And the example that came from this week, which is what started us on this journey in the first place was, the challenge I put to the coaching clients I was talking about was, okay, you're going through some challenges here right now. You don't have to share the specific details of what's going on with your team, but they need to know that you've got this under control. Because if you, if you look like you're a mess, like you just said about level one leadership, if you don't have control of the situation, the people around you are going to go, they're out. I don't, I'm a rudder ship here. I can't actually get direction from my leader. And so the challenge that I post to them was to go, okay, Let them know that, hey, you may have seen there'd be an element. I've been challenged. I've been stressed. I totally own it. And I'm working through that. What you need to know is I've found a strategy and I'm going to work through this, I'm committed to moving forward. So that tells them it's not oversharing what's going on. It's about authentically going. Yeah. Okay. I've been challenged this week. I'm human. Like you've just said, I'm not perfect. I have my own foibles and challenges and struggles, but what you need to know is I'm on, I'm on, I'm on track and. I'm basically doing the best I can. And as a leader, I'm showing you that these elements are true. They're not like, I'm not perfect. I'm not a robot. I do have challenges that I face myself just like you. And I'm showing you that so that you can basically humanize me as a leader, but also understand that I've got a role here as well. So, um, and what they then interestingly, they went and did that with their team and the feedback over and above what they expected was exactly that. It wasn't so much that they were shocked that their team were having doubts about whether they as a leader were going to be able to pull through. Not that the team couldn't, but rather that, are you, are you, you know, who do you need to be and were you being the person that you needed to be to navigate us through these choppy sort of waters?

Yeah, and it's a perfect blend of making sure that the authenticity will call vulnerability in this particular instance, that they have to show that to make sure that you're a normal human being as well, just like them. But at the same time, the team also needs to see leadership to know that you're actually decisive enough to actually take action, right? It's not just one or the other, it's the marrying of the two. And as we end this part here, I would love to kind of maybe move towards something of more action steps.

Yep.

Because I feel like the one of the things that kind of came up for me that you know, if I was on listening to this, some people would probably pose the question or an argument is this, well, I'm not a natural born leader, or I'm not a leader. And I what you know, my thoughts on that is that be very careful with those words, in terms of natural born leader, or I think every single by least my belief is that every single one of us can be a leader. But I think I would question what your, if I was to ask the question would be more like, what's your definition of leader, right? How do you perceive to be leader? Because when someone usually says I'm not a natural born leader, they already have like this picture, right? Of like Mel Gibson and Braveheart, you know, leading a men, you know, in Scotland, you know, to rebel against the army. Like that's the leadership that they kind of see or gladiator, you know.

Yeah.

you know, with Russell Crowe being, you know, leading his band of men in Gladiator in the ring. But that's, that's what they're comparing themselves. And if you're comparing yourself to that, yeah, most people are not like that. But that's not what we're defining leadership. That is one style of leisure. That is a leadership. But the thing is, we've got to go back to what we talked about earlier, which is to develop that leadership. I think we all have the capabilities. So number one, just know that you have the capability. Number two, though, is to recognize that if you don't feel you can lead a group of people.

Yep. Yep.

then you got to take the steps backwards and go, okay, well, can you lead one other person? If you can't feel like you can do that, then really comes down to, are you leading yourself? And so leadership could just mean leading yourself. That's it. Like if you go through this whole life and learn to lead yourself, that's leadership. And I think that's the part that we need to learn is that we have to take control of our lives to go, we need to lead ourselves.

Hmm. Hmm. Yep.

Meaning you have to lead through difficult times. You have to get yourself uncomfortable. You have to put yourself in positions where you are doing things that you normally wouldn't have done because that's what leaders do. Leading yourself into success and lead yourself out of failure and navigate through difficulties through life that is authentic leadership.

Yeah, you're right Lawrence, when you talk about the examples that you cited, there's the confusion that it needs to be an extroverted, loud form of drill sergeant leadership. And that doesn't have to be the case because there's just so many empowered, introvert leaders in there as well too. And I remember reading, I think it was Jim Collins' book specifically, and they highlighted the rock star CEOs that they parachuted into organizations. statistically did worse than the introverts who just got in there and did the job and influenced people. So it's not the perception of leadership is that you have to be super confident and super loud and that's not necessarily the case. The whole purpose of leadership, I would go and say you're right, one person, but fundamentally everybody has the capacity to be a leader. Whether it's a leader of themselves, leader in their family, leader in their... their civic groups, whether in their sporting clubs, whether in their communities, et cetera, et cetera. And like you said, starts with one, then it goes to a group, a collection, a city, a town. And that's, you don't parachute into being a leader of the free world or a country without having developed the skills along the way. And this is what you're talking about, right? The leadership is an intention. It's a conscious decision to expand self because in life. We either go through contraction and expansion. And when we're contracting, we're staying small, we're not growing, we're keeping the status quo. And yet when you choose to lead, when you choose to make a decision that takes you out of your comfort zone, you're expanding and you're expanding at a rate of knots. And just because you're a leader does not mean that you know exactly about what's going on. You have every answer, but it's you have taken the decisive step to expand self and lean into an area that is a growth opportunity. That's really what leadership is as a component. And that then becomes a habit, a trait, an identity, a personality that person develops because by virtue of the intention that they've expanded themselves. So to me, that's how leadership's done and develops. It's like all of those. Are people natural leaders? I don't know, you know, but I've seen many people who wouldn't have classed themselves as leaders become extraordinary leaders because of... the intention and discipline to expand and grow on themselves. So either or in there. And really what I would have hoped, I'm going to start closing down on this. But if there was an outcome that I wanted people to have, and you talked about action steps, perhaps you can finish off with those there, Lawrence. But for me, I'd want people, if they're going to be considering about being a leader and specifically focusing on authentic leadership is to really have a level of self-awareness about themselves. and understand what kind of person they are at their core fundamentally, so that they can then lead themselves and other people from that place. I think, you know, we talked about integrity. We talked about you. You talked about the long, the long focus on the long term results rather than transaction. I think there has to be great listening skills that you've got to have. But paramount to any type of leadership here, it's got to be real, authentic and sincere way that is. Really you, not a carbon copy of somebody that you're not.

Yeah, like a lot of a lot of my clients come up to me, you know, or question when they first start with me is that one of the major things that they really want to do is be a better leader. And you know, the thing is, is that we always throw back at is that being a leader is takes courage. Like it takes commitment. It's not it's not for the faint of heart. And this is why I think a lot of people shy away from it. not because you got to stand in front of a room, not because you have to like, you have to make all the decisions. Yeah, you have to do all of that. But because being a leader means that you also have, you can, you'll take the glory, but you also got to take the blame. You got to take the hits when things don't go right. And people shy away from that. And so one of the most important things, if you want to learn to be a stronger leader, like we all said, we even, we encourage you to do so. you know, whether it be small groups or large groups, it is irrelevant. It's more that I think the world needs more leaders, more than ever. And in order to be that leader, you have to find courage and you have to find certainty within yourself. And you're not there, this is why I'm suggesting is go back to lead yourself. You gotta figure it out because if you don't, you're just gonna cruise through life and not really knowing what happened at the end because you let someone else's leadership guide you. And I don't think you're gonna be too happy with that life. And you have anybody in, who no matter what age at the moment, has that ability and time to be able to go, you know, this is important enough for me to make a decision on how I wanna live my life. This is important enough for me to learn to live, to figure out what is right for me to do right now, in this moment, take action, to shape and change the direction of my life. And we've said this in multiple times in various podcasts, which is like, it only takes one degree, change today. that would change the course of your life and where you're gonna end up 20, 30 years from now. You can't see it, you're just gonna have to trust that change is enough, that your courage, your stepping into something is gonna change where you're gonna be in 10 years time. And that trust will come if you trust in yourself and that certainty that you have. But I think this leadership role is such an important element that each and every single one of you listening or watching needs to take a good shot at it, I think. And there are, just because you want to test the boundaries of yourself, I really feel like everybody deserves a chance to be able to lead because there's something about each and every single one of us, I believe, that is important for us to lead someone towards. There's enough experience and there's enough guidance. And we all want to help people, let's face it. Like we do all generally, traditionally want to help people, I think this is one way to help people is actually guide someone, not forcefully, but guide them if they want to listen. or guide them if they want to be, um, to, to be helped. And we had that opportunity to shape the world that way. So I hope you guys got a lot out of that. We talked a lot about authenticity. We talked a lot about leadership and then we marry those together and what it means to us. We gave you some actual steps to really put that together, to figure out your way of what authentic leadership means to you. So I hope that was valuable to you. If it is, please like. and share this with others because that's the most important. That's our form of ask if that you share this podcast with someone because I believe that someone else would probably benefit from this, who's looking towards being a better leader, but also realizing it's not always a perfect journey. So until next time, this is Bobby Sabe, Jim and I here, the art of imperfection. We'll talk to you soon.